More Colorado OTC archery units set to move to draw in 2020...

[orionthehunter1]

CPW is doing a series of public meetings across the Southwest in Feb: Dolores, Pagosa Springs, Norwood and Durango. I’m gonna go check out the Durango meeting and will report back.

Where are you seeing these February meetings at? These are the only ones they have listed

 

[Poser]

Where are you seeing these February meetings at? These are the only ones they have listedView attachment 149963

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www.dovecreekpress.com

 

[orionthehunter1]

thanks you would think they would list those on their website

 

[Zeke6951]

I have not read all of the post on this thread. I have hunted OTC for the last 20 years. In that time one year I did decide to get out of the points race and used 9PP for a 5 PP unit. I realized I would never reach my goal of Unit 76.

I did read some of the articles that said bowhunters disturbing the elk were a part of the elk number decline in the SW area of the state. I know this is a long post but i think it points out that bowhunters are not the only disturbance that elk contend with during the rut.
Two years ago (the year of the fires west of Durango) our group of 5 packed in about a mile from a trail head. We spent 1/2 day packing in a comfortable base camp. From the first morning of the hunt until we left there was a steady stream of hikers, bikers, picnickers, photographers, dog walkers and to a lesser extent bowhunters. Fire restrictions were in place for all of DeLores County. On the opening morning we came across a group of campers. They were 3 to 4 miles from the trailhead. They were the Open Sky wilderness therapy group. One of there group was walking around a couple of hundred yards from their camp site screaming his name to the top of his lungs. They had a campfire and I was told that they didn't have to adhere to the restrictions because they were permitted by the forest service. We hiked on up the trail about 2 more miles and did find some elk near large meadow. The wind was wrong and we decided to go back to camp and be at the meadow at daylight the next morning. The next morning we hiked through their camp without disturbing anyone. We got to the elk meadow and I'll be danged if there was not another group of therapist camping in the edge of the meadow. No elk were heard that morning nor for the rest of our hunt.
If archery hunters are to be restricted, Why do other recreators not have any restrictions? Why do they not have to pay $670 a month to recreate? As to the ATVs mentioned back a few post. I have seen their tracts miles from any legal trail. I have seen beaver ponds that looked like a motor cross race had taken place in it. I reported to the FS, I told the CO that checked our license. He said ATVers brought in more money than hunters and the judge would only fine them a couple of hundred dollars. It wasn't worth his time.
I personally think it is all about $. I don't think they will reduce tags. I think that every one that applies will get a tag but have to buy a qualifing tag to apply. Think how many $ that will bring in.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[Poser]

I have not read all of the post on this thread. I have hunted OTC for the last 20 years. In that time one year I did decide to get out of the points race and used 9PP for a 5 PP unit. I realized I would never reach my goal of Unit 76.

I did read some of the articles that said bowhunters disturbing the elk were a part of the elk number decline in the SW area of the state. I know this is a long post but i think it points out that bowhunters are not the only disturbance that elk contend with during the rut.
Two years ago (the year of the fires west of Durango) our group of 5 packed in about a mile from a trail head. We spent 1/2 day packing in a comfortable base camp. From the first morning of the hunt until we left there was a steady stream of hikers, bikers, picnickers, photographers, dog walkers and to a lesser extent bowhunters. Fire restrictions were in place for all of DeLores County. On the opening morning we came across a group of campers. They were 3 to 4 miles from the trailhead. They were the Open Sky wilderness therapy group. One of there group was walking around a couple of hundred yards from their camp site screaming his name to the top of his lungs. They had a campfire and I was told that they didn't have to adhere to the restrictions because they were permitted by the forest service. We hiked on up the trail about 2 more miles and did find some elk near large meadow. The wind was wrong and we decided to go back to camp and be at the meadow at daylight the next morning. The next morning we hiked through their camp without disturbing anyone. We got to the elk meadow and I'll be danged if there was not another group of therapist camping in the edge of the meadow. No elk were heard that morning nor for the rest of our hunt.
If archery hunters are to be restricted, Why do other recreators not have any restrictions? Why do they not have to pay $670 a month to recreate? As to the ATVs mentioned back a few post. I have seen their tracts miles from any legal trail. I have seen beaver ponds that looked like a motor cross race had taken place in it. I reported to the FS, I told the CO that checked our license. He said ATVers brought in more money than hunters and the judge would only fine them a couple of hundred dollars. It wasn't worth his time.
I personally think it is all about $. I don't think they will reduce tags. I think that every one that applies will get a tag but have to buy a qualifing tag to apply. Think how many $ that will bring in.
Sorry for the long post.

No doubt that recreationalists are having an effect on elk. That being said, you hiked in on and camped on a trail, a popular trail at that. From your description, I’m gonna guess you were up Cascade Creek trail, which is a super popular, easily accessible, flat trail. The meadows along that trail are all full of established unofficial campsites with fire rings. An outfitter even sets up wall tents in one of those meadows during October. I don’t know why you would be surprised to see people camping in meadows off of a popular trail. They are the obvious place to camp. Also, with your bowhunting group would have pressured the elk if a group of campers hadn’t already pressured them. The elk still got pressured. What’s the difference? Pressure is pressure.

The problem with the sheer amount of bowhunting pressure is that it is happening off trail in addition to all of the on trail recreation. If pressure consisted of nothing but people being on trails, it wouldn’t have near the effect, but that’s not the case. It’s more of the cumulative effect. And as far as recreational users go, how would the NFS even manage that? The local rangers have tried for years to limit the number of people going to Chicago basin. They even proposed a permit system with a ranger posted at the train stop at a cost of $150,000 and there was no budget for it. In the end, they just asked the train to self regulate the number of people getting off at the Chicago Basin stop (which the train has implemented with no Chicago basin service southbound out of Silverton and limited number of groups daily out of Durango). They don’t have anywhere near the infrastructure or resources to implement a general permit system. By the time 2nd rifle rolls around, the amount of people out and about in the mountains has dropped to a tiny fraction of what it is in September. You may see a handful of day hikers on sunny trails during the warmer parts of the day, but that’s about it. I saw 0 recreationalists during 1st rifle and, coming out a extremely popular trail on a sunny Sunday afternoon during 3rd rifle, I saw 1 group of day hikers, 1 group of trail runners and 1 hunter (hopelessly) glassing from his truck at the trailhead.

I’m just having a hard time reading complaints like this when In fact you are just as much a part of the problem as anyone else and an OTC archery tag isn’t some kind of ticket to a magical fairy land where hikers don’t camp in meadows with 100 year old fire rings. If you wanted solitude, you could have parked your truck on the shoulder of 550 where there is a 40 degree slope of dark timber and no trail for a few miles in any direction and not seen a bike, a tent, or a fire ring, but you went up that trail for the same reason everyone else did and other Bowhunters went up that trail every single day of the season before you came and they went up it every single day of the season after you hiked out.

 

[Jqualls]

If archery hunters are to be restricted, Why do other recreators not have any restrictions? Why do they not have to pay $670 a month to recreate? As to the ATVs mentioned back a few post. I have seen their tracts miles from any legal trail. I have seen beaver ponds that looked like a motor cross race had taken place in it. I reported to the FS, I told the CO that checked our license. He said ATVers brought in more money than hunters and the judge would only fine them a couple of hundred dollars. It wasn't worth his time.
I personally think it is all about $. I don't think they will reduce tags. I think that every one that applies will get a tag but have to buy a qualifing tag to apply. Think how many $ that will bring in.
Sorry for the long post.

You do not have to pay anything to hike your bow around anywhere you want on public lands. That is the point of public lands anyone can use them. You are paying for the opportunity to consume a state resource on public land.

 

[sndmn11]

I think his point is that whether or not he or any other bow hunter was present, the "pressure" existed in the way of campers, hikers, etc. Yet, bow hunters are (presumably) being reduced in numbers while ignoring other causes.

 

[Poser]

I think his point is that whether or not he or any other bow hunter was present, the "pressure" existed in the way of campers, hikers, etc. Yet, bow hunters are (presumably) being reduced in numbers while ignoring other causes.

Again, though, besides climbers, and to some degree anglers, hunters are really the only user group venturing off piste outside of winter and likley the culprits of the most amount of off trail pressure on elk. The CPW can’t really limit the number of recreational users (who are largely sticking to trails) but they can limit the number of hunters, many of whom are venturing off trail and into deep elk habitat. Is the argument, “since people can hike, camp, ride horses and bike without a permit, I should be able to bowhunt OTC?”

 

[rbnhood]

I wish they would do a cap on the OTC units. The last couple years the northern units have been overrun

 

[sndmn11]

they can limit the number of hunters, many of whom are venturing off trail and into deep elk habitat. Is the argument, “since people can hike, camp, ride horses and bike without a permit, I should be able to bowhunt OTC?”

Why not be concerned about all elk habitat, shallow and deep, rather than just a portion of it? Hunters and anglers are footing the bill for conservation efforts, while sharing the pressure influenced, but the first group to be restricted is bow hunters. I'm not arguing WITH you, I am asking somewhat rhetorically.
I received an unrelated email today from one of the wildlife commissioners, and have asked what thought process was used to land on this decision. When I get a try, I will copy and paste to here.

 

[Poser]

Why not be concerned about all elk habitat, shallow and deep, rather than just a portion of it? Hunters and anglers are footing the bill for conservation efforts, while sharing the pressure influenced, but the first group to be restricted is bow hunters. I'm not arguing WITH you, I am asking somewhat rhetorically.
I received an unrelated email today from one of the wildlife commissioners, and have asked what thought process was used to land on this decision. When I get a try, I will copy and paste to here.

I agree with the idea, but what is the FS going to do, close public lands to everyone but hunters? CPW likely doesn’t have the authority to limit recreational users on FS lands, but they do have the authority to limit hunters. You can only control what you can control.

 

[sndmn11]

I agree with the idea, but what is the FS going to do, close public lands to everyone but hunters? CPW likely doesn’t have the authority to limit recreational users on FS lands, but they do have the authority to limit hunters. You can only control what you can control.

Agreed. My personal view is that hunters and anglers are struggling with the conflict of wanting to conserve, but seeing that those efforts of time and money are having a smaller effect year after year. Even as close as one generation ago, there likely were places in CO that a human didn't lay eyes on every year from the ground. Those same places might be trampled down now. I think there is a time quickly approaching that successful conservation efforts are only going to come from support and commitment from a mess of varied outdoor user types, or it's all going to poopoo away.

 

[Zeke6951]

Poser, no it was not the Cascade Creek Trail. Actually we camped about 200 yards off the trail on a hill overlooking the trail. In the week were were there, we saw 6 other bowhunters on the trail and none while hunting.
The trail the first Open Sky group was camped on does not show up on the FS maps or OnX. Where the Open Sky group camped had no fire ring nor any evidence that anyone else had ever camped there. The leader told me that they "were permitted", I assumed that meant they had a permit. A permit, much like an outfitter, that allowed them to take troubled youth into the San Juan NF for therapy and profit. Where the second Open Sky group was camped was 300 to 400 yards from even a game trail. I am not saying they should not be able to use the NF, but if they have a permit could it not have restrictions. The whole county of DeLores had a stage 3 fire ban, we were not even allowed a fire in a wood stove, yet they had a fire with not so much as a fire ring. I do wonder for therapy purposes what is the difference between 1/2 a mile in or 4 miles in.
Jquals, I wonder if the CO shares your opinion that I can " hike your bow around anywhere you want on public lands " without paying anything.

 

[Raidertx]

If a unit doesnt need to limit its rifle hunters then it most definitely does not need to limit the most challenging of hunting methods.

I'm an archery hunter that hunted one of these units OTC last year. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have absolutely all of the numbers for harvests and tags issued etc... and can't speak to the number of muzzle and rifle tags available to draw in these units. However, these units were only available OTC Antlered Only during 2nd and 3rd Rifle. OTC Archery were the only unlimited either sex tags available for these units.

I would love to be able to walk in and just buy a tag, but there has to be a herd to hunt. I don't disagree that predators and other factors also help determine herd numbers. The herd is generated by cows. If relinquishing unlimited available tags on cows helps contribute to the successful continuation of the herds, I can get on board with that.

Not saying CPW and the Commission have gotten this 100% right, but I don't think they're 100% wrong either. Just my 2cents

 

[COHunter33]

I wish they would do a cap on the OTC units. The last couple years the northern units have been overrun

I agree. I would also be in favor of increasing the cost of tags to make up for the loss in tag sales if caps were implemented. Hunters are going to have to bite the bullet at somepoint. It might as well be now.

 

[Jqualls]

Jquals, I wonder if the CO shares your opinion that I can " hike your bow around anywhere you want on public lands " without paying anything.

I do not believe there are any laws that prevent an individual from hiking with a bow in national forest in Colorado. You can also carry a rifle or pistol unconcealed or concealed if you have the correct permit on national forest. There may be some isolated restrictions in some specific areas but in general yes you can take your bow or gun for a hike all you want. I personally would not carry a bow or rifle during hunting season but I dont think there is any law prohibiting it. Lots of people go out stump shooting with a bow or just general shooting out in the national forest.

 

[Lowndes]

Some of these posts are starting to remind me of an encounter I had a few years back. My wife and I were in Colorado and took an afternoon hike on a trail in the NF. About a quarter of a mile in we ran into some hunters who we said hello to and then got laid into for having no business being on this trail at this time of year. Apparently it was a hard to draw elk unit and these guys were pissed anybody else was allowed in there. News flash: it is public land and anybody can be hiking around in there. A deer or elk tag allows you the opportunity to take an animal but not free use of a public resource to the exclusion of all others.

 

[GordonFreeman]

What is the anticipated timeline before all archery in CO goes to draw only? Just curious.

Back in 2018 I hunted two of the units changed to draw only this year. We saw plenty of old sign but zero Elk. 2019 CPW changed one of the units to bull only. Now it's draw only.

 

[tim tarras]

I wonder how many points these units are going to need to draw. Are they going to 0-1 point 54 and 55 where when they first went to draw or will they go higher? I have a feeling that they will start out higher the 1 point. I have no basis for this feeling but just a feeling.

 

[ckleeves]

I wonder how many points these units are going to need to draw. Are they going to 0-1 point 54 and 55 where when they first went to draw or will they go higher? I have a feeling that they will start out higher the 1 point. I have no basis for this feeling but just a feeling.

I doubt they are going to take any points but that’s just a guess. Since I don’t think anyone has seen any tag #’s yet it’s all a guess. But historically most of those units aren’t hard to draw muzzleloader or 1st rifle.


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