Muscular Endurance for Mountain Athletes

[Josh Gray]

Agree - and I've found it to be the case. In my experience, I can get a very good, very localized ME workout through the gym-based workout and still have the energy to go on an hourish run in the afternoon. You can also control all the variables to dial in the workout really well. (Variables being the number of reps, number of sets, rest between sets, etc.) If I do a pack workout, it tends to be overall longer and the general fatigue is much higher. Don't want to do a run in the evening.

For what it's worth, I think the pack workouts (and associated fatigue) are critical to do before a hunt. (Or uphill intervals when training for races rather than hunts.) But for a limited period of time, like 8 or 10 weeks, rather than year-round. The gym-based workouts allow you to do regulated ME workouts during a base phase (12-16 weeks like 6 months out from the event) while maintaining a pretty high volume of aerobic training. When the time comes to jump into the event-specific ME workouts (pack carries for hunt or uphill intervals for races), you do so with a good base level of ME so you can really crank those workouts. Training to train, so to speak.

For what it's worth - not that anyone cares - I did find that the gym-based ME workouts neglected my calves, so when I jumped into the pack or intervals my calves ended up fatiguing much more quickly than quads/hamstrings/hips. So I started jump-roping as a warmup, which really helped. It's also supposed to help strengthen the achilles tendon, so I see it as part of my newly-old-man routine to keep my achilles firmly attached to my heel - way too many people pop their achilles and that gives me the shivers...

I “popped” my achilles about 14 years ago and was a terrible experience. I too added calves at the end of my gym ME sessions earlier this year using MTI’s Tabata calve raises.

20” rapid calve raises, 10” hold at the top x2
Rest 30-45” and repeat.

 

[mtwarden]

The two hills I'm using has me on my toes (calves fully engaged) probably 25-35% of the route; thankfully not 25-35% straight—nicely sprinkled out instead.

I was purposely trying to avoid something so steep that you're on your toes the entire way—you'd have calves like Conan , but a lot less work on the quads/hamstrings.

 

[P Carter]

The two hills I'm using has me on my toes (calves fully engaged) probably 25-35% of the route; thankfully not 25-35% straight—nicely sprinkled out instead.

I was purposely trying to avoid something so steep that you're on your toes the entire way—you'd have calves like Conan , but a lot less work on the quads/hamstrings.

Truth!

I have one route that is up a steep-but-not-ridiculous trail, down the other side and back up. That side is ridiculous - ~2,000 feet in a mile. The second pull engages the calves the entire way up; my eyes are watering by the time I get back up to the top.

Coincidentally, last year I got a "modern" suit and had to get it tailored because my calves were larger in circumference than my knees; the lower legs wouldn't fit over my calves. Apparently that isn't all that common. Conan probably has that problem all the time.

 

[brolo]

I’ve read through this thread a few times and breezed through the links, but don’t know that I’m hitting the ME focus. Im at sea level with zero hills, so I have been using weighted lunges, step ups, and sled push. Im stringy with a good aerobic base, but my HR is jumping right to Z3-4 at 25-50% BW. I’ve generally been deliberate about keeping a slow grinding pace, but still end up out of Z2. For you guys, does the weight feel heavy with an immediate low burn when you start? Or does the heavy/burn feeling gradually kick in towards the end of the workout?

 

[mtwarden]

Not so much that the weight feels heavy, but that you slowly start to get a burn in the legs; for me that progresses and definitely burns more as I get closer to the top.

Not sure how you determined your zones, but it's possible your zones may be off? I've simply gone by the "can you carry on a conversation" for mine. There are some tests that are done in a laboratory setting that are probably the most accurate. I've thought about doing that at some point just to see how close I am.

Also from what I read w/ ME is that ~25% of BW is probably the highest you should need and to build slowly to that. 50% is quite a bit of weight.

The bottom line is it's probably all good as long as you can adequately recover and keep up the Zone 2 training

 

[Josh Gray]

I’ve read through this thread a few times and breezed through the links, but don’t know that I’m hitting the ME focus. Im at sea level with zero hills, so I have been using weighted lunges, step ups, and sled push. Im stringy with a good aerobic base, but my HR is jumping right to Z3-4 at 25-50% BW. I’ve generally been deliberate about keeping a slow grinding pace, but still end up out of Z2. For you guys, does the weight feel heavy with an immediate low burn when you start? Or does the heavy/burn feeling gradually kick in towards the end of the workout?

Don’t know how your breaking up your circuit but I would say that using more than 25% body weight for lunges is def gonna move away from ME and more towards anaerobic strength mostly due to the longer range of motion and eccentric component. I would probably keep those below 20%. Same goes for the nature of a sled push unless it’s really light, it’s going to really hammer your lungs.

If you’re doing long repeated step-ups try to use a box that’s 75% of your shin height. I’ve found with step-ups if your doing them non stop to simulate a real hill, you need a lot more weight than if you were outside or on a Stairmaster to elicit that consistent burn. Probably like 60+ pounds if you’re already pretty strong and conditioned.

a good way to break it up might look like:

15 minutes step-ups w/30-40% bodyweight
5 minutes lunges, sled push, core
-pace yourself to stay right beneath Z3

Repeat to your heart -or legs content

Also I believe Scott Johnston recommends limiting total time of ascent or ME sessions to 90 minutes.

 

[Marbles]

I’ve read through this thread a few times and breezed through the links, but don’t know that I’m hitting the ME focus. Im at sea level with zero hills, so I have been using weighted lunges, step ups, and sled push. Im stringy with a good aerobic base, but my HR is jumping right to Z3-4 at 25-50% BW. I’ve generally been deliberate about keeping a slow grinding pace, but still end up out of Z2. For you guys, does the weight feel heavy with an immediate low burn when you start? Or does the heavy/burn feeling gradually kick in towards the end of the workout?

Anaerobic strength is completely exhausted by 90 seconds (but for most much sooner). So, if you are maintaining the activity for over 90 seconds continues/only breif pauses you are hitting ME. If you are doing it in the most effective way or not is up for debate.

I would take Scott Johnson's advice and ignore your heart rate during ME (obviously not everyone agrees). Your heart rate responds to physiologic demand and if you have well developed legs they can demand massive amounts of fuel and create a lot of exhaust. A mark of poor ME is an inability to hold a high heart rate during an activity because the muscles simply lake the endurance to keep demanding the higher fuel/exhaust rate.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

For the purpose of being better for extended periods (over 1 or more hours at a time), our target should be the aerobic muscle fibers. To stress those, we must stay away from recruiting significant anaerobic fibers or else fatigue builds too quickly and bouts end before the aerobic fibers are fatigued.

One good strategy I have found is using a slow warmup and gradual progressive increase. It should feel boring the first 20 minutes. Still easy at 30-45 minutes. But something around 45-60 minutes things take a turn and concentration is needed to hold composure. Discomfort seems to grow exponentially after that. With more time using this system, I could delay that exponential rise in discomfort, or simply move faster across the whole workout.

 

[P Carter]

For the purpose of being better for extended periods (over 1 or more hours at a time), our target should be the aerobic muscle fibers. To stress those, we must stay away from recruiting significant anaerobic fibers or else fatigue builds too quickly and bouts end before the aerobic fibers are fatigued.

One good strategy I have found is using a slow warmup and gradual progressive increase. It should feel boring the first 20 minutes. Still easy at 30-45 minutes. But something around 45-60 minutes things take a turn and concentration is needed to hold composure. Discomfort seems to grow exponentially after that. With more time using this system, I could delay that exponential rise in discomfort, or simply move faster across the whole workout.

This sounds to me like a classic lactate threshold workout, yes? Steady stay at lactate threshold for around an hour? (And I think the terms would be “slow twitch” fibers versus “fast twitch” fibers: aerobic and anaerobic refer to energy systems being employed rather than muscle fiber types.)

Certainly a good workout - but distinct in purpose from the muscular endurance discussed in this thread. Not saying it shouldn’t be discussed - just trying to keep things clear in my mind, and perhaps others’ minds, because this stuff can get all tangled together.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

This sounds to me like a classic lactate threshold workout, yes? Steady stay at lactate threshold for around an hour? (And I think the terms would be “slow twitch” fibers versus “fast twitch” fibers: aerobic and anaerobic refer to energy systems being employed rather than muscle fiber types.)

Certainly a good workout - but distinct in purpose from the muscular endurance discussed in this thread. Not saying it shouldn’t be discussed - just trying to keep things clear in my mind, and perhaps others’ minds, because this stuff can get all tangled together.

There’s some benefit to the lactate threshold, as it strengthens the foundation for it, but I wouldn’t categorize it as such. The effort is more similar to marathon type effort, but the fatigue is aimed at working with resistance that we aren’t adapted to so we end up to breaking down mechanically before metabolically. The approach needs to be long enough to place that stimulus squarely on the aerobic side.

In regards to slow twitch - fast twitch, and aerobic - anaerobic, even fast twitch fibers can be trained to improve their aerobic pathways. Get more oxygen into either type cells and glycogen will burn more completely yielding much more ATP. The trick is not overworking them too intensely.

 

[mtnbound]

I’ve read through this thread a few times and breezed through the links, but don’t know that I’m hitting the ME focus. Im at sea level with zero hills, so I have been using weighted lunges, step ups, and sled push. Im stringy with a good aerobic base, but my HR is jumping right to Z3-4 at 25-50% BW. I’ve generally been deliberate about keeping a slow grinding pace, but still end up out of Z2. For you guys, does the weight feel heavy with an immediate low burn when you start? Or does the heavy/burn feeling gradually kick in towards the end of the workout?

Are your HR zones accurate? What are your zone values? Are you using a wrist-based HR monitor or chest strap monitor? It's Ok to be outside Zone 2 at first, but you should only be in the lower part of Zone 3 at most. If you are going into the upper Z3-Z4 I would add weight and slow your pace. Do not ignore your HR; listen to the video starting at 2:00, it is clearly stated what HR zone you should be working in.

 

[mtnbound]

There’s some benefit to the lactate threshold, as it strengthens the foundation for it, but I wouldn’t categorize it as such. The effort is more similar to marathon type effort, but the fatigue is aimed at working with resistance that we aren’t adapted to so we end up to breaking down mechanically before metabolically. The approach needs to be long enough to place that stimulus squarely on the aerobic side.

In regards to slow twitch - fast twitch, and aerobic - anaerobic, even fast twitch fibers can be trained to improve their aerobic pathways. Get more oxygen into either type cells and glycogen will burn more completely yielding much more ATP. The trick is not overworking them too intensely.

100% agree.

 

[Poser]

I had a very complex elk pack out last week during CO's first rifle season. We were in the nasty -my 3rd packout out of the particular area. Slow, very steep and extremely technical terrain, including some class 4 moves, negotiating 2 avalanche chutes and crossing a very steep and debris filled creek 15+ times. Its 1.4 miles each way with right at 1600 feet of gain/loss. Each trip up and down took exactly the same amount of time: 3 hours. There's just no way to go faster up or down -too technical.

We camped high, packed meat down so we were fresh with weight on our backs and then climbed back up. Because the terrain is so technical, we limited our loads to 60 lbs and did 2 meat packing trips + another for camp and then the original pack in with camp. 8 trips from high camp to basecamp @ 3 hours each = 24 hours of slow grind, muscular endurance. From there, we then packed meat down a trail for 2.5 miles/1,100 feet in a single trip and then camp back up to retrieve camp and back out again. Glad to have been in shape for it, but I am completely burned out on moving so freakin' slow..... frustratingly slow.

Looking forward to getting on some trails and cruising at a more rewarding pace.

 

[HighUintas]

That sounds pretty rough. I'm guessing you don't, but so you happen to have any pictures of the more technical uphill/downhill you had to do? I've only climb through stuff like that with a 65ish pound pack a couple of times. I was in good shape and it was hard. My pack wasn't the best though.... Very unstable

 

[Poser]

That sounds pretty rough. I'm guessing you don't, but so you happen to have any pictures of the more technical uphill/downhill you had to do? I've only climb through stuff like that with a 65ish pound pack a couple of times. I was in good shape and it was hard. My pack wasn't the best though.... Very unstable

I didn't take many pics this year as I've been in this area quite a number of times, but I did snap this one at one of the cruxes, affectionately known as "the boulder problem"


Dug this one up from a few years back. Couple of points on the way in and out where you are funneled into the creek for a few hundred yards in which case you have to navigate all of the avalanche debris. This changes dramatically year to year, to often have to find a new route through the creek anytime I go back in there.