Most reliable and shootable 9mm semi auto pistols

[Tacoland]

I wish everyone would do some level of training, but most will not. This is yet another reason that the thumb safety becomes an issue.

This logic has never really made sense to me. You're starting with the (correct) assumption that the vast majority of people who carry a handgun are neither well trained on the system nor particularly effective.

In many areas, people are more likely to have an ND than a discharge in self defense. I wish there was more reliable data on this though.

Regardless, the anti-thumb saftey argument goes: People don't have enough training to handle a firearm correctly in high stress situations. So we should make it extremely easy to ensure the gun goes bang.

Wouldn't the better argument be: People don't have enough training to safely and reliably handle a firearm in day-to-day use, much less under pressure. So we should make the firearm a little safer for them and everyone else around them, particularly given the fact that they are statistically unlikely to actually discharge their weapon in a defensive situation (plus with poor training who knows where that bullet is going anyways).

I can see both sides here, and a few of my regular carry choices don't have a thumb saftey. But switching back to a thumb saftey 1911 or micro isn't ever an issue, because flipping it off is part of building a proper grip on those weapons.

 

[Skydog]

I'd be curious to see how a survey/poll of genuine "elites"/credible instructors would turn out if you provided them with the OP's criteria and asked them what the OP - as a first-time pistol buyer with minimal experience - should buy. I would suspect that the vast majority would recommend something like the G19.

It would also be interesting to see if many of these same "elites" have concerns about Glocks being unsafe due to the lack of a manual safety. I mean, if we are assuming that everyone trains to be proficient enough to work a manual safety in their sleep, wouldn't they also be proficient enough to not shoot themselves while reholstering a Glock?

@HighUintas - one thing you could do is contact the place(s) you are considering training with and ask the instructors what they recommend that you buy to bring to their class.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

This logic has never really made sense to me. You're starting with the (correct) assumption that the vast majority of people who carry a handgun are neither well trained on the system nor particularly effective.

In many areas, people are more likely to have an ND than a discharge in self defense. I wish there was more reliable data on this though.

Ultimately, I think our concern keeps coming back to not being able to use the gun safely and competently. It sounds like you are more concerned with an ND rather than the self defense scenario, but I would be the opposite. I don't think you are wrong though. Rather, I think some folks will put more emphasis on the concern for an ND where others will focus more on the defensive scenario. They would both be valid concerns in my opinion. One just outweighs the other in terms of risk for me.

Regardless, the anti-thumb saftey argument goes: People don't have enough training to handle a firearm correctly in high stress situations. So we should make it extremely easy to ensure the gun goes bang.

If the gun is for self defense, I agree that this would the goal. Make the gun go bang as fast as possible into the threat.

Wouldn't the better argument be: People don't have enough training to safely and reliably handle a firearm in day-to-day use, much less under pressure. So we should make the firearm a little safer for them and everyone else around them,

Agreed, but to me, you make it safer by using quality holsters, buying reputable brands, and not playing with the gun. I don't think putting barriers into the gun itself is the best solution. If it is in your holster (and it is quality and the gun is drop safe), it is literally not going to go off.

particularly given the fact that they are statistically unlikely to actually discharge their weapon in a defensive situation

True, but if your purpose for carrying a gun is for defense, would you not optimize it for that task? If you ever listen to people who survived a defensive encounter (robbery, defensive shooting, etc.), they consistently say "it happened so fast', "idk how it happened, it just came out of nowhere", "I just never thought it would happen to me". When I think of something so horrific and overwhelming and overstimulating happening, it is so easy for me to see where I am going to make a mistake with the thumb safety.

(plus with poor training who knows where that bullet is going anyways).

True, you are responsible for the bullet. However, if you are drawing in a defensive scenario, it is quite literally life or death. To me, that outweighs the risk.

I can see both sides here, and a few of my regular carry choices don't have a thumb saftey. But switching back to a thumb saftey 1911 or micro isn't ever an issue, because flipping it off is part of building a proper grip on those weapons.

Obviously I do disagree on the ease of going back and forth, or use in general for the majority. I disagree a lot more for the smaller designs and really other designs in general. The 1911, Sig M18/M17, and the M&P do (in my opinion) have the best safety design if you must require one. Some of the CZ's are good as well. However, you also get safeties like the kimber micro 9 which I did find very easy to miss depressing, the S&W Shield, the P365, and others that are either too small, oddly placed, etc.

 

[Skydog]

In many areas, people are more likely to have an ND than a discharge in self defense. I wish there was more reliable data on this though.

Are you assuming that all NDs are from guns without manual safeties?

 

[wind gypsy]

I guess I misunderstood the OP’s original question. I thought he was asking for suggestions about a bear country handgun. My first reaction was to laugh at the “9mm” stipulation. For a bear gun? Really?
Let me know how that works for you lol.

Welcome to rokslide?

I'm sure you can find plenty on this discussion elsewhere but it goes something like this - any handgun pushing a slow chunk of lead is not going to stop a bear by shooting it in the chest anyway. Choosing something that is easier to shoot quickly, accurately, and put more rounds on target may be better than something bigger that isn't going to quickly incapacitate a bear without a CNS hit anyway. If its something you're more likely to keep on your person all the time, all the better.

 

[bdg848]

I'm starting to look at pistols to carry while hunting and hiking as I'll be moving to an area with higher bear pop in a year or two. I haven't owned one and have minimal experience shooting a pistol.

I don't know if I'll buy one this year , but thought I should get one and become confident with it before moving.

Goal and use:
- probably won't conceal carry
- no competition plans
- mostly for backpacking, hunting, etc. So, lightweight. Not so small it hinders shootability
- 9mm
- great in reliability in factory (or nearly) form. I want a Tikka pistol. Shoot it dirty for it's life and it still works
- shootability - I've read Glocks are not particularly shootable
- speed - as it's mainly for bear protection, I want to be able to put as many rounds as quickly as I can into poi
- I don't really want to "need" to upgrade. One and done purchase.
- not sure on optic ... If it truly would help with speed and accuracy, then maybe. But it's another failure point to deal with
- prefer to have manual safety

That said, I've been looking into Glocks, Sig, and staccato.

- g19, g45, g48 - maybe g43 or 43x but they seem too small
- p320 m18, p320 x compact, p320 x carry, p365xl
- staccato c or cs

First question... Would I actually see any of the benefit of the staccato unless I became an extremely good shooter?

Because the g45 and g48 seem to be variants of the g19, are they just as reliable?

Does a slimmer grip generally hurt or hinder shootability (g48 vs g45)? I realize it's probably just a personal thing

Is there much difference in reliability between the Glocks and the p320/p365? Much difference in reliability between the different p320 models?

Having not carried a pistol before... For backpack hunters where weight/space is a concern, would a subcompact be better or are the sizes of those above small enough to not be an issue? (Again, probably personal preference)

Also, yes there is a range with rentals nearby and I'll do that before purchasing

Staccatos are tied with Glock for the most overrated guns ever. They are fine, but overrated. I like the sig p365XMacro as far as a balance between size and capacity.

 

[Tacoland]

Yeah my concern with an ND is from seeing it happen. The bar is so dang low for so many people who carry, LE included. If I wasn't able to shoot as much as I can, I probably wouldn't carry very often because I 100% agree with you that the skills degrade extremely fast and then bad mistakes happen.

Agreed, but to me, you make it safer by using quality holsters, buying reputable brands, and not playing with the gun. I don't think putting barriers into the gun itself is the best solution. If it is in your holster (and it is quality and the gun is drop safe), it is literally not going to go off.

To an extent, I agree - but the keep it in a holster at all times isn't really reality for a lot of situations. A few quick examples:

- Anytime you're at the range (we've all been flagged by some moron holstering)
- Swap from carry holster to pack holster
- Thick brush/hard falls. I've had an M&P get yanked from a Kenai chest holster on a stalk through thick, nasty stuff. That's a quality holster that's well-regarded. I still use it, but I appreciated the thumb saftey a lot that day.

When I think of something so horrific and overwhelming and overstimulating happening, it is so easy for me to see where I am going to make a mistake with the thumb safety.

This just comes back to training though, doesn't it? Running timed drills, competing, etc. does a lot for your ability to replicate performance in high pressure scenarios. It seems like we both agree that 1911/M&P/Sig style thumb safety's aren't bad, and really are a part of building the grip on that system. So the question becomes if someone can't reliably build a grip under pressure, how on earth are they expected to reliably put rounds on target under pressure?

However, you also get safeties like the kimber micro 9 which I did find very easy to miss depressing

Yeah, obviously not every setup is optimal. Funny though, I can run a p238 which is pretty similar to the micro 9 pretty well (for a micro).

 

[Tacoland]

Are you assuming that all NDs are from guns without manual safeties?

lol fair point! My gut instinct is that the majority are just based on sheer prevalence alone. But obviously no one knows the real data.

 

[bdg848]

I’m not sure what part specifically you are referring to.






DA/SA is a silly solution to a non real problem. Single action only with a thumb safety, or striker fired- preferably with a thumb safety.

DA/SA is no sillier than a Glock with a aftermarket trigger weight that puts it in the single action category except it doesn't have a thumb safety to prevent it from going off when lightly brushed. If you don't want a thumb safety then a long smooth double action is the safety followed by short crisp single action shots. It fills the exact same niche as a single action but without a safety to disengage and it does it safely unlike a gucci glock.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Yeah my concern with an ND is from seeing it happen. The bar is so dang low for so many people who carry, LE included. If I wasn't able to shoot as much as I can, I probably wouldn't carry very often because I 100% agree with you that the skills degrade extremely fast and then bad mistakes happen.

I was very disappointed in myself when I took 6 months of from shooting when we had my second son. It took a long while to get back into a decent trigger squeeze.

To an extent, I agree - but the keep it in a holster at all times isn't really reality for a lot of situations. A few quick examples:

- Anytime you're at the range (we've all been flagged by some moron holstering)

I have never noticed it in person but am truly terrified after seeing security cam footage online from ranges. I am fortunate to have private land to shoot at now. I only go to ranges for rifle these days.

- Swap from carry holster to pack holster

Agree. Definitely a risk. I have been looking at QD options that let you keep the same holster for that reason. I prefer to only draw from holster for shooting, storage and maintenance.

- Thick brush/hard falls. I've had an M&P get yanked from a Kenai chest holster on a stalk through thick, nasty stuff. That's a quality holster that's well-regarded. I still use it, but I appreciated the thumb saftey a lot that day.

Geez, I have a kenai is well. That is some serious force to yank that out. They have great tension. What made it come out?

This just comes back to training though, doesn't it? Running timed drills, competing, etc. does a lot for your ability to replicate performance in high pressure scenarios.

10/10 agree.

It seems like we both agree that 1911/M&P/Sig style thumb safety's aren't bad, and really are a part of building the grip on that system.

I agree that they are the best designed thumb safety. I just personally won't switch back to using thumb safeties for anything defensive. Competition/recreation, no worries. If thumb safety handguns became mandatory tomorrow, I would be looking at the M&P or Sig due to their larger safeties and placement.

So the question becomes if someone can't reliably build a grip under pressure, how on earth are they expected to reliably put rounds on target under pressure?

Honestly, I think most peoples hopes are to make the first round count in a bad situation. Not saying that is right or wrong.

Yeah, obviously not every setup is optimal. Funny though, I can run a p238 which is pretty similar to the micro 9 pretty well (for a micro).

I ironically (given my allergy to a thumb safety) have one as well. Father-in-law gifted it so I am very sentimental to it. I have struggled to ever get quick with depressing the safety when trying to make it a carry gun in the past. They are nice shooters, but mine will not run hollow points well. Hornady crit. defense nor federal (I don't remember which federal). It will run FMJ well though.

 

[Formidilosus]

Apologies, you stated no cleaning. Though I do consider many lubricants to provide cleaning qualities.

Really? Even in this, you aren’t able to say- yep, you didn’t say that. Period- the end. Don’t add a ridiculous qualifier to it. Dont straw-man what I wrote because you are unwilling to admit you were wrong.

I realize that you are not having a good faith conversation, and are not trying to see if you have incorrect beliefs, or have been mislead. I will address below and then probably be done as I am not interested in a circular BS back and forth.

So, no. It is not verifiable. Still, I am going to concede to your claim to round count due to your history of providing proof to claims in other threads. I have no current reason to doubt your integrity.
Yes, they have clearly been shot a lot. This does not confirm a round count. It just confirms that you shoot and don't wipe down every time.

Ok. Your logic here is lacking- you don’t know how much themselves shot a

I think you misunderstood what I mean by ammo variation. I am referring to variation in production of the ammunition. At 40k, you are just likely to have a bad round periodically.

Are you? You know this due to what personal experience? And with what ammo?

Staccato's own website claims the Staccato C as part of their 2011 family. I disagree with you claiming they are not 2011's.

Again, either you are completely ignorant of what 2011’s are, or you will not admit to being incorrect. A 2011- uses 2011 magazines. It’s a pretty significant difference. It doesn’t matter what a website states- try to put a 2011 magazine into a C or CS.

Because when I called the 1911/2011 finicky you implied that that is not true.

Because the OP specifically was speaking to a SPECIFIC pistol. If he would have asked about an Atlas, my response would be different.

Since the 1911 and now the 2011 style are platforms, not specific brand or model, you have to consider what the majority of options are.

No, I don’t. I only need to consider the specific pistol the OP asked about, and/or ignorant comments made about the suitability in general. There are now Glock copy pistols. They suck. Should now Glock pistols be tainted and called “finicky and unreliable” because others have copied the Glock? Of course not.

Though I’m sure you won’t concede this either.

The Staccato's are great guns. I have never questioned that. There is a reason that the 1911 was phased out for the Beretta for the military. There is a reason that law enforcement has mostly moved away from the 1911.

Next are you going to bring up Moros?

Why are you engaging in this nonsense? Do you have any personal experience as to why the US military adopted the M9? Or at least greatly studied and researched it? Is the issued 1911 of 1984 the same pistol as today? Are you a poorly trained soldier that may get to shoot 30 rounds a year from a pistol?
If the answer is no to those- stop bringing BS up.

Talk about what you personally know.

So you are saying this 1911 is somewhat picky with mag and ammo pairings.

Do you know what a 185gr SWC is? You must not. They do not feed from ANY pistol well, and especially modern polymer pistols.

Again, stop trying to “win” an argument about subjects you don’t understand.

That is what training, form, and education are for.

Holster. Preferably kydex that full covers the trigger & trigger guard.

Holster, training, form, education.

Again, training, form, education. You later complain that people should just become super competent and safe with their guns. I agree. So the thumb safety should not be needed to cover up negligent handling.

Ok.

People do miss safeties when under stress. Does not matter the platform. There are plenty of accounts of hunters squeezing the trigger only to realize the safety is on.

Ok.

Haley Strategic, Warrior Poet Society, the late James Yeager from Tactical Response just to name a few business with multiple trainers attached. What makes them respectable?

Now we’re into James Yeager? Ok. I haven’t said any of those people are respectable, or not. Again, step away from YouTube. It is the cesspool of the shooting world.

Maybe the fact that they teach proper fundamentals, attendees leave better shooters than when they arrived, they keep getting business?

Do they? What’s proper fundamentals? How do you know they are proper? Have you trained with all of those people?

I could ask you the same. What makes you respectable?

I’m a lot of things, respectable is probably in question.

How do you know you are correct?

You don’t. So I’ll say it for about the 6th or 7th time- get off YouTube, go start shooting. Shoot until you are extremely skilled using real metric- USPSA is the easiest and best option. Then switch pistols and do it again. Then again. Then again. Then come back and engage in a discussion about things you personally understand from your personal experience.

Just because you like a 1911 and 2011 and feel confident in it does not suddenly invalidate multiple trainers witnessing repetitive failures of shooter forgetting to disengage thumb safeties when under stress.

You probably won’t on the forum, but in your real life- can you even step back and think about what you wrote here? Why are you constantly “appealing to authority”? Why do you need someone to invalidate something someone else said? And worse, it’s not “suddenly”. Only people brand new to the “tactical” world would think this argument is new. It’s been going on my whole life. I also believed all the BS- until I got my own skill and knowledge, and realized that gun writers (and now “influencers”) are by and large FOS. Just as they are in the “hunting world”, the tactical world is filled with utter rubbish- because people watch it and buy it.

Go shoot and find out for yourself.

Army issues the sidearm. The individual is not choosing it. Plenty of competitive shooters would still not recommend a thumb safety for their carry gun. Especially not to the masses of people who will not shoot high volume to develop any muscle memory.

Ok

Anyone who watches 10 seconds of their videos will see that they are not low to mediocre in shooting skill.

Compared to what? Compared to bumbling boobs? Because if comparing to people that take shooting serious- they are low to mediocre.

It’s like you can’t separate cut and split YouTube videos that are specifically edited to look good, from on-demand shooting skill. If you are going to watch videos on YouTube about shooting skill, watch videos from IPSC and USPSA Grandmasters- that is real skill, on demand and measured. If you are looking for “tactical” trainers, there some good ones too… not springy they will generally have a high level competition background.

Apparently you should ask since he quite literally demonstrated staccato failures. If you don't consider firearm trainers or youtubers who shoot massive volume of ammunition and variations in guns every year for many, many years as respectable opinion,

You keep harping on this “drop safety”, yet have not shown a single inkling that that you actually understand what is really being talked about. I do not consider the opinions
about guns or shooting skill from the people that you listed.

Now, it could be because I am a misinformed arrogant idiot and they are the best in the world. Or it could be because I see the world differently due to knowledge, skill, ability, and experience. Doesn’t really matter either way, I am not selling you anything. I am suggesting that you broaden your horizon a bit.

then you have invalidated your own credentials as being a valid source. If shooting a lot with good form does not make you worth providing any data or opinion, then why should anyone reading care that you shot 30k to 80k per year?

They shouldn’t care that I shoot a lot.


Cont…..

 

[Formidilosus]

I wish everyone would do some level of training, but most will not. This is yet another reason that the thumb safety becomes an issue. A high volume competitive shooter who uses a thumb safety and has muscle memory built up along with professional training is not comparable in to the average person looking to buy a handgun.

Ok.

I don’t care about the average person buying a handgun. If you are going to buy pistol and not gain actual skill in its use- you are bumbling boob and I do not care what that person thinks or says about it. It’s akin to a 450lb chair bound fat person that can’t walk to the fridge trying to talk fitness and health.

"Is this from personal experience with a real understanding of the guns?" This is a condescending comment, especially in the context you used it. It is meant as an insult. I don't mind an insult or a jab, but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Wtf. You can not be this obtuse. I literally asked if your statements were from your experience or YouTube because what you were stating seemed like social media drivel.

I believe the only thing I did not address was the shooting technique. I learned different than what you said, but I am actually going to read into it and see if I was in fact wrong.

Brian Enos- Beyond Fundamentals.

Dude, you literally reported one of your 1911's being ammo and mag picky.

See above ref: 185gr SWC.

Multiple 1911 reliability issues are all over the internet in the form of youtube videos so we can actually see the failure happen. 2011 failures are out there as well. It doesn't matter if more people carry a 1911 than they did 20 years ago. That does not just discard the issues the 1911's experience.

Again- what is your experience with the platform? If the answer is “none” or “very little”, then why are you arguing with someone that seems to have vast experience with it?

If I don’t know about a subject, I don’t argue with people that do- I ask questions to be educated and learn.

They are not good for what he is looking for.

How do you know? Again- have you used a C or CS? If you have, please logically why they aren’t a good choice- because used them, and used them for his exact stated use.

If you haven’t used them, again- why are you arguing about something you don’t have experience with?

Ahh, apologies. I forgot to finish the sentence. I meant to say "supply evidence supporting why firearms trainers who do not recommend 1911's are wrong".

I don’t care to argue about random people’s opinion. The fundamental issue between your position and mine is that it seems you are putting all your weight into what random, anonymous drama for content creators say about guns- who NEED content and drama to pay them; without any, or at best very little experience with the items and “issues” presented. I am using my own personal experience for mine.

Saying “content creators on YouTube say”- is a low intelligence and uncompelling argument, and lacks logical critical thinking.

There is actual footage of the 2011's failing. There is actual footage of a Staccato not being drop safe.

See above.

I don't see how you can honestly sit here and imply that people will be 25% better shooters if they just buy a 1911/2011 instead of other designs. There are certain advantages over other designs in some ways, but you have to know how to shoot well before you can see any meaningful benefit.

I can sit here and say it because I have been involved in high level shooting of pistols for relatively long time. A very high level. And that shooting has directly involved every pistol type talked about. But, I am no one, so you shit don’t believe me. However the largest source of actual raw data exists and is open- USPSA/practiscore. 1911/2011’s, as well as the CZ shadow 2 cause less effect from shooter induced errors…. So shooters- all shooters, score higher with them. Surprise-surprise, when you measure shooters for score and time- you know, actual performance; things aren't equal, not the least of which are pistols. Those that are easier to hit with, are easier to hit with. If you like, you can change it to- people shoot less worse with 1911’s/2011’s.

They are equal in your mind only.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm sure this is true but the new staccato HD is being advertised as being drop safe to make people feel better at least. I don't know enough to know if it's an upgrade overall or not. Seems like yours have done just fine as is.

The HD has a series 80 trigger system. The whole fiasco drama llama came about from a PD that had someone that hated 2011’s and wanted to get them removed from use/consideration.

I've seen endless debates about similar issues with the p320 series as well. I don't have one so haven't cared enough to get to the bottom of it.

The P320 is also a complicated topic, but way beyond what a series 70 1911 or 2011 trigger is.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus since we’ve seemed to breach the staccato subject a bit, what is your observation/opinion of the new HD?

They are good guns. I believe removing the grip safety was a mistake personally, but is probably a better move from a contract angle. Also, it was asked for the mags to be Sig P320 mags, however others wanted Glock and that’s what they went with- again, not my preference, but probably a good thing for sells.

The pistol should do well for them- it is a legitimate.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form,

Any experience with other .22WMR pistols? Like the S&W or Walther?

Not as much and I wouldn’t feel comfortable talking about them.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

They are good guns. I believe removing the grip safety was a mistake personally, but is probably a better move from a contract angle. Also, it was asked for the mags to be Sig P320 mags, however others wanted Glock and that’s what they went with- again, not my preference, but probably a good thing for sells.

The pistol should do well for them- it is a legitimate.

Thank you. Why do you say you think removing the grip safety was a mistake?

And since you've had some extensive experience with them, do you see the aluminum frame of the C to be a concern long term? It seems to be one of the possibly dumb things that gets brought up often.

 

[Formidilosus]

Have you spent any time with the p238? I've only shot the g42 once and don't spend much time on glock platforms so it's not a fair comparison, but I've been able to run the p238 reasonably well (much better than the g42/g43) for a micro.

Not enough to form any strong views. I don’t see why it would be a bad choice if it is reliable for you.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks. So it seems, you're mostly concerned with shootability and that comes in full size form, right?

Generally yes- for concealed carry. For a field gun, size and weight too. Hence my personal choice to use a PMR30 at times.

Shouldn't I consider a full size gun w safety over a p365, if I'm ok with carrying it? The grip on the x macro and fuse, while they die feel good, they did feel narrow and a little too small.

Sure. It depends on how much you value weight and size. The nice thing about the P365 in the larger formats, is that while thin and light, they can be shot very well. If you want to maximize shooting performance, then yes- I would look at a different pistol.

What would the recommendations be for light full size with safety?

Haha. Light and full size go against each other. When I am after shooting performance- it is a proper 1911 or 2011 platform. IF, I need a full size 9mm plus, but for some reason not a hammer fired pistol, then currently it is an Sig M18 with Broweur M1811 grip module and Dawson Sights or a dot.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thank you. Why do you say you think removing the grip safety was a mistake?

I’ll be candid- Because a pistol is pointed at my most favorite body part, I really REALLY like some redundancies in that gun not firing. A properly timed 1911/2011 grip safety is totally innocuous to the user, but makes that trigger near impossible to fall when not meaning it to. I’ve watched dudes under stress reholster and have pieces of garments get caught in the trigger guard and fire the gun- once in appendix. Fortunately that one was with simunitions. That particular user was adamant that thumb safeties were stupid, and that there was never an issue with him. He was a very competent person. After the event, he went and put the Glock in the box and grabbed an Sig M18 and said- I guess I am learning this now.

And since you've had some extensive experience with them, do you see the aluminum frame of the C to be a concern long term? It seems to be one of the possibly dumb things that gets brought up often.

Non issue.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

I realize that you are not having a good faith conversation, and are not trying to see if you have incorrect beliefs, or have been mislead. I will address below and then probably be done as I am not interested in a circular BS back and forth.

We have definitely hit the character cap for a post so I will have to be brief and delete some parts of the response out. I am in fact having a good faith conversation. Becoming frustrated that I have not accepted everything you said as gospel does suddenly mean I am coming at you will ill intent.

Are you? You know this due to what personal experience? And with what ammo?

I don't even understand what you are asking? Do you want a list of every brand and model of ammunition I have shot? Anything ranging from cheap reloads to boutique defensive and many in-between. Freedom munitions, AAC, PMC, Winchester, Hornady, Federal. Multiple different models/skews within each brand. And yes, me personally shooting or physically being with someone shooting.

Again, either you are completely ignorant of what 2011’s are, or you will not admit to being incorrect. A 2011- uses 2011 magazines. It’s a pretty significant difference. It doesn’t matter what a website states- try to put a 2011 magazine into a C or CS.

Okay seriously, you will accuse of me not having good faith in the conversation but you will actually disagree with the manufacturer on how they classify the product they make? I am aware that they have specific mags (traditionally), but as the creator/trademark holder (I believe they still hold the trademark), they can call it whatever they want. They could bastardize the 2011 and make it run on Glock mags and still call it a 2011. In-fact I believe one company did that exact thing with sig mags although they cannot truly call it a 2011 since it is not made by Staccato.

Though I’m sure you won’t concede this either.

No, but I will end the conversation since all we are doing is back and forth and you appear to be getting frustrated.

Now we’re into James Yeager? Ok. I haven’t said any of those people are respectable, or not.

Dude, you are legitimately pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.

Again, step away from YouTube. It is the cesspool of the shooting world.
Do they? What’s proper fundamentals? How do you know they are proper? Have you trained with all of those people?
I’m a lot of things, respectable is probably in question.
You don’t. So I’ll say it for about the 6th or 7th time- get off YouTube, go start shooting. Shoot until you are extremely skilled using real metric- USPSA is the easiest and best option. Then switch pistols and do it again. Then again. Then again. Then come back and engage in a discussion about things you personally understand from your personal experience.

Again, ending this conversation.

You probably won’t on the forum, but in your real life- can you even step back and think about what you wrote here? Why are you constantly “appealing to authority”? Why do you need someone to invalidate something someone else said? And worse, it’s not “suddenly”. Only people brand new to the “tactical” world would think this argument is new. It’s been going on my whole life. I also believed all the BS- until I got my own skill and knowledge, and realized that gun writers (and now “influencers”) are by and large FOS. Just as they are in the “hunting world”, the tactical world is filled with utter rubbish- because people watch it and buy it.
Go shoot and find out for yourself.

You imply so much malice on my end. Who am I appealing to? Have you reflected on the conversation? You literally are disagreeing with calling a gun what the manufacturer calls it. The manufacturer who literally coined the term. With your logic, Glock could make a new gun that takes Sig mags and you would honestly say it is not a Glock.

Compared to what? Compared to bumbling boobs? Because if comparing to people that take shooting serious- they are low to mediocre.
It’s like you can’t separate cut and split YouTube videos that are specifically edited to look good, from on-demand shooting skill. If you are going to watch videos on YouTube about shooting skill, watch videos from IPSC and USPSA Grandmasters- that is real skill, on demand and measured. If you are looking for “tactical” trainers, there some good ones too… not springy they will generally have a high level competition background.

Sounds more like anyone you don't personally like, or any task you don't personally partake in is just invalid.

You keep harping on this “drop safety”, yet have not shown a single inkling that that you actually understand what is really being talked about. I do not consider the opinions about guns or shooting skill from the people that you listed.

Dude, I do not need to be able to quote facts of the firing pin and different designs to be able to observe a gun fail a drop safety test. It is great that you can. " I do not consider the opinions about guns or shooting skill from the people that you listed." --> That pretty much sums up the entire conversation better than I ever could have.

Now, it could be because I am a misinformed arrogant idiot and they are the best in the world. Or it could be because I see the world differently due to knowledge, skill, ability, and experience. Doesn’t really matter either way, I am not selling you anything. I am suggesting that you broaden your horizon a bit.

We are all aware you are not an idiot.

They shouldn’t care that I shoot a lot.

If you actually believe that to be true, you are dense. I assure you people do. Heck, I do. It is partially why people search for your response on calibers and other topics here.