Most reliable and shootable 9mm semi auto pistols

[Thegman]

Okay, screwed up a little, but not enough to re-run it. On the first 15 yard for 15 seconds I was thinking I needed 10 rounds, not 5. Got to 9 and the timer went off. Oh well, wtf, took one shot with the next 15 second period and moved on.

29 on paper, one off paper at 25 yards. You know how to score these. I don't know if cut lines count or not. If so, somewhere around 258? Suppose it could be a hair higher if I sighted the pistol for the Tula ammo, but wasn't going to screw with it for something I'm not going to carry in it.

 

[Thegman]

Can you describe the bear's behavior after getting beaned in the skull with a 30-06 at 15 feet? As in, literally, what did he do, how did he behave, what did you observe?



This is not wrong. But it's also usually not mentioned where discussion of "center mass" aiming is the instructional norm.

I wasn't with the two guys, I talked with the initial shooter that evening. He said the bear "stopped like it hit a brick wall". Then his buddy started shooting it in the side while it was standing there, and then he joined in shooting it in the chest. I don't know what rifle the second guy was shooting. I think they shot it four times, including the one that glanced off its head.

 

[Formidilosus]

Okay, screwed up a little, but not enough to re-run it. On the first 15 yard for 15 seconds I was thinking I needed 10 rounds, not 5. Got to 9 and the timer went off. Oh well, wtf, took one shot with the next 15 second period and moved on.

29 on paper, one off paper at 25 yards. You know how to score these. I don't know if cut lines count or not. If so, somewhere around 258? Suppose it could be a hair higher if I sighted the pistol for the Tula ammo, but wasn't going to screw with it for something I'm not going to carry in it.

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View attachment 868384

If it was shot to standard, that is the highest score I have seen or heard of from someone that isn’t a pistol shooter. Which begs, have you been sandbagging in your pistol experience?


Also, are you left handed?

 

[Thegman]

If it was shot to standard, that is the highest score I have seen or heard of from someone that isn’t a pistol shooter. Which begs, have you been sandbagging in your pistol experience?


Also, are you left handed?

Thanks, I appreciate it. It's useful to get a perspective from someone that sees these a lot. I've never seen one.

Shot to standard as in I stapled the target to a cardboard box, used my range finder to mark 15 and 25 yards from the box and marked the spots with sticks and stood behind them. Put the cellphone on the ground and started as soon as the countdown timer hit 15, or 10, depending. Didn't really end up needing all the time for the 25 yard part or the second 15 second part where I only shot once. The other two I timed pretty closely.

I didn't say I wasn't a pistol shooter, just an Alaskan redneck pistol shooter, never had any "lessons", or participated in competitions or anything. But I's done tolt yous I's purty strong.

I'm right handed, right eye dominant. What did you see that made you ask.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks, I appreciate it. It's useful to get a perspective from someone that sees these a lot. I've never seen one.

Shot to standard as in I stapled the target to a cardboard box, used my range finder to mark 15 and 25 yards from the box and marked the spots with sticks and stood behind them. Put the cellphone on the ground and started as soon as the countdown timer hit 15, or 10, depending. Didn't really end up needing all the time for the 25 yard part or the second 15 second part where I only shot once. The other two I timed pretty closely.

I didn't say I wasn't a pistol shooter, just an Alaskan redneck pistol shooter, never had any "lessons", or participated in competitions or anything. But I's done tolt yous I's purty strong.

260 pts cold is what’s required to begin the FBI Firearms Instructor Course. It’s the most stressful part of the prequel, people generally have to practice out with dedication to pass, and still quite a few will fail every class day one and go home.

So, all that to say- you don’t need me to tell you, but keep on keeping on.

I'm right handed, right eye dominant. What did you see that made you ask.

It is unusual for a RH shooter to have the group trend to the right.

 

[HandgunHTR]

It is unusual for a RH shooter to have the group trend to the right.

Unless that person did a bunch of training with a laser and has picked up the habit of moving the gun a little to the right and sliding the head to the left in order to see where the laser is pointing on the target.

Or just using too much trigger finger.

 

[Thegman]

Unless that person did a bunch of training with a laser and has picked up the habit of moving the gun a little to the right and sliding the head to the left in order to see where the laser is pointing on the target.

Or just using too much trigger finger.

Well, maybe trust me at this point, it's definitely not the former. Could well be the latter, or the sights aren't regulated for that ammo; I've never used it before, but didn't want to waste good ammo. Considering that when I shot slowly the group seemed pretty centered with that ammo, I'm thinking it's most likely me when I'm speeding up, which I should really practice more...

 

[Dave0317]

We have been speaking past each other the entire thread. The reason you aren’t seeing what I am saying is in all probability because we aren’t even talking about the same thing.


Short version: we are speaking past each other because in all likelihood we aren’t even having the same conversation, combined with this subject being a skill based one- and neither of us have any idea about the knowledge, skill or ability of the other.



Full version:

I am loathe to get into this but unfortunately I commented in this thread. The reason I do not generally engage in these discussions is because it is about skill- skill can be measured, and in discussing skill everyone must know where everyone else stands otherwise it’s just a he-said, she-said thing.

For an analogy-

Let’s say this thread is about strength and by proxy- training for strength. 20 different people are giving 20 different answers about how to train for strength, nutrition, recovery, etc. There are widely differing views on what “strong” is, how to train it, etc.

The catch, is the baseline of knowing whether someone’s information should be taken seriously is what their current or even past performance in lifting is. If someone is giving advice about nutrition for instance- and that advice is against demonstrable results of the other person who is a high level nutritionist- what is someone supposed to think?
Without knowing the performance and knowledge level of the people engaged in the discussions you could be listening to the experience of a world class S&C coach who also is/was a world class powerlifter; or you could be listening to someone that has been morbidly obese their whole life and can’t squat 100lbs.

I’m saying this so it doesn’t get confused as in any way an appeal to authority- it is not. It is about figuring out the reason for the different positions.





I am speaking about shooting performance. That is real, measured, comparative performance. Lots of people do lots of things that “work for them”. Yet when put in a situation that requires them to perform on demand they utterly fail- because they were never actually measuring anything.
Without a target and a timer almost no information can be gleaned about shooting a pistol. It requires known, vetted standards that people can compare. Without that information people are saying:

“I’m real strong”.

Ok, how strong

“I don’t know, but I’m strong”

Ok, how much do you squat, deadlift, bench, etc?

“I don’t know, but it’s a lot!”

How many times do you lift it?

“I don’t know, but it’s a lot”


Etc etc. It is meaningless.


With pistol shooting there are known target sizes, distances, and times that have proven to repeatedly show competency AND result in expected performance under stress. When I am speaking about pistol shooting- that is what I am talking about. Not shooting tin cans in the backyard, or a few holes in paper (even if the group is fine). I could post something about my shooting ability with a pistol that anyone that is even remotely serious about pistol skill would know what it means- but I’m trying not to.


You and I are talking past each other because we both do not know if we are talking to someone skilled and knowledgeable, or the 450lb obese person giving nutrition advice.
It is very difficult, if not impossible to have a technical conversation about skill or technique, if one does not know what skill or level the other person is at.


This is a simple 30 round test that has known and correlated performance metrics to it. If you want to shoot it and post your target- then I know how to respond. Otherwise it’s “you’re wrong”, “no I’m not”, “yes you are”, on and on.

Target can be download and printed here-

https://10-8forums.com/targets/10-8bullseye.pdf

Directions are-

Start with pistol in the holster, loaded. You can use timer on your phone for the times- any shot that is on or after the timer goes off is scored as a 0- that is you take your highest point shot on the target off.

The course is as follows. All shots are standing, freestyle.

25-yards, 10 rounds, 4 minutes.

15-yards, 5 rounds, 15 seconds. Do this twice.

15-yards, 5 rounds, 10 seconds. Do this twice.

Total possible score, 300 pts




This is the last score of mine that I can find a target for on my phone. I can shoot it tomorrow.

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let’s say we want to make a good pistol skills test for outdoorsmen, similar to the rifle drill in the “Equipment vs Practice” post.

This is a great measurable standard to start with.

I actually just recently shot that FBI pre-qual course of fire for the first time recently. Got a 285, shot cold, first time ever.
I’ve been carrying a pistol professionally for about 15 years now, so I have had my share of practice.

Could probably simplify it even more for hunters/bear defense.

If you wanted to set a measurable goal for a hunter carrying a handgun for bear defense, what kind of test and/or scores would you be looking at?

 

[Tacoland]

If you wanted to set a measurable goal for a hunter carrying a handgun for bear defense, what kind of test and/or scores would you be looking at?

Good'ole Bill Drill in sub-2? or with a twist, done at 15 yards instead of 7?

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Good'ole Bill Drill in sub-2? or with a twist, done at 15 yards instead of 7?

That's rough

 

[Formidilosus]

let’s say we want to make a good pistol skills test for outdoorsmen, similar to the rifle drill in the “Equipment vs Practice” post.

This is a great measurable standard to start with.

I actually just recently shot that FBI pre-qual course of fire for the first time recently. Got a 285, shot cold, first time ever.
I’ve been carrying a pistol professionally for about 15 years now, so I have had my share of practice.

That’s a fantastic score for the first time. Was it with irons or a dot?

Could probably simplify it even more for hunters/bear defense.

If you wanted to set a measurable goal for a hunter carrying a handgun for bear defense, what kind of test and/or scores would you be looking at?

Well, do you want just a test and you don’t care to be able to diagnose the things causing failure? Or do you want a test that isolates different skills to see where the failures lie?

I would want to think about it some more for a firm answer, but off the cuff for just a test:

Pure precision- 25 yard B8 or FBI bull eye, 10 rounds.

For draw speed and recoil control a Bill drill using the B8/FBI bull and only counting inside the 8 ring is good. But, I think 3 of the same targets stacked in distance- one at 3.5 yards, one at 7, one at 15 yards. Start in the 15 yard target, shoot three rounds, then 3 at 7 yards, and 3 at 3.5 yards. All using a shot timer and all rounds must be in the 8 ring.

 

[HighUintas]

I really like where this is going.

After shooting last weekend, I thought it would be nice to be have a pistol beer defense thread similar to the practice vs equipment hunter drill thread.

 

[Dave0317]

I really like where this is going.

After shooting last weekend, I thought it would be nice to be have a pistol beer defense thread similar to the practice vs equipment hunter drill thread.

Exactly what I’m thinking!

 

[HighUintas]

@Formidilosus for a chest holster, is it best to have the muzzle end open if possible to prevent water collection in bad weather?

 

[RockAndSage]

I thought it would be nice to be have a pistol beer defense

My brother, beers are for shotgunning, not pistoling.

 

[Dave0317]

That’s a fantastic score for the first time. Was it with irons or a dot?




Well, do you want just a test and you don’t care to be able to diagnose the things causing failure? Or do you want a test that isolates different skills to see where the failures lie?

I would want to think about it some more for a firm answer, but off the cuff for just a test:

Pure precision- 25 yard B8 or FBI bull eye, 10 rounds.

For draw speed and recoil control a Bill drill using the B8/FBI bull and only counting inside the 8 ring is good. But, I think 3 of the same targets stacked in distance- one at 3.5 yards, one at 7, one at 15 yards. Start in the 15 yard target, shoot three rounds, then 3 at 7 yards, and 3 at 3.5 yards. All using a shot timer and all rounds must be in the 8 ring.

Thanks!

It was with a G45, Holosun 507c, shooting 147 grain Winchester white box.

Like I said, 15 years of carrying for work, bits of decent training here and there. Happen to have got lucky and trained at some good places a couple times.

My first impression was that the FBI pre qual CoF just doesn’t stress weapon manipulation enough. But then again, for the average bear defense situation, or civilian self defense case, you are not likely to be doing reloads, malfunction clearance, etc. The B8 drills you describe and the bill drill type stuff is probably closer to the engagements you would see with a charging bear.

Kind of like how the hunter shooting test has the 10 rounds, prone, sub 2 MOA zero confirmation/buy-in, I’m thinking start a test with the pistol equivalent.

Engage B8 at 25 with 10 rounds. No time limit.
Score over 90.

Then

5 rounds at 15 yards, from holster. Maybe 7 seconds?
5 rounds at 15, in 5 seconds. From a ready (already drawn) position.
5 rounds at 10 yards, 4 seconds.
5 rounds at 5 yards, 3 seconds.

I’d have to play with the time to see if that’s definitely realistic. Maybe aim for a 270 overall score. That should force mostly 9s and 10s. Maybe drop a couple in the 8 if you are pushing the speed.

What do y’all think?

 

[Southernfried]

My brother, beers are for shotgunning, not pistoling.

LOL thanks for that, only thing that has really made me laugh today lol

 

[Thegman]

But, I think 3 of the same targets stacked in distance- one at 3.5 yards, one at 7, one at 15 yards. Start in the 15 yard target, shoot three rounds, then 3 at 7 yards, and 3 at 3.5 yards. All using a shot timer and all rounds must be in the 8 ring.

I'm obviously not a drill guy, so take it for what it's worth, but I think this is the best idea. I've often thought about how to get experience with a target moving forward, toward me, and this would simulate that better than most, in a very simple way. It would be good practice, period.

I'd add maybe starting with your back turned so you also have to pick up the target rather than looking at it at the start. But taking advice on a drill from me, might be like taking public speaking advice from Kamala Harris...?

 

[Thegman]

Since we're still talking (mostly) about 9mm, and bear defense, and this time of year I'm thinking about it more, and I'm an OCD nerd, a couple of thoughts on ammo choices (mine anyway).

When I was loading 45 Super, I was using the 275 grain WFN (kind of a Ranch Dog profile, actually) from Hunter Supply, as I was guessing that shape might be about the best all around profile from an auto and was leaning toward bullet weight as much as possible. It's made for 45LC, etc, but fed great in my 1911s.

The 275 is on the left (obviously)


Right now I'm experimenting with 158SWC sized to .356. Using BE86, 1,000 - 1,050 is working fine and so far they're feeding fine. There's a 158SWC from Stateline bullets that has a wider meplat, but I don't have any yet to test feeding in my pistols.

38 cal 158 gr SWC H&G 51 Cast Bullets - Stateline Bullets

38 Cal 158 gr SWC for reloading. This hard lead cast bullet is a authentic Hensley & Gibbs 51 by Phil Sharpe. H&G 51 a favorite for the 38 Special 357 Mag.

statelinebullets.com

I've never bought "bear defense" loads specifically, but I was looking at Underwood and noticed they may have changed their 147 FP from what I've been using to something more like that Ranch Dog profile. I haven't looked at any, but since I can't find 147s quite like that, I'm going to take a look at them. If we're talking minutiae, which I am anyway, I'd think that bullet might work really well in 9mm for these purposes.
Older Underwood - look like typical 147s.


Newest Underwood - looks like maybe a slightly better bullet design.

 

[5811]

I think 3 of the same targets stacked in distance- one at 3.5 yards, one at 7, one at 15 yards. Start in the 15 yard target, shoot three rounds, then 3 at 7 yards, and 3 at 3.5 yards. All using a shot timer and all rounds must be in the 8 ring.

This sounds like fun.