Need assistance diagnosing 1911 issue

[RockAndSage]

Grease is a base oil that is thickened with additives to prevent flow. In guns we want flow.

That's another common misunderstanding - part of the problem is we use the same word to describe the gunk on the back of the stove as we do for the modern complex lubricating greases that were invented in the 1920s. But it's not at all how complex greases work.

Think of grease as a sponge - the "thickener" matrix is the sponge part, and it has different oils and additives sucked up inside it. Each oil and additive is selected and proportioned to achieve specific performance properties needed on a specific machine type, when engineered from the ground up. The proportions of the oils (as well as their individual viscosities) vs amount of sponge matrix is what determines how "thick" a grease is, along with how much flow it does or doesn't have. Again, you can have these modern complex greases be as thick as a block of clay, or as light as cooking oil. That's what the NLGI scale is about - rating thickness and, to some degree, flow.

The key understanding, is to think of grease as a "lubricant deployment device", serving as pump, gasket, and reservoir, all at once. In a system without an actual pump, you want that grease to minimize the friction between the moving surfaces, while also staying put. The oils and additives deploy while work is occurring on those surfaces, and then start getting sucked back up as the work stops, over time. This is a property of good greases called thixotropy. And by staying put during the machine's cycling, the top part of the grease is acting as a seal and a gasket to protect the lower levels from air, dirt, and oxidizing agents. That gasket/seal property is an important factor too - a good, properly weighted grease in a gun will keep sand, unburned powder, and brass shavings at the surface of the grease, without allowing it to get to the bearing surfaces to cause friction.

Regarding flow specifically, guns are unsealed machines - if you have flow, especially with a thin or a hot oil, it flows away from the friction surfaces. Both from gravity and the cycling. This one property is why the homebrew lightweight grease I share above will shoot about 2000 rounds on one application, while remoil will get through 100-200 on a given gun before flowing away, thinning out, and drying out.

 

[jaredg]

That's another common misunderstanding - part of the problem is we use the same word to describe the gunk on the back of the stove as we do for the modern complex lubricating greases that were invented in the 1920s. But it's not at all how complex greases work.

Think of grease as a sponge - the "thickener" matrix is the sponge part, and it has different oils and additives sucked up inside it. Each oil and additive is selected and proportioned to achieve specific performance properties needed on a specific machine type, when engineered from the ground up. The proportions of the oils (as well as their individual viscosities) vs amount of sponge matrix is what determines how "thick" a grease is, along with how much flow it does or doesn't have. Again, you can have these modern complex greases be as thick as a block of clay, or as light as cooking oil. That's what the NLGI scale is about - rating thickness and, to some degree, flow.

The key understanding, is to think of grease as a "lubricant deployment device", serving as pump, gasket, and reservoir, all at once. In a system without an actual pump, you want that grease to minimize the friction between the moving surfaces, while also staying put. The oils and additives deploy while work is occurring on those surfaces, and then start getting sucked back up as the work stops, over time. This is a property of good greases called thixotropy. And by staying put during the machine's cycling, the top part of the grease is acting as a seal and a gasket to protect the lower levels from air, dirt, and oxidizing agents. That gasket/seal property is an important factor too - a good, properly weighted grease in a gun will keep sand, unburned powder, and brass shavings at the surface of the grease, without allowing it to get to the bearing surfaces to cause friction.

Regarding flow specifically, guns are unsealed machines - if you have flow, especially with a thin or a hot oil, it flows away from the friction surfaces. Both from gravity and the cycling. This one property is why the homebrew lightweight grease I share above will shoot about 2000 rounds on one application, while remoil will get through 100-200 on a given gun before flowing away, thinning out, and drying out.

Wow, that is some PhD level knowledge right there. I used to own part of a lubricant company (specialized in grease) and you explained that better than I've ever seen it worded. Thanks for the mini-lesson in lubricants

 

[RockAndSage]

Sometime you should read the spec sheets grease manufacturers publish. They will list the base oil, the viscosity of the thickeners, and the additive package. They also have great details such as the drop point, oil separation temperature, and how long it takes for the ADDITIVES TO HARDEN.

Yes, they do list many important ratings/results/properties, and components. They're packed with great info for people who know how to read and interpret them, especially in relation to a given application. I'd love to see one that lists "how long it takes for additives to harden", especially if it specifies exactly which additive that might be, and under what conditions it might occur (ambient, open-air, operating temps, etc).

 

[RockAndSage]

All of that is in the grease data sheets.

Go ahead and show me one listing when the "additives harden".

Oil always provides less friction than grease of the same base oil,

Keep in mind, I'm trying to share good info in a friendly and well-intentioned manner.

Similar to other things shared above, this too is a misunderstanding though - oil does not always provide less friction, even if the oil is identical as an independent base stock to one in a lubricating grease, suspended in a thickener.

The reason, is because friction is measured in both static and dynamic circumstances.

Materials and their surfaces have a static coefficient of friction, and a dynamic one.

It's also a bit of a spectrum - as velocity increases, a material surface's dynamic coefficient of friction becomes more dominant in the realities of what's going on in that machine.

When oil is between a pair of static surfaces, it has less thickness or substance than a lubricating grease - meaning, the surfaces have more contact with each other and more friction when oil is what is between them, compared to a lubricating grease.

Lubricating greases also often have what are called "boundary lubricants", which are particles of extremely slick, thin solids - think teflon, molybdenum, etc. Those lay over the tops of the asperities of the metal (this looks like sandpaper under a microscope), and literally reduce the static and dynamic coefficients of friction on those surfaces, with zero movement of the parts necessary. Not many oils have this, as these boundary lubricants, as solids, tend to be heavier than the oil and just settle to the bottom of a bottle, meaning you have to shake them to mix it up properly. But these boundary lubricants are attracted to the metal surfaces with an electromagnetic charge in most cases, and just migrate to the tops of the asperities. Rare in most oils (especially gun oils), yet extremely common in greases.

Once the parts start moving against each other, oil still doesn't mean less friction between those parts - not until the parts get up to a speed fast enough to have them hydroplaning on that fluid film. This is a principle called the Stribeck Curve - the lighter the fluid, the faster the parts have to be travelling to float on top of that fluid film. Only when you really hit that point do oils start resulting in less friction than properly selected greases. It's like hydroplaning your car. And again, the thinner the fluid, the faster the parts have to go to float on top of that film. This is why a heavier motor oil works better in guns than something thin like remoil.

Even then, oils only float those parts well when the parts are spinning in the same direction - because once those parts stop moving to go into a different direction, you fall out of that hydroplaning dynamic, and down into what's called the "boundary lubrication regime", where you have the moving parts grinding against each other in physical contact again. This is also why a properly engineered lubricant - for a machine that cycles back and forth - will have a boundary lubricant package added to its formulation.

It's a similar reason why stop-and-go traffic is harder on your vehicle than driving 70mph on the highway for hours. Every time moving parts stop their motion, they're grinding against each other.
With machines designed for using oils, that oil is moved by pumps, behind gaskets and seals. Take away those lubricant support systems, and what happens? Pretty quickly, those parts are grinding against each other.

Do guns have gaskets, and oil pumps?

Grease doesn't need a lubricant support system - because it is one. In guns, that back-and-forth travel just can't keep the parts separated on a fluid film of oil very long, and drop out of it at the front and back of travel, every time. In guns, there is a tiny window at the peak of part movement velocities where thick oils can hit that hydroplaning effect, but every time the parts go back and forth, stopping and going, you get that grind again if you just have oil.

 

[270-300]

Yes, they do list many important ratings/results/properties, and components. They're packed with great info for people who know how to read and interpret them, especially in relation to a given application. I'd love to see one that lists "how long it takes for additives to harden", especially if it specifies exactly which additive that might be, and under what conditions it might occur (ambient, open-air, operating temps, etc).

Right here.

This isnt rocket science. None of your paragraphs contain any relevent information. A simple single page of specifications from any grease manufacturer has much more accurate information. This particular grease specified an 80 minute life at the maximum temperature operating range. Im sure you will have another 20,000 words arguing with yourself what happens to grease after it has run too long at too high of a temperature.... But for those of us for whom it matters none of this is a mystery.

 

[270-300]

Wow, that is some PhD level knowledge right there. I used to own part of a lubricant company (specialized in grease) and you explained that better than I've ever seen it worded. Thanks for the mini-lesson in lubricants

The account your calling a phd was called out on another thread last week for being a teenager using ai.

 

[270-300]

So in short, the op took apart a gun, bent the extractor, did not know what an ejector is, put a stiffer recoil spring in, wonders why the slide short strokes, thinks brass not leaving the slide is a stove pipe, and some guy wants to type 20,000 word paragraphs about how the gun manufacturers have no clue how to oil their own guns.

 

[Steve300xcw]

You are getting a bit emotional over somebodys lube preference..

 

[43.6N]

So in short, the op took apart a gun, bent the extractor, did not know what an ejector is, put a stiffer recoil spring in, wonders why the slide short strokes, thinks brass not leaving the slide is a stove pipe, and some guy wants to type 20,000 word paragraphs about how the gun manufacturers have no clue how to oil their own guns.

And one jackass added nothing of value

 

[RockAndSage]

Right here.

This isnt rocket science. None of your paragraphs contain any relevent information. A simple single page of specifications from any grease manufacturer has much more accurate information. This particular grease specified an 80 minute life at the maximum temperature operating range. Im sure you will have another 20,000 words arguing with yourself what happens to grease after it has run too long at too high of a temperature.... But for those of us for whom it matters none of this is a mystery.

Still waiting for you to show me an SDS where it says "how long it takes for the ADDITIVES TO HARDEN." You know, the thing you claimed in quotes I've posted a couple of times, from your post that you've already deleted.

It's unfortunate you're taking that info as some kind of personal attack, but those who want the information will benefit from it. Yes, it's a lot of science - every speck of which directly relates to maximizing gun reliability.

 

[Tommyhaak]

It looks like your extractor tension is too tight. The extractors don’t just drop in and work- they have to be adjusted to work in each pistol.

Also, your extractor may need material removed where it interacts with the case rim. In some cases there is more material here which can “pinch” the case and prevent reliable ejections. These need to be fit to the pistol.

Some decent discussion and pictures here:

Steve in Allentown Extractor fitting

Because of Photobucket's new policy of not allowing common folks like me to link our pictures on their site into discussion forums unless we gave them $400 all of my pictures here have been blocked. So at the request of several members I've spent time over the course of the past couple of weeks...

www.1911forum.com