New ATF rule for firearm sales

[MNGrouser]

In Minnesota it is a crime to sell illegal controlled substances, but it is also a crime to sell controlled substances without affixing the appropriate tax stamp. I've never prosecuted a drug dealer who DID collect taxes and affix the appropriate stamp.

 

[Fordguy]

I don't have a law degree, but I'm pretty sure that Bruen establishes that firearm regulation must be based on history and tradition. Americans have a long standing history and tradition of being able to sell their privately owned firearms collections at market value without being an ffl or considered a "dealer".

If I happen to sell my 1996 dodge diesel, in today's market it would be worth a lot more than I paid for it many years ago. That doesn't make me a dealer.

Also, if people do have to obtain an ffl and become a licensed commercial entity, does that mean that they're now able to claim all firearms related expenses as tax deductions? Lol.

 

[Red Letters]

 

[Yoder]

Stop worrying about nonsense laws. I don't care what they pass anymore.

 

[fwafwow]

“Engaged in the Business”
I wonder how many agents will be keeping an eye on the classified forum?

I’m not concerned. The final rule seems to be as anticipated when the proposed rule was referenced in another thread -
Post in thread 'ATF redefining firearm dealer'
https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/atf-redefining-firearm-dealer.336412/post-3372646

I think the key is profit motive and personal collection sales seem to be pretty clear exceptions, absent that motive.

 

[ThorM465]

Did anyone get far enough into this 466 pages of tyrannical word vomit to the point where they define "engaged in business?" I got 49 pages in before I had enough.

 

[fwafwow]

Yes. It starts on page 457. The most important part starts on page 461.

 

[fwafwow]

466 pages is a lot, but the new rule is only about the last 10 pages.

This Q&A about the rule is still long (19 pages), but it's written in a format that may be more helpful - https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...rule2022r-17f-questionsandanswerspdf/download

 

[OKHunter84]

No wonder that hasn't been talked much about.

Kicked his door in at 6a. Surprised he started shooting? Like his brother said afterwards, dude made 250k. Not like he was selling Glocks on the street to get by. Why would you not approach him in broad daylight or at work?

 

[Rokbar]

Remember voting has consequences! So if I sell 1,000 guns for the same thing I bought them for I am not making a profit?

 

[fwafwow]

Remember voting has consequences! So if I sell 1,000 guns for the same thing I bought them for I am not making a profit?

I don’t think the profit, or absence thereof, is conclusive.

 

[Thegman]

I don't think you would be allowed to trade a firearm for sex either.

Maybe in Nevada??

 

[DanM]

Not good

 

[z987k]

If I happen to sell my 1996 dodge diesel, in today's market it would be worth a lot more than I paid for it many years ago. That doesn't make me a dealer.

I'd be surprised if it is worth more if you adjust for inflation.

 

[adamsjordan78]

Take it away piece by piece

 

[Forestryguy]

Did they ever define "occasionally" in the text or is that up to the discretion of an agent, judge, DA, or jury? Can we claim that anything purchased is for collecting since the price and value of most everything continues to rise? I have single-ply toilet paper that may be worth $100 a sheet one day.

 

[fwafwow]

Did they ever define "occasionally" in the text or is that up to the discretion of an agent, judge, DA, or jury? Can we claim that anything purchased is for collecting since the price and value of most everything continues to rise? I have single-ply toilet paper that may be worth $100 a sheet one day.

I think if people read at least the Q&A it will seem less scary.

To answer your question:

“Q. Is the term “occasional” defined in the BCSA or the final rule when addressing sales,
exchanges, or purchases of firearms?
A. No. The term “occasional” is not defined in the regulatory text; however, the plain and
ordinary meaning of that term is “infrequent or irregular occurrence.” However, regular or
routine sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms (even part-time) for the enhancement of a
personal collection or for a hobby would not fall within the meaning of that term.”

 

[Forestryguy]

I think if people read at least the Q&A it will seem less scary.

To answer your question:

“Q. Is the term “occasional” defined in the BCSA or the final rule when addressing sales,
exchanges, or purchases of firearms?
A. No. The term “occasional” is not defined in the regulatory text; however, the plain and
ordinary meaning of that term is “infrequent or irregular occurrence.” However, regular or
routine sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms (even part-time) for the enhancement of a
personal collection or for a hobby would not fall within the meaning of that term.”

That still seems pretty grey. Occasional, infrequent or irregular occurrences can mean different things to different people.

Personally tired of laws that do not spell things out very clearly, at an 8th-grade reading level, so that every person can read it and interpret the law, clearly. They should also be limited to a max of two pages double-spaced.

 

[*zap*]

They were going to gun shows to try and entrap folks 15 years ago.

 

[Fordguy]

I'd be surprised if it is worth more if you adjust for inflation.

Then you'd probably be surprised. I got a heck of a deal on it. In any case, I'm not sure that inflation factors into their judgement of profit.

To top that, plenty of us make upgrades to our firearms in terms of aftermarket stocks, barrel modifications and more. How many people keep every receipt from those purchases In order to justify a particular price to satisfy the government that no profit was made on the sale of a personal firearm?

I'm sure I've probably missed some posts, but from what I gather there's a lot of flexible wording used in the rule to allow for interpretation.