Muscular Endurance for Mountain Athletes

[dreamingWest]

A heavy pack for lunges or a staircase work well for me here in Texas. I also like holding unsymmetric kettlebells for step-ups/step-downs.

 

[Josh Gray]

Would you guys consider 1000 body weight squats (butt to heels) or a mile of walking lunges muscular endurance or cardio? If one is hitting and holding zone 4 heart rates, would you take that as a sign more weight needs to be added? If breathing is controlled and one can breath through heir nose and talk, would you ignore the hart rate?

I would recommend if doing a gym style ME session try to stick with single leg movements. focus on producing that consistent leg burn without jacking your HR. I’m a pretty strong guy and have found that a circuit of body weight lunges, step-ups, & jumping lunges done with the right amount of reps/sets/rest can totally destroy my legs for 60-72 hours after. Example would be 4-6 sets of 10 each leg of those 3 exercises with 30-45 seconds of rest should result in the desired effect. I’ve never needed to add more than 20 lbs to them either. The reason to try limit the cardiovascular stress -like getting into Z4- is because the global fatigue cost is too high and doesn’t allow you to so more quality endurance work due to how long a session that hard takes to recover from. The minimal effective dose to produce those results is what your shooting for.

 

[Marbles]

One thing I remember from reading Uphill Athlete was that your lungs and heart should not be the limiting factor for lower body strength endurance. The limiting factor should be your legs. I'd suggest adding more weight.

A mile of lunges or the BW squats could be ME work so long as you do keep your HR in Z2 or with nasal breathing. If you are working in Zone 4, then I would say you are not doing ME work. You are working in more of a threshold zone, so two different energy systems.

So, if doing 50 weighted squats with 120 pounds gets one to a zone 4 heart rate, is the answer just slow down? Perhaps add a 3 second pause between squats? Kind of like with running, even if you can hold zone 4 for an hour plus, you just shouldn't do it most of the time?

 

[Josh Gray]

So, if doing 50 weighted squats with 120 pounds gets one to a zone 4 heart rate, is the answer just slow down? Perhaps add a 3 second pause between squats? Kind of like with running, even if you can hold zone 4 for an hour plus, you just shouldn't do it most of the time?

Another reason single leg exercises is better with ME -besides it being more sport specific to hiking- is you mostly eliminate the muscle lengthening that happens at the top and bottom of a squat. You want to keep tension on the muscle being used for the set duration. Taking a 30-45” between sets is mostly good to just keep the HR in check and lets you do more work and produce a greater work capacity as well and transfer over to more endurance. A dedicated lower body ME session should take at least 45 minutes after your warm up

 

[Josh Gray]

Also should ad if your doing lunges or step-ups do 10 reps on leg then 10 reps other leg rest 30 seconds. Jumping lunges are stressful enough were it doesn’t matter if your swapping legs during the set, but still do 10x for each leg. I’ll also take 2-3 minutes active recovery between exercises.

 

[mtnbound]

So, if doing 50 weighted squats with 120 pounds gets one to a zone 4 heart rate, is the answer just slow down? Perhaps add a 3 second pause between squats? Kind of like with running, even if you can hold zone 4 for an hour plus, you just shouldn't do it most of the time?

Yes, slow down. When I do ME step ups it’s like one step every 2-3 seconds depending on load and current fitness level. If you are not using a HR strap then do the nasal breathing like you described in your post.

 

[bpitcher]

This is a great gym-based ME workout that's based on jumping lunges and squat jumps. A good block of these, followed by a good block of weighted uphill hikes, is a great way to prep and then peak.

FREE At Home Muscular Endurance Workout with Progression

Build uphill endurance with this gym-based ME workout for runners, skiers, and mountaineers. muscular endurance workout.

www.uphillathlete.com

I'm currently on week 4 of Evoke's gym based muscular endurance workout listed on their site and have enjoyed it so far. Very similar to this. Lots of single leg work and heavy legs - especially on the cool down run.

https://evokeendurance.com/muscular-endurance-all-you-need-to-know/

 

[P Carter]

Thanks for this - sounds like evoke and uphill athlete are revamping their programs since Steve house and Scott Johnston split up, so thanks for sharing.

 

[mtnbound]

Another great ME exercise is to do forward and backward sled drags. Forward drags work your hamstrings and glutes, while backward drags work your quads, specifically just above your knee. Both directions are great for calf and building foot strength.

 

[Marbles]

I think this really answers my question. Pulled from the Evoke link.

"The load you carry must be heavy enough that the local fatigue in your legs is the limitation, NOT your breathing. Disregard heart rate in these ME workouts. If your legs are not feeling a low-level burn for the full climb, you’re not getting maximum benefit."

So, as long as my legs are the limiting factor to my pace, it is correct per that and the focus on HR zones is wrong. For me the burn disappears after a few minutes, but despite not feeling a burn my muscles let me know pushing harder will result in weakness and failure rapidly, so I don't think a burn is universal.

There is also this:
"You MUST maintain the Z1-2 aerobic volume and add this training on top of that."

And this "The excitement of seeing rapid gains when using these ME workouts often leads many folks to overemphasize them in their training program by replacing time spent training at easier aerobic paces (Recovery and Zones 1 and 2) with these “money” workouts."

Both strongly imply that ME is not aerobic base training and should not focus on zones 1 and 2. ME should be treated like sprints and be a small percentage of total training time. At least based on what Scott writes.

 

[mtnbound]

I think this really answers my question. Pulled from the Evoke link.

"The load you carry must be heavy enough that the local fatigue in your legs is the limitation, NOT your breathing. Disregard heart rate in these ME workouts. If your legs are not feeling a low-level burn for the full climb, you’re not getting maximum benefit."

So, as long as my legs are the limiting factor to my pace, it is correct per that and the focus on HR zones is wrong. For me the burn disappears after a few minutes, but despite not feeling a burn my muscles let me know pushing harder will result in weakness and failure rapidly, so I don't think a burn is universal.

There is also this:
"You MUST maintain the Z1-2 aerobic volume and add this training on top of that."

And this "The excitement of seeing rapid gains when using these ME workouts often leads many folks to overemphasize them in their training program by replacing time spent training at easier aerobic paces (Recovery and Zones 1 and 2) with these “money” workouts."

Both strongly imply that ME is not aerobic base training and should not focus on zones 1 and 2. ME should be treated like sprints and be a small percentage of total training time. At least based on what Scott writes.

I found that doing ME workouts in the way they described, ignoring my HR, shifted from an ME workout to a high HR conditioning workout, limiting the effectiveness of developing ME. Using my HR strap and staying in my upper Z2 and lower Z3 allows me to focus on fatiguing my legs. Everyone is different, so find what works for you.

 

[Marbles]

I found that doing ME workouts in the way they described, ignoring my HR, shifted from an ME workout to a high HR conditioning workout, limiting the effectiveness of developing ME. Using my HR strap and staying in my upper Z2 and lower Z3 allows me to focus on fatiguing my legs. Everyone is different, so find what works for you.

So, take this with a grain of salt, or perhaps a whole shaker.

I don't think that is actually ME training. Your capacity is limited by your heart rate, which is the same as being limited by your breathing. ****Ok, that interpretation is wrong, hence why I wrote the disclaimer. "While you can get decent gains using this method in Z1 and Z2, we prefer to make use of the higher aerobic zone to target the maximum pool of motor units you can recruit for the full extent of the workout."****

Uphill Athlete has this "The simplest way to increase the ME training effect of your workouts is to add resistance while doing some of your high-intensity (Z3–Z4) workouts."

Then there is this "If you are aerobically deficient, then you still have big gains to make by focusing on your aerobic system, which will make this training more effective."

And "We like to see our athletes have their AeT be within 10 percent of their AnT as measured by heart rate before they begin this program."

"If you are aerobically deficient, then you still have big gains to make by focusing on your aerobic system". Which I read as, don't start doing ME before you have a solid base.

"The point of adding the extra weight is to increase the recruitment of the working muscle’s motor units. Your brain will increase the mass of muscle recruited as needed to get the job done, up to the point of maximal strength. The extra weight causes motor units that are not well endurance trained to be called upon to assist in getting the job done. This recruitment will expose these fibers to an endurance training stimulus that they don’t normally see. Recall from Training for the New Alpinism that if you can’t recruit them, you can’t train them. Due to these fibers’ relatively poor endurance (aerobic) capacity, they will be what determines your AnT heart rate for this type of work. If it is done correctly, that heart rate will be lower than your unweighted AnT heart rate."

I'll also just throw this out "The final goal for this sort of training progression should be carrying loads at above the weight you’ll have on the climb."

All quotes from:

What Is Muscular Endurance? Why Is It Important? How Do You Train It?

Why can some alpinists ascend 1,000 meters in an hour with a heavy pack when others struggle with 1,000 feet in an hour? The answer lies in ME training.

uphillathlete.com

 

[mtwarden]

I found that doing ME workouts in the way they described, ignoring my HR, shifted from an ME workout to a high HR conditioning workout, limiting the effectiveness of developing ME. Using my HR strap and staying in my upper Z2 and lower Z3 allows me to focus on fatiguing my legs. Everyone is different, so find what works for you.

This has been my experience as well. But I agree everyone is different and some experimentation is probably warranted.

My understanding reading through several of their articles was one of the reasoning on the Zone 2 ME recommendation was quicker recovery (vs doing the workout in Z 3 or Z 4).

 

[grainhog]

In my experience a very small proportion of even avid mountain recreators have any idea what a 40° sustained slope angle actually is, much less 50.

 

[mtnbound]

This has been my experience as well. But I agree everyone is different and some experimentation is probably warranted.

My understanding reading through several of their articles was one of the reasoning on the Zone 2 ME recommendation was quicker recovery (vs doing the workout in Z 3 or Z 4).

My definition of MD is different than theirs, that's for sure. I believe in doing high-HR workouts, but high-HR workouts are not sustainable for long periods of time, whereas staying in a sustainable aerobic zone, one can go almost forever with proper fueling. What fails or diminishes is muscular endurance, and when I tried their method, it did not really benefit me, so I tried something else; as mentioned, everyone is different, and you have to test stuff to find what works best for you and your goals.

 

[5MilesBack]

In my experience a very small proportion of even avid mountain recreators have any idea what a 40° sustained slope angle actually is, much less 50.

Well, when you're standing straight up on a slope and can reach straight out and touch the slope, it's steep enough.

 

[Josh Gray]

ME training has to be viewed within the context of block periodization. It can be 10x more effective when used that way. It works best after building a solid endurance/max strength base. it’s also better to alternate ME blocks & Max Strength/Base block every 8 weeks vs always trying to build ME.

I’ve used Evoke’s 24 week mountaineering program to prepare for hunting and I can attest that properly timed blocks that use a proper build & modulation produced profound results for me.
I have a hill I use for training that gains 1300’ in 2/3 of a mile. During my Max Strength/Base block I could do that hill unweighted in 30 minutes staying comfortably in Z2. After just 7 Stairmaster ME sessions in that many weeks I could hit that same time wearing a 35 pound pack at that same Z2 HR. Also my uphill endurance above 11k+ was drastically improved after just 3 weeks. I could march uphill with 25 pounds up there with zero leg burn. My mind is was pretty blown with just how effective it was. It’s as close to a magic bullet for mountain hunting as there is

 

[mtwarden]

My understanding reading through several of their articles was one of the reasoning on the Zone 2 ME recommendation was quicker recovery (vs doing the workout in Z 3 or Z 4).

This

Traditional endurance training practice derives the ME training effect by doing high-intensity (Z3 and Z4) interval training. When exercising in these high-intensity zones for many minutes, the muscles’ FTa fibers are getting a similar training stimulus as they receive when we isolate them and induce local muscular fatigue. The difference is that traditional interval training carries with it a high global fatigue cost. Whereas the Local Muscular training stimulus carries only a local fatigue cost. So, recovery is quicker, and a higher volume of Z1-2 training can be maintained

 

[P Carter]

This

Traditional endurance training practice derives the ME training effect by doing high-intensity (Z3 and Z4) interval training. When exercising in these high-intensity zones for many minutes, the muscles’ FTa fibers are getting a similar training stimulus as they receive when we isolate them and induce local muscular fatigue. The difference is that traditional interval training carries with it a high global fatigue cost. Whereas the Local Muscular training stimulus carries only a local fatigue cost. So, recovery is quicker, and a higher volume of Z1-2 training can be maintained

Agree - and I've found it to be the case. In my experience, I can get a very good, very localized ME workout through the gym-based workout and still have the energy to go on an hourish run in the afternoon. You can also control all the variables to dial in the workout really well. (Variables being the number of reps, number of sets, rest between sets, etc.) If I do a pack workout, it tends to be overall longer and the general fatigue is much higher. Don't want to do a run in the evening.

For what it's worth, I think the pack workouts (and associated fatigue) are critical to do before a hunt. (Or uphill intervals when training for races rather than hunts.) But for a limited period of time, like 8 or 10 weeks, rather than year-round. The gym-based workouts allow you to do regulated ME workouts during a base phase (12-16 weeks like 6 months out from the event) while maintaining a pretty high volume of aerobic training. When the time comes to jump into the event-specific ME workouts (pack carries for hunt or uphill intervals for races), you do so with a good base level of ME so you can really crank those workouts. Training to train, so to speak.

For what it's worth - not that anyone cares - I did find that the gym-based ME workouts neglected my calves, so when I jumped into the pack or intervals my calves ended up fatiguing much more quickly than quads/hamstrings/hips. So I started jump-roping as a warmup, which really helped. It's also supposed to help strengthen the achilles tendon, so I see it as part of my newly-old-man routine to keep my achilles firmly attached to my heel - way too many people pop their achilles and that gives me the shivers...

 

[WyoBC_99]

For what it's worth - not that anyone cares - I did find that the gym-based ME workouts neglected my calves, so when I jumped into the pack or intervals my calves ended up fatiguing much more quickly than quads/hamstrings/hips. So I started jump-roping as a warmup, which really helped. It's also supposed to help strengthen the achilles tendon, so I see it as part of my newly-old-man routine to keep my achilles firmly attached to my heel - way too many people pop their achilles and that gives me the shivers...

I personally endorse the idea of a 'newly-old-man routine' hahaha!