ATF redefining firearm dealer

[Elk97]

If this has already been posted I didn't see it. The ATF is proposing to change the definition of a firearms dealer. This will essentially prevent anyone from selling face to face (according to GOA). The gun grabbers have organized and have flooded the comments with an overwhelming percentage in favor of making this change. Comments close on Dec 7. I urge you to go to the site and make a comment (only takes a minute).
Here is the address:

Regulations.gov

www.regulations.gov

I just said something like "I oppose this re-definition of a firearms dealer. It is unconstitutional and will prohibit law abiding citizens from exercising their 2nd amendment rights"

 

[SoOreHunter]

Good watch! Added my comment

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[5MilesBack]

So, without reading a years worth from that link, it would appear that as long as you're not selling for a profit, you're good to go. The ATF better have good info and records to be able to prove whether you're selling for a profit or not. That's a lot of work to go through to determine that, and then come down in the end that it wasn't a profit anyway. They'll probably need to hire another 89,000 agents to track all this info and keep up on all the supposed dealers they're following.

 

[Madstop14]

Thanks for posting

 

[def90]

So, without reading a years worth from that link, it would appear that as long as you're not selling for a profit, you're good to go. The ATF better have good info and records to be able to prove whether you're selling for a profit or not. That's a lot of work to go through to determine that, and then come down in the end that it wasn't a profit anyway. They'll probably need to hire another 89,000 agents to track all this info and keep up on all the supposed dealers they're following.

Won't matter after you've had to pay for a lawyer to defend yourself.

 

[def90]

So, without reading a years worth from that link, it would appear that as long as you're not selling for a profit, you're good to go. The ATF better have good info and records to be able to prove whether you're selling for a profit or not. That's a lot of work to go through to determine that, and then come down in the end that it wasn't a profit anyway. They'll probably need to hire another 89,000 agents to track all this info and keep up on all the supposed dealers they're following.

So to add to my previous post.. It's always been legal to sell personal firearms as an individual.. lets say you bought a bunch of rifles back in the early 80's and you're at the end of your life and now you want to sell everything off. Everyone knows that if you had bought anything more than a few years ago outside of a run of the mill shotgun or hunting rifle that prices and values have gone up. So if I bought let's say an FN FAL G Series rifle in 1965 for $200 and I sell it now for market value at $12,000 I need to have an FFL in order to do so? That's f'ing stupid. Gun owners are their own worst enemies.

 

[Marbles]

It says nothing about earning a profit making one a dealer, it says that if the persons primary intent is to earn a profit, they are a dealer. Large difference between those two and it invalidates some of the concerns above.

Here is the exact wording for what would constitute primary intent to earn a profit. All of the below sound like a business, rather than legally buying and selling to improve a personal collection.

Rather than establishing a minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold, this rule proposes to clarify that, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, a person will be presumed to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms when the person:

(1) sells or offers for sale firearms, and also represents to potential buyers or otherwise demonstrates a willingness and ability to purchase and sell additional firearms;  (63)

(2) spends more money or its equivalent on purchases of firearms for the purpose of resale than the person's reported taxable gross inome during the applicable period of time;  (64)

(3) repetitively purchases for the purpose of resale, or sells or offers for sale firearms—
(A) through straw or sham businesses, (65) or individual straw purchasers or sellers;  (66) or
(B) that cannot lawfully be purchased or possessed, including:
(i) stolen firearms (18 U.S.C. 922(j));  (67)
(ii) firearms with the licensee's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered (18 U.S.C. 922(k); 26 U.S.C. 5861(i));  (68)
(iii) firearms imported in violation of law (18 U.S.C. 922(l), 22 U.S.C. 2778, or 26 U.S.C. 5844, 5861(k)); or
(iv) machineguns or other weapons defined as firearms under 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) that were not properly registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (18 U.S.C. 922(o); 26 U.S.C. 5861(d));  (69)

(4) repetitively sells or offers for sale firearms—
(A) within 30 days after they were purchased;  (70)
(B) that are new, or like new in their original packaging;  (71) or
(C) that are of the same or similar kind ( i.e., make/manufacturer, model, caliber/gauge, and action) and type ( i.e., the classification of a firearm as a rifle, shotgun, revolver, pistol, frame, receiver, machinegun, silencer, destructive device, or other firearm);  (72)

(5) who, as a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee) sells or offers for sale firearms that were in the business inventory of such licensee at the time the license was terminated ( i.e., license revocation, denial of license renewal, license expiration, or surrender of license), and were not transferred to a personal collection in accordance with 18 U.S.C. 923(c) and 27 CFR 478.125a; or

(6) who, as a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of a former licensee) sells or offers for sale firearms that were transferred to a personal collection of such former licensee or responsible person prior to the time the license was terminated, unless: (A) the firearms were received and transferred without any intent to willfully evade the restrictions placed on licensees by chapter 44, title 18, of the United States Code; and (B) one year has passed from the date of transfer to the personal collection.

 

[roadrunner]

The "honest" interpretation is that if you buy a 7mm Rem Mag on Black Friday at a discounted price from $750 to $550, don't sell it in 6 months or sell it 2 years later for $650 to your squeaky clean BFF.

According to the "abstract", over half the comments submitted in support of the rule comes from current FFL's.

I can see how this rule is still could easily cause heartache for someone not meaning to break the law.

On flip side though, it could be quite humorous for it to apply to so-called government sanctioned gun buyback events

 

[fwafwow]

It says nothing about earning a profit making one a dealer, it says that if the persons primary intent is to earn a profit, they are a dealer. Large difference between those two and it invalidates some of the concerns above.

Here is the exact wording for what would constitute primary intent to earn a profit. All of the below sound like a business, rather than legally buying and selling to improve a personal collection.

Rather than establishing a minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold, this rule proposes to clarify that, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, a person will be presumed to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms when the person:

(1) sells or offers for sale firearms, and also represents to potential buyers or otherwise demonstrates a willingness and ability to purchase and sell additional firearms;  (63)

(2) spends more money or its equivalent on purchases of firearms for the purpose of resale than the person's reported taxable gross inome during the applicable period of time;  (64)

(3) repetitively purchases for the purpose of resale, or sells or offers for sale firearms—
(A) through straw or sham businesses, (65) or individual straw purchasers or sellers;  (66) or
(B) that cannot lawfully be purchased or possessed, including:
(i) stolen firearms (18 U.S.C. 922(j));  (67)
(ii) firearms with the licensee's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered (18 U.S.C. 922(k); 26 U.S.C. 5861(i));  (68)
(iii) firearms imported in violation of law (18 U.S.C. 922(l), 22 U.S.C. 2778, or 26 U.S.C. 5844, 5861(k)); or
(iv) machineguns or other weapons defined as firearms under 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) that were not properly registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (18 U.S.C. 922(o); 26 U.S.C. 5861(d));  (69)

(4) repetitively sells or offers for sale firearms—
(A) within 30 days after they were purchased;  (70)
(B) that are new, or like new in their original packaging;  (71) or
(C) that are of the same or similar kind ( i.e., make/manufacturer, model, caliber/gauge, and action) and type ( i.e., the classification of a firearm as a rifle, shotgun, revolver, pistol, frame, receiver, machinegun, silencer, destructive device, or other firearm);  (72)

(5) who, as a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee) sells or offers for sale firearms that were in the business inventory of such licensee at the time the license was terminated ( i.e., license revocation, denial of license renewal, license expiration, or surrender of license), and were not transferred to a personal collection in accordance with 18 U.S.C. 923(c) and 27 CFR 478.125a; or

(6) who, as a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of a former licensee) sells or offers for sale firearms that were transferred to a personal collection of such former licensee or responsible person prior to the time the license was terminated, unless: (A) the firearms were received and transferred without any intent to willfully evade the restrictions placed on licensees by chapter 44, title 18, of the United States Code; and (B) one year has passed from the date of transfer to the personal collection.

You beat me to it. No material changes at at hand here. The law has been changed a few times since 1968 and the NPRM is announcing regulations to conform some of those statutory changes. In addition to the above, merely making a profit doesn’t make one a dealer who needs a license.

Here’s a good portion:

“At the same time, the Department recognizes that certain transactions are not likely to be sufficient to support a presumption that a person is engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. For this reason, the proposed rule also includes examples of when a person is not presumed to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. Specifically, under this proposed rule, a person would not be presumed to be engaged in the business requiring a license as a dealer when the person transfers firearms only as bona fide gifts, (73) or occasionally  (74) sells firearms only to obtain more valuable, desirable, or useful firearms for their personal collection or hobby, unless their conduct also demonstrates a predominant intent to earn a profit.”

 

[Yoder]

I don't care what they pass anymore. I'm not doing it.