Muscular Endurance for Mountain Athletes

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WKR
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I listened this this Uphill Athlete podcast this morning on Muscular Endurance:

Starts out a little nerdy, but it gets there eventually. He talks about the "dead leg" or "heavy leg" effect being tied to CNS fatigue. One thing that was of particular interest is he states that the best ME builder for mountaineers is rucking uphill where the limiting factor is (essentially) your muscular endurance output in your legs. In order to train this pathway effectively, however, you need a slope of of 30-50 degrees. The Forrest service aims for trail slope angles of no more than 11 degrees. I live in the San Juans where its particularly steep, still, though, its difficult to find actual trails that are steeper than 20 degrees for any sustained period of time. You're hard pressed to find a treadmill that will go steeper than 10 degrees. To get on 30 degree+ slopes that you can actually climb, avalanche chutes are the best option because they tend to be open. I'm fortunate in that I have access to avy chutes and regularly end up climbing them in the summer when out and about in the mountains.

Stairs, however, will accomplish this angle quite well and will probably be the most practical way to train muscular endurance for those who don't have access to steep mountains. I realize stairs are already a popular portion of many people's training, but the 30-50 degree minimum slope angle for the purposes of rucking was not something that I had considered much, afterall, 20 degrees on a trail is pretty "steep". I think that there are a lot of people who fall into the middle where they have access to trails, maybe even "steep" trails and call it good, however those "steep" trails aren't steep enough to effectively build muscular endurance in which case, you may still benefit from some time on the stairs or, even more mind numbing boring, doing box steps ups with a pack on.

The good news is, you don't need a whole of training volume to build ME assuming you have an aerobic base and sufficiently strong legs. about ~10 hours of training time spread over a few weeks will get you there assuming everything else is in order. That's 4-5 sessions.
 

schmalzy

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Nice Cliff notes summarization.

Agreed. This is something I’ve experienced but didn’t know I was doing it; I didn’t have access to trails or mountains in the past and used parking garage stairs to ruck. reaffirming to hear the science or validation of it.


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Agreed. This is something I’ve experienced but didn’t know I was doing it; I didn’t have access to trails or mountains in the past and used parking garage stairs to ruck. reaffirming to hear the science or validation of it.


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Yeah, he talked about a guy who was training to link 2 Himalayan peaks while living in NYC. The guy did all of his ME training in a high rise stair well ad had days where he did 10,000 feet of vertical. If you were using a 50 story building, that would be up and down the stairs 15 times.
 

mtwarden

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I have a hard time listening to podcasts, so thanks for posting!

I've got a few places that are at or very close to 30°; do they say ~ how much weight should be used?

The good news is, you don't need a whole of training volume to build ME assuming you have an aerobic base and sufficiently strong legs. about ~10 hours of training time spread over a few weeks will get you there assuming everything else is in order. That's 4-5 sessions.

sessions should last ~ 30 minutes then?
 
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I have a hard time listening to podcasts, so thanks for posting!

I've got a few places that are at or very close to 30°; do they say ~ how much weight should be used?



sessions should last ~ 30 minutes then?

As for weight, depends on how strong you are. The stronger, the heavier, but it needs to be heavy enough to fatigue your legs at least a bit. If you are able to go fast enough that you are getting out of breathe, then you need more weight. I think he suggested somewhere that 25% of bodyweight is a good starting point to figure out how much you need. I would also presume that someone with a fixed back weight (ie "my pack weight for my 8 days DIY OTC archery elk hunt is 59.4 lbs not counting food, water, bow, optics...."), then it would make sense to train with that weight or work up to training with that weight.

I don't recall him discussing the exact length, but I'd think a bit longer in the 45-60+ minute realm would be more productive for an endurance based pathway such as this. Probably some variance for how much actual vertical one is training for. For example, climbing volcanoes in the PNW can often be 7,000-8,000 foot days starting from near sea level. Living in CO, you are often starting out so high, that you don't end up with days with that kind of vertical unless you are really putting in long miles. 2,000-4,000 is more of the range for that. I've heard of guys climbing 80,000 feet on 8-10 day Alaskan sheep hunts and obviously, in the Himalayas, one could accumulate quite a bit of vertical. I suppose that would depend somewhat on what you are training for, but if you are putting in 8,000 foot days looking for elk most anywhere, you aren't doing it right.
 

fngTony

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I know of two 30°ish slopes but they’re 2.7 and 3.6 miles in. Not something I want to carry a heavy pack into and then back out. Not solely for training anyway,
 

mtnbound

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It’s also called High Intensity Continuous Training. You do not want to be out of breath while doing this. It’s not an aerobic workout it’s muscular endurance workout also great to do with step ups.


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mtbraun

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I listened this this Uphill Athlete podcast this morning on Muscular Endurance:

Starts out a little nerdy, but it gets there eventually. He talks about the "dead leg" or "heavy leg" effect being tied to CNS fatigue. One thing that was of particular interest is he states that the best ME builder for mountaineers is rucking uphill where the limiting factor is (essentially) your muscular endurance output in your legs. In order to train this pathway effectively, however, you need a slope of of 30-50 degrees. The Forrest service aims for trail slope angles of no more than 11 degrees. I live in the San Juans where its particularly steep, still, though, its difficult to find actual trails that are steeper than 20 degrees for any sustained period of time. You're hard pressed to find a treadmill that will go steeper than 10 degrees. To get on 30 degree+ slopes that you can actually climb, avalanche chutes are the best option because they tend to be open. I'm fortunate in that I have access to avy chutes and regularly end up climbing them in the summer when out and about in the mountains.

Stairs, however, will accomplish this angle quite well and will probably be the most practical way to train muscular endurance for those who don't have access to steep mountains. I realize stairs are already a popular portion of many people's training, but the 30-50 degree minimum slope angle for the purposes of rucking was not something that I had considered much, afterall, 20 degrees on a trail is pretty "steep". I think that there are a lot of people who fall into the middle where they have access to trails, maybe even "steep" trails and call it good, however those "steep" trails aren't steep enough to effectively build muscular endurance in which case, you may still benefit from some time on the stairs or, even more mind numbing boring, doing box steps ups with a pack on.

The good news is, you don't need a whole of training volume to build ME assuming you have an aerobic base and sufficiently strong legs. about ~10 hours of training time spread over a few weeks will get you there assuming everything else is in order. That's 4-5 sessions.
Nice summary. In general I agree with the adaptations taking less time (10 hours) than we think. For example, my transition from "flatter" ultras to mountain ultras is generally an 8 week window. That assumes there is sufficient base strength to build off. Also, it's not hard to find a treddy that goes over 10%. Mine goes to 40% and is a real burn inducing experience.
 

TaperPin

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I can believe it - the summer I focused on peak bagging, many trails were a 4 to 8 hr combination of maximum leg exertion at a moderate speed that was a real cardio workout, and that put me in as good a shape as anything tried before or since.
 

mtwarden

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Alright, so I loaded my pack up with 45# (~ a 1/4 of my body weight) and found a pretty steep slope. It gains ~1400' in 3/4 mile. It took a little over 40 minutes to go that 3/4 of mile. I had to constantly slow it down a bit to keep my heart rate in Zone 2—I was right at the edge of Zones 2 & 3.

I finished off the loop with about 4 miles, all downhill.

Not as steep as they recommend, but any steeper and I would be on my tiptoes the entire time (as it was I was on my toes quite a bit) and keeping in Zone 2 would have been even harder.

I'll give it another go in a few days; going to shoot for twice a week for a month.

Legs are definitely fatigued, so I guess I'm on the right track :D
 

Marbles

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I can see that, I have access to a pretty steep trail, but even with 110 pounds my heart rate is up in zone 4. I'll have to chase down some steeper slopes.
 
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Alright, so I loaded my pack up with 45# (~ a 1/4 of my body weight) and found a pretty steep slope. It gains ~1400' in 3/4 mile. It took a little over 40 minutes to go that 3/4 of mile. I had to constantly slow it down a bit to keep my heart rate in Zone 2—I was right at the edge of Zones 2 & 3.

I finished off the loop with about 4 miles, all downhill.

Not as steep as they recommend, but any steeper and I would be on my tiptoes the entire time (as it was I was on my toes quite a bit) and keeping in Zone 2 would have been even harder.

I'll give it another go in a few days; going to shoot for twice a week for a month.

Legs are definitely fatigued, so I guess I'm on the right track :D

1400 feet in 3/4th of a mile if pretty dang steep! That's steeper then any of the regular training hikes I do. Once you have to start front-pointing on your toes, its really difficult to get into any kind of rhythm.
 

mtwarden

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110 pounds is way too much Heman. Steeper grade is fine just go slower with less weight.

Agreed. They said to shoot for roughly 1/4 of body weight and even then not easy to stay in Zone 2.

Me thinks that after 3-4 sessions, might be a little easier????
 

mtwarden

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1400 feet in 3/4th of a mile if pretty dang steep! That's steeper then any of the regular training hikes I do. Once you have to start front-pointing on your toes, its really difficult to get into any kind of rhythm.

Definitely seemed pretty darn steep to me. Honestly I think at 30 degrees you’d be grasping vegetation or rock to pull yourself up.

I found out percent grade is not the same as degree slope. Treadmills usually go up to a grade of 15 or so, which only translates to 8 degrees.
 
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