Most reliable and shootable 9mm semi auto pistols

[Formidilosus]

Form, going to disagree with you on quite a bit of this. 40k without a cleaning and any maintenance or lubrication and not a single malfunction would be an impressive feat.

Where did I state that the pistol wasn’t lubed?

Even a rank beginner can look at the carbon build up and know without question, that wasn’t from 10,000 rounds.

I would like to see how your round count was tracked. Is this verifiable?

Verifiable to you? No. Tracked as in 40+ 1,000 round ammo cans, yes.

You should believe whatever you want. What any person can see, is that the pistols being shown have far more use on them than most have shot or seen shot. You don’t magically get a near 1/4” of carbon build up by shooting a few boxes of ammo with a wipe down every day.

Even just with ammo variation, you would be likely to have at least a single failure of some kind. FTF, FTE, light primer strike.

Who said anything about ammo variation? Why make things up when you don’t know?

The ammo type is written on the targets.

I do believe the 10k without lubrication but 40k plus is unlikely.

Again- you came up with the idea that the pistol wasn’t lubed.


2011’s need lube, they are not Glocks that generally work fine dry. However, the Staccato C and CS are not 2011’s, and from what I have seen, they handle being dry about as well as any service pistol.

Additionally, do you honestly think the bulk of 1911 and 2011 on the market could do half of that performance consistently?

Why do I care about the bulk of the 1911 and 2011 market? I showed pictures of a Springfield Professional, and a Staccato after people started the talk about them and reliability. The OP asked about the Staccato C or CS- both of those pistols are very reliable, and in a lot of use have proven to be as reliable as most any other legitimate duty pistol. So too the HD.


A handful of P’s-




Here’s another extremely reliable service 1911-



This pistol was used to make GM in USPSA Single Stack- it looks a bit more worn now. That was at about 12,000 ish rounds and had not had a malfunction with WCC or Federal 230gr ball, nor Federal 230gr HST. It’s not a super fan of 185hr SWC with some mags, some mags it’s good.




Previous G17. Probably at around the 40k to 60,000 round mark. It started having trigger failures (modded) at 86,000 +/- rounds that was never able to be remedied. Before that, it had 2, maybe 3 malfunctions in over 80k rounds. It was retired having lived a good life.







This should be a Gen 3, G19 and this would have been around 30,000 rounds-

Please provide what else the thumb safety is for besides drop safety.

Human safety.
Snag safety.
External object safety.
Carless handling safety.

Same as safeties on rifles, carbines, and shotguns.

Thumb safeties on a 1911/2011 have literally nothing to do with drop safety. That is the firing pin and luring pin spring in series 70, and the disconnector in series 80’s.

The overwhelming majority of respectable handgun trainers consider it a major point of failure for users when under stress.

Do they now? Who are the overwhelming majority of respectable handgun trainers? And what makes them respectable? How do you know that they are correct?

I mean…. Hundreds of thousands of competitors, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers are using pistols with manual thumb safeties… and not “dying in da streets”….

But here’s a logical question- how is that the M4/AR15 has no hindrance with a thumb safety, with any modicum of skill people do not “fumble” it or forget it, they are used in extremely stressful situations every single day… and yet, a safety that functions the exact same way on a pistol is just so hard to use…?

Additionally, respectable figures in the gun industry (not hunting, but specifically gun) are consistently against them or at the minimum would not use them unless using a 1911/2011 or single action (TRex arms, Honest Outlaw, Garand Thumb).

Those are your respectable figures?

They, along with others, consistently see shooters in classes draw, point, fail to depress the safety, and are unable to fire. References: Warrior Poet Society, T. Rex, Sage Dynamics, and more.

Again, if YouTube paid content “influencers” with low to mediocre skill levels is where you choose to get your information, that is on you. I choose to get my information from doing, and pallets of ammo.

What data do you have that counters all of their first hand experiences watching shooters fail?

Data? They for the most part do not provide “data”. Nor have I- to be clear. However, I get my information by doing- not being told what happens. For almost 20 years I have averaged between 30,000 and 80,000 pistol rounds a year, worn out multiple Glocks, Sig P226’s, Beretta M9’s, 1911’s (top ends), Sig M18 and M17’s, S&W M&P’s, CZ Shadow 2’s… and probably more I am forgetting. The entire time others were around me doing the same, at similar levels. I do not need to ask Garand Thumb what a Staccato does or does not do.



Beyond that, why is it that so many people wear it like a badge of honor that they are so inept, so scared, and so incompetent with guns? If that is what they really think about their ability- why don’t they just get truly trained so they aren’t bumbling boobs.

While I certainly have not shot 60k through a single pistol, I do shoot often. I have shot a decent selection of handguns. I do actually research. Resulting to insult is generally a sign of a weak argument.

Please quote where insulted you. “Ignorance” isn’t an insult.


However, it is nothing that I pointed out multiple errors in your original post, and instead of acknowledging them- you shift to other things, and talk about “well experts know”.

I called 1911s and 2011s finicky compared to Glocks because they are. You will be hard pressed to find a firearm instructor who would ever recommend 1911s for serious usage (CCW, duty, etc.).

Really? You need to get off the YouTube/instagram gun world and broaden your shooting view. There are a lot of “serious” gun people using 1911 and 2011’s, and they are being carried by more “serious” gun users now than they were 20 years ago.

This is especially true due to the fact that a ton of 1911s people will buy are cheap and poorly made.

What does that have to do with the OP? The OP asked about the C and CS model Staccato’s. They are extremely good pistols.

The average person will not invest in higher end models that can run better. So again, please provide evidence supporting why firearms trainers do not recommend 1911s.

What? Why would I “supply evidence supporting why firearms trainers do not recommend 1911’s”?

Additionally, multiple gun channels have performed all kinds of stress test to pretty much every modern handgun. 2011s/1911s are some of the worst performers when introduced to dirt, sand, dust, mud, water, cold temps, etc.

Sweet baby Jesus…

Poor fundamentals and form will not make someone shoot better with a 1911/2011. If someone is not a good shooter, a lighter trigger won’t make them better. A good shooter will likely improve with the lighter trigger and low muzzle flip. Unless you are implying that the 2011s will mask things such as jerking the trigger in which case I could believe that to some extent.

So you mean that they shoot them better….

1911’s and 2011’ are such an advantage, that action competition bodies had to make pistol divisions specifically to exclude them from competing so people had a place to use polymer striker fired and DA/SA guns. Saying that they aren’t an advantage in hitting things at speed is ridiculous.

However, it is not the trigger (or not the main thing) that makes 1911’s and 2011’s the highest performing pistols made- it is the grip. Especially the 1911.

 

[Formidilosus]

Where's your p365 torture test?

Ehhh. I’ve used them a bit personally- probably 15,000 rounds or so. Good pistols and make a lot of sense for most people, but they don’t really fit with my needs. Day to day, I want the most shootable pistol I can get. When I need the minimum size/weight, the G42 has proven to be fantastic and can be shot to a very high level.


Brand new, checking after sight swap. First 10 rounds out of the gun, 20 yards.



3x one shot draws, then a Bill drill from concealment, 2.88 seconds-

 

[Formidilosus]

That video makes me want to forget about a staccato.

There’s a lot of BS about that and you are doing yourself a disservice by taking it at face value.

Series 70 1911’s have always been “not drop safe” if they fall a very specific way, in a very specific condition. In over 100 years of being used as much as any handgun made… I am unaware of it ever being a real issue. By the way- lots of pistols (and rifles, and nearly all shotguns) are not remotely drop safe.

Even so, Series 80 1911’s and 2011’s are truly drop safe no matter what. Even series 70’s with Ti firing pins pass.

 

[jonpall]

There’s a lot of BS about that and you are doing yourself a disservice by taking it at face value.

Series 70 1911’s have always been “not drop safe” if they fall a very specific way, in a very specific condition. In over 100 years of being used as much as any handgun made… I am unaware of it ever being a real issue. By the way- lots of pistols (and rifles, and nearly all shotguns) are not remotely drop safe.

Even so, Series 80 1911’s and 2011’s are truly drop safe no matter what. Even series 70’s with Ti firing pins pass.

I'm sure this is true but the new staccato HD is being advertised as being drop safe to make people feel better at least. I don't know enough to know if it's an upgrade overall or not. Seems like yours have done just fine as is.

I've seen endless debates about similar issues with the p320 series as well. I don't have one so haven't cared enough to get to the bottom of it.

 

[Choupique]

By the way- lots of pistols (and rifles, and nearly all shotguns) are not remotely drop safe.

Moral of the story - don't make a habit out of dropping loaded guns on the concrete.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

@Formidilosus since we’ve seemed to breach the staccato subject a bit, what is your observation/opinion of the new HD?

 

[Lionheart]

I guess I misunderstood the OP’s original question. I thought he was asking for suggestions about a bear country handgun. My first reaction was to laugh at the “9mm” stipulation. For a bear gun? Really?
Let me know how that works for you lol.

 

[Howler65]

Form,

Any experience with other .22WMR pistols? Like the S&W or Walther?

 

[walkingduckwaterfowl]

I didn't read all 16 pages but if it hasn't been mentioned yet, there are US glocks and Austrian glocks. Based on my experience I would buy Austrian. These are denoted with a PA in the serial number. All of my glock experience has been with Austrian guns. The one person I know that purchased a confirmed US glock has had nothing but problems with stovepipe malfunctions (glock 42 with multiple types of ammo). This is extremely small sample size and potentially a fluke, any pistol can experience problems.

I have put thousands of rounds through a Glock 21 (not recommending .45, it was what I had) and Glock 17. Both pistols never experienced a malfunction that I did not cause. I kept them oily to resist saltwater corrosion, which makes them even more prone to malfunctioning in theory. No issues shooting them accurately. That being said, there are likely pistols out there than a skilled individual can shoot more accurately and are just as reliable.

 

[zdc1775]

Any thoughts on the Ruger RXM anyone? Haven't paid much attention to new pistols lately, but just noticed it today and thought it looked like it might be a pretty decent pistol.

(No manual safety - not OP's preference - sorry for any derailing)

I bought one when they first came out to give it a try since I hate shooting Glocks but have quite a few of their magazines and love the aftermarket support, so I was hoping for it to be a better Glock than any of the ones Glock makes.

Right now I only have around 1,000 rounds through it so can't really speak to reliability long term, but initial impressions are that the RXM grip is a significant improvement over the factory Glock grip, the trigger is better than any factory Glock trigger I have ever tried but could use some improvement, that the factory sights are better that factory Glocks, and that the RXM's modular(?) optic cut cut is worlds ahead of Glock's MOS plates.

Biggest complaints with it right now is Magpul hasn't released a G45 sized grip for it yet so I am stuck using the compact grip it came with and with my XXXL sized hands I can't get a true full grip on it, and that it doesn't quite fit as securely as I would like in some of Gen 3 G19 holsters I have tried it in due to the rounded front on the trigger guard.

 

[RWT]

I’m actually interested in the 5.7x28 as an option. Curious if it has the same blocky handle as the PMR30.

I carry a keltec p17 suppressed in my pack during season. I use it to run off hogs on feeders. 150-200 yard 22LR just sting them at that distance. I wouldn’t consider it for bear defense.

 

[Choupique]

kept them oily to resist saltwater corrosion,

Ill hijack a bit - is there a handgun out there that handles salt water well? Any gun?

Every weapon i have rusts after a few offshore fishing trips. I'd love to have a handgun that could conceivably live in my boat if I elected it needed to.

 

[Fever Buck]

My P365 X Macro is my favorite pistol I’ve ever owned. Shoots great and conceals well.

 

[walkingduckwaterfowl]

My experience with 100ish days annually carrying pistols on the saltwater...best bet is to keep a light coating of oil on at all times. Cerakote or something similar might help, but there really is nothing I know about thats worse for things made of metal than saltwater.

 

[Tacoland]

Day to day, I want the most shootable pistol I can get. When I need the minimum size/weight, the G42 has proven to be fantastic and can be shot to a very high level.

Have you spent any time with the p238? I've only shot the g42 once and don't spend much time on glock platforms so it's not a fair comparison, but I've been able to run the p238 reasonably well (much better than the g42/g43) for a micro.

 

[HighUintas]

Ehhh. I’ve used them a bit personally- probably 15,000 rounds or so. Good pistols and make a lot of sense for most people, but they don’t really fit with my needs. Day to day, I want the most shootable pistol I can get. When I need the minimum size/weight, the G42 has proven to be fantastic and can be shot to a very high level.


Brand new, checking after sight swap. First 10 rounds out of the gun, 20 yards.
View attachment 865845


3x one shot draws, then a Bill drill from concealment, 2.88 seconds-
View attachment 865846

Thanks. So it seems, you're mostly concerned with shootability and that comes in full size form, right?

Shouldn't I consider a full size gun w safety over a p365, if I'm ok with carrying it? The grip on the x macro and fuse, while they die feel good, they did feel narrow and a little too small.

What would the recommendations be for light full size with safety?

There’s a lot of BS about that and you are doing yourself a disservice by taking it at face value.

Series 70 1911’s have always been “not drop safe” if they fall a very specific way, in a very specific condition. In over 100 years of being used as much as any handgun made… I am unaware of it ever being a real issue. By the way- lots of pistols (and rifles, and nearly all shotguns) are not remotely drop safe.

Even so, Series 80 1911’s and 2011’s are truly drop safe no matter what. Even series 70’s with Ti firing pins pass.

 

[Lawnboi]

I’m actually interested in the 5.7x28 as an option. Curious if it has the same blocky handle as the PMR30.

I carry a keltec p17 suppressed in my pack during season. I use it to run off hogs on feeders. 150-200 yard 22LR just sting them at that distance. I wouldn’t consider it for bear defense.

I had my hands on an m&p 5.7 for a while. The blocky handle is what kept it out of the running for me. I didn’t try adding some hogue grips but maybe that would have helped make it fatter and for me more manageable. The mags on the m&p 5.7 were reliable, neat design, load like an AR mag. Loud gun too being partially gas operated.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Where did I state that the pistol wasn’t lubed?

Apologies, you stated no cleaning. Though I do consider many lubricants to provide cleaning qualities.

Verifiable to you? No. Tracked as in 40+ 1,000 round ammo cans, yes.

So, no. It is not verifiable. Still, I am going to concede to your claim to round count due to your history of providing proof to claims in other threads. I have no current reason to doubt your integrity.
Yes, they have clearly been shot a lot. This does not confirm a round count. It just confirms that you shoot and don't wipe down every time.

Who said anything about ammo variation? Why make things up when you don’t know?
The ammo type is written on the targets.

I think you misunderstood what I mean by ammo variation. I am referring to variation in production of the ammunition. At 40k, you are just likely to have a bad round periodically.

2011’s need lube, they are not Glocks that generally work fine dry. However, the Staccato C and CS are not 2011’s, and from what I have seen, they handle being dry about as well as any service pistol.

Staccato's own website claims the Staccato C as part of their 2011 family. I disagree with you claiming they are not 2011's.

Why do I care about the bulk of the 1911 and 2011 market? The OP asked about the Staccato C or CS- both of those pistols are very reliable, and in a lot of use have proven to be as reliable as most any other legitimate duty pistol.

Because when I called the 1911/2011 finicky you implied that that is not true. Since the 1911 and now the 2011 style are platforms, not specific brand or model, you have to consider what the majority of options are. The Staccato's are great guns. I have never questioned that. There is a reason that the 1911 was phased out for the Beretta for the military. There is a reason that law enforcement has mostly moved away from the 1911.

It’s not a super fan of 185hr SWC with some mags, some mags it’s good.

So you are saying this 1911 is somewhat picky with mag and ammo pairings.

Human safety.

That is what training, form, and education are for.

Snag safety.

Holster. Preferably kydex that full covers the trigger & trigger guard.

External object safety.

Holster, training, form, education.

Carless handling safety.

Again, training, form, education. You later complain that people should just become super competent and safe with their guns. I agree. So the thumb safety should not be needed to cover up negligent handling.

Same as safeties on rifles, carbines, and shotguns.

People do miss safeties when under stress. Does not matter the platform. There are plenty of accounts of hunters squeezing the trigger only to realize the safety is on.

Thumb safeties on a 1911/2011 have literally nothing to do with drop safety. That is the firing pin and luring pin spring in series 70, and the disconnector in series 80’s.

Your exact statement was:
"That is not what thumb safeties are for, or not what they only are for.

Do they now? Who are the overwhelming majority of respectable handgun trainers? And what makes them respectable? How do you know that they are correct?

Haley Strategic, Warrior Poet Society, the late James Yeager from Tactical Response just to name a few business with multiple trainers attached. What makes them respectable? Maybe the fact that they teach proper fundamentals, attendees leave better shooters than when they arrived, they keep getting business? I could ask you the same. What makes you respectable? How do you know you are correct? Just because you like a 1911 and 2011 and feel confident in it does not suddenly invalidate multiple trainers witnessing repetitive failures of shooter forgetting to disengage thumb safeties when under stress.

I mean…. Hundreds of thousands of competitors, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers are using pistols with manual thumb safeties… and not “dying in da streets”….

Army issues the sidearm. The individual is not choosing it. Plenty of competitive shooters would still not recommend a thumb safety for their carry gun. Especially not to the masses of people who will not shoot high volume to develop any muscle memory.

Again, if YouTube paid content “influencers” with low to mediocre skill levels is where you choose to get your information, that is on you. I choose to get my information from doing, and pallets of ammo.

Anyone who watches 10 seconds of their videos will see that they are not low to mediocre in shooting skill.

Data? They for the most part do not provide “data”. Nor have I- to be clear. However, I get my information by doing- not being told what happens. For almost 20 years I have averaged between 30,000 and 80,000 pistol rounds a year. I do not need to ask Garand Thumb what a Staccato does or does not do.

Apparently you should ask since he quite literally demonstrated staccato failures. If you don't consider firearm trainers or youtubers who shoot massive volume of ammunition and variations in guns every year for many, many years as respectable opinion, then you have invalidated your own credentials as being a valid source. If shooting a lot with good form does not make you worth providing any data or opinion, then why should anyone reading care that you shot 30k to 80k per year?

why don’t they just get truly trained so they aren’t bumbling boobs.

I wish everyone would do some level of training, but most will not. This is yet another reason that the thumb safety becomes an issue. A high volume competitive shooter who uses a thumb safety and has muscle memory built up along with professional training is not comparable in to the average person looking to buy a handgun.

Please quote where insulted you. “Ignorance” isn’t an insult.

"Is this from personal experience with a real understanding of the guns?" This is a condescending comment, especially in the context you used it. It is meant as an insult. I don't mind an insult or a jab, but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

However, it is nothing that I pointed out multiple errors in your original post, and instead of acknowledging them- you shift to other things, and talk about “well experts know”.

I believe the only thing I did not address was the shooting technique. I learned different than what you said, but I am actually going to read into it and see if I was in fact wrong.

Really? You need to get off the YouTube/instagram gun world and broaden your shooting view. There are a lot of “serious” gun people using 1911 and 2011’s, and they are being carried by more “serious” gun users now than they were 20 years ago.

Dude, you literally reported one of your 1911's being ammo and mag picky. Multiple 1911 reliability issues are all over the internet in the form of youtube videos so we can actually see the failure happen. 2011 failures are out there as well. It doesn't matter if more people carry a 1911 than they did 20 years ago. That does not just discard the issues the 1911's experience.

What does that have to do with the OP? The OP asked about the C and CS model Staccato’s. They are extremely good pistols.

They are not good for what he is looking for. Your entire argument would lead him to believe they are. Being high quality does not instantly mean it is good for everything. They aren't even consistently drop safe and he is looking for something for hiking/protection in the woods.

What? Why would I “supply evidence supporting why firearms trainers do not recommend 1911’s”?

Ahh, apologies. I forgot to finish the sentence. I meant to say "supply evidence supporting why firearms trainers who do not recommend 1911's are wrong".

Sweet baby Jesus…

There is actual footage of the 2011's failing. There is actual footage of a Staccato not being drop safe.

1911’s and 2011’ are such an advantage, that action competition bodies had to make pistol divisions specifically to exclude them from competing so people had a place to use polymer striker fired and DA/SA guns.

I don't see how you can honestly sit here and imply that people will be 25% better shooters if they just buy a 1911/2011 instead of other designs. There are certain advantages over other designs in some ways, but you have to know how to shoot well before you can see any meaningful benefit.

 

[RockAndSage]

Apologies, you stated no cleaning. Though I do consider many lubricants to provide cleaning qualities.

So, no. It is not verifiable. Still, I am going to concede to your claim to round count due to your history of providing proof to claims in other threads. I have no current reason to doubt your integrity.
Yes, they have clearly been shot a lot. This does not confirm a round count. It just confirms that you shoot and don't wipe down every time.

I think you misunderstood what I mean by ammo variation. I am referring to variation in production of the ammunition. At 40k, you are just likely to have a bad round periodically.

Staccato's own website claims the Staccato C as part of their 2011 family. I disagree with you claiming they are not 2011's.
View attachment 865884

Because when I called the 1911/2011 finicky you implied that that is not true. Since the 1911 and now the 2011 style are platforms, not specific brand or model, you have to consider what the majority of options are. The Staccato's are great guns. I have never questioned that. There is a reason that the 1911 was phased out for the Beretta for the military. There is a reason that law enforcement has mostly moved away from the 1911.

So you are saying this 1911 is somewhat picky with mag and ammo pairings.

That is what training, form, and education are for.

Holster. Preferably kydex that full covers the trigger & trigger guard.

Holster, training, form, education.

Again, training, form, education. You later complain that people should just become super competent and safe with their guns. I agree. So the thumb safety should not be needed to cover up negligent handling.

People do miss safeties when under stress. Does not matter the platform. There are plenty of accounts of hunters squeezing the trigger only to realize the safety is on.

Your exact statement was:
"That is not what thumb safeties are for, or not what they only are for.

Haley Strategic, Warrior Poet Society, the late James Yeager from Tactical Response just to name a few business with multiple trainers attached. What makes them respectable? Maybe the fact that they teach proper fundamentals, attendees leave better shooters than when they arrived, they keep getting business? I could ask you the same. What makes you respectable? How do you know you are correct? Just because you like a 1911 and 2011 and feel confident in it does not suddenly invalidate multiple trainers witnessing repetitive failures of shooter forgetting to disengage thumb safeties when under stress.

Army issues the sidearm. The individual is not choosing it. Plenty of competitive shooters would still not recommend a thumb safety for their carry gun. Especially not to the masses of people who will not shoot high volume to develop any muscle memory.

Anyone who watches 10 seconds of their videos will see that they are not low to mediocre in shooting skill.

Apparently you should ask since he quite literally demonstrated staccato failures. If you don't consider firearm trainers or youtubers who shoot massive volume of ammunition and variations in guns every year for many, many years as respectable opinion, then you have invalidated your own credentials as being a valid source. If shooting a lot with good form does not make you worth providing any data or opinion, then why should anyone reading care that you shot 30k to 80k per year?

I wish everyone would do some level of training, but most will not. This is yet another reason that the thumb safety becomes an issue. A high volume competitive shooter who uses a thumb safety and has muscle memory built up along with professional training is not comparable in to the average person looking to buy a handgun.

"Is this from personal experience with a real understanding of the guns?" This is a condescending comment, especially in the context you used it. It is meant as an insult. I don't mind an insult or a jab, but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

I believe the only thing I did not address was the shooting technique. I learned different than what you said, but I am actually going to read into it and see if I was in fact wrong.

Dude, you literally reported one of your 1911's being ammo and mag picky. Multiple 1911 reliability issues are all over the internet in the form of youtube videos so we can actually see the failure happen. 2011 failures are out there as well. It doesn't matter if more people carry a 1911 than they did 20 years ago. That does not just discard the issues the 1911's experience.

They are not good for what he is looking for. Your entire argument would lead him to believe they are. Being high quality does not instantly mean it is good for everything. They aren't even consistently drop safe and he is looking for something for hiking/protection in the woods.

Ahh, apologies. I forgot to finish the sentence. I meant to say "supply evidence supporting why firearms trainers who do not recommend 1911's are wrong".

There is actual footage of the 2011's failing. There is actual footage of a Staccato not being drop safe.

I don't see how you can honestly sit here and imply that people will be 25% better shooters if they just buy a 1911/2011 instead of other designs. There are certain advantages over other designs in some ways, but you have to know how to shoot well before you can see any meaningful benefit.

I'll add a couple of points for reference in all of this:

1) There is a gulf of difference between 1911 quality, from the cheapest to the most elite off-the-shelf guns. It's the difference between an off-the-lot toyota and a NASCAR "toyota". They cannot legitimately be lumped in together, and any evaluation needs to be specific to both make and model, as Form did above.

2) There is a gulf of difference in reliability between 1911s available before roughly 2005/2010, and those available now. Especially at the high-end, but it shows up even in some of the cheaper guns, which is largely due to the tremendous advancements in manufacturing technology. Current "standard" manufacturing equipment is light-years more precise than advanced stuff any gun company would have manufactured on in the 1990s. This leads to better tolerances, smoother bearing surfaces, and overall just far more reliability in shooting.

3) Before 2000, I wouldn't consider any off-the-shelf 1911 to be combat reliable, especially when compared to a Glock or Sig. At a minimum, they needed tuning and gunsmith-level work. I put a fortune into the ones I had custom built, and in running the daylights out of them for years. My EDC was still a Sig 229.

4) There is a gulf of difference between YouTubers and any "gun instructor" the public has generally ever heard of, vs the quiet elite who replace their recoil springs more often than most shooters even go to the range. Few realize this, at all. Including those public figures. Public figures (making part of their money via public persona and content) are not a good benchmark for what elite really is - but they are a good benchmark for what the average shooter should at least be able to set their training standards to. They are also a good reference in what they say the "average shooter" is like, because as instructors in that space - that's virtually all they see, at every class. Because that's where the money is. The new and average masses. Shooters needing the gun equivalent of a highschool driver's ed class. Would you have a new driver start on a manual transmission? Especially a high-performance one? There's an analogy there with a high-performance 1911 and a thumb safety.

5) The thumb-safety issue is binary - for the new and inexperienced it can be a problem, but with even a modicum of training it's not an issue in the slightest. Same with red-dots, same with front-sight focus, same with deploying a weapon-mounted light, same with mag-changes, same with Bill Drills, same with drawing from concealed, etc, etc, etc. What is particularly annoying about the thumb-safety commentary is watching YouTubers and the chairborne commandos on gun forums parroting the meme that "in combat you'll forget!!" The depth of my derision for this meme-hustle knows no end - it is utter bull$h*t, to anyone beyond a 101 class of 1911 experience. But on the internet is has become God's Truth, as so many other tactical-timmyisms and Fudd-lore have.

If the OP was just planning on picking up a new handgun and putting a few hundred rounds downrange, it'd be hard to beat one of the Sig 365 variants, all things balanced out. But if he's willing to put about 2000 rounds downrange under instruction across a class or two from a competent instructor, he'd be running a Staccato without a hiccup - and hitting a lot better, a lot faster, than with any Glock or Sig 365. The 'drawbacks' of the modern 1911/2011 are just not issues with training and knowledge, anymore than a manual transmission's a problem for people who actually drive them.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

I'll add a couple of points for reference in all of this:

1) There is a gulf of difference between 1911 quality, from the cheapest to the most elite off-the-shelf guns. It's the difference between an off-the-lot toyota and a NASCAR "toyota". They cannot legitimately be lumped in together, and any evaluation needs to be specific to both make and model, as Form did above.

2) There is a gulf of difference in reliability between 1911s available before roughly 2005/2010, and those available now. Especially at the high-end, but it shows up even in some of the cheaper guns, which is largely due to the tremendous advancements in manufacturing technology. Current "standard" manufacturing equipment is light-years more precise than advanced stuff any gun company would have manufactured on in the 1990s. This leads to better tolerances, smoother bearing surfaces, and overall just far more reliability in shooting.

Agreed. It is much easier to make something perform better for cheap now. 1911's are certainly better today than years ago.

3) Before 2000, I wouldn't consider any off-the-shelf 1911 to be combat reliable, especially when compared to a Glock or Sig. At a minimum, they needed tuning and gunsmith-level work. I put a fortune into the ones I had custom built, and in running the daylights out of them for years. My EDC was still a Sig 229.

For me, when I think of off the shelf I am envisioning Springfield, Sig, Kimber, RIA, etc. I would not personally have faith in them being what I envision as combat reliable. However, once you get to nighthawk, staccato, wilson, etc., my confidence would definitely increase. I think many people would consider them reliable enough. I don't personally, but others definitely do. I would still expect to have to experiment with magazines and ammo quite a bit.

4) There is a gulf of difference between YouTubers and any "gun instructor" the public has generally ever heard of, vs the quiet elite who replace their recoil springs more often than most shooters even go to the range. Few realize this, at all. Including those public figures. Public figures (making part of their money via public persona and content) are not a good benchmark for what elite really is

I get what you are saying, but I do think we need to be careful to discredit competence and determine someone as not elite just because they are good at marketing and are in the public image. I do agree that public image does not make you reputable by default though. Sage Dynamics would absolutely be elite by any metric I could think of for an instructor and he runs a youtube channel, but there are obviously plenty of channels and lesser known instructors who are either incompetent or provide little information in their teaching.

- but they are a good benchmark for what the average shooter should at least be able to set their training standards to. They are also a good reference in what they say the "average shooter" is like, because as instructors in that space - that's virtually all they see, at every class. Because that's where the money is. The new and average masses. Shooters needing the gun equivalent of a highschool driver's ed class. Would you have a new driver start on a manual transmission? Especially a high-performance one? There's an analogy there with a high-performance 1911 and a thumb safety.

Agreed.

5) The thumb-safety issue is binary - for the new and inexperienced it can be a problem, but with even a modicum of training it's not an issue in the slightest. Same with red-dots, same with front-sight focus, same with deploying a weapon-mounted light, same with mag-changes, same with Bill Drills, same with drawing from concealed, etc, etc, etc. What is particularly annoying about the thumb-safety commentary is watching YouTubers and the chairborne commandos on gun forums parroting the meme that "in combat you'll forget!!" The depth of my derision for this meme-hustle knows no end - it is utter bull$h*t, to anyone beyond a 101 class of 1911 experience. But on the internet is has become God's Truth, as so many other tactical-timmyisms and Fudd-lore have.

I do disagree a bit on how little training is needed. Or, rather how much maintenance is needed. A great instructor could take someone with no experience and build a great fundamental base in probably a short time. Good teachers (and a good learner without bad habits) can develop fast. However, if you do not maintain the training, I do believe you fall back to lower performance and be prone to mistakes. For all the gun owners I have personally met, I would guess over 90% will shoot 500 rounds of ammunition through all firearms in their life. And I do not think they are the exceptions (although I wish they were).

If the OP was just planning on picking up a new handgun and putting a few hundred rounds downrange, it'd be hard to beat one of the Sig 365 variants, all things balanced out.

The MACRO has won a lot of people over for sure.

But if he's willing to put about 2000 rounds downrange under instruction across a class or two from a competent instructor, he'd be running a Staccato without a hiccup - and hitting a lot better, a lot faster, than with any Glock or Sig 365. The 'drawbacks' of the modern 1911/2011 are just not issues with training and knowledge, anymore than a manual transmission's a problem for people who actually drive them.