Montana season change proposal

[Jason Snyder]

The warning signs of what?

The unsustainability of OTC rifle rut hunting for mule deer.

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

This is 100% correct. I hate that western Montana is being lumped into the bullshit that goes on in Eastern Montana. The herd dynamics and hunting pressure are polar opposites of each other and should not be managed the same. There are already plenty of bucks dieing from old age in Region one, hunting them in October will make it damn near impossible in some parts.

Yes. 99% of the posts are about the Eastern 2/3s of the State. Here are some WESTERN MT mule deer proposals…

Pick your species- easily 90%+ of the hunters will select WT.

Mandatory Reporting- They’ll know +/-10,000 how many deer are actually getting killed.

$5 Resident AND nonresident YOUTH WT doe tags. You can buy 5, over the counter, not some stupid $5 app fee with a mailed refund that is less $ than what a stamp is going to cost in a few years.

$20 Resident and hell, maybe $40, nonresident adult WT doe tags. Again, max of 5, OTC.

Up the Mtn lion quota for 5 years. Yes, Cody Carr will call the Governor because this alone will obviously bankrupt his entire business.

F-ck it, do away with orange. I never wear it anyways because… again, nobody actually hunts mule deer in W MT.

Have Hunting District boundaries and unit numbers that are consistent. Right now, 8 of us can be standing on the same ridge and be in 8 different units depending on what tag we have in our pocket (deer, Mtn goat, sheep, bear, moose, lion, grouse, big foot).

Did I mention mandatory reporting?

Do not change anything with W MT season dates.

Wait 5 years, look at your mandatory reporting data and actually survey. Adjust something after actual having some idea of what is going on in W MT.

Have 1 application period and 1 draw instead of 17 like we have currently.

Pass a bill that will prevent all of our f-cking politicians from passing bills about game management.

And last… mandatory reporting.

 

[ELKdeerMT]

This forum basically burned that Avery guy at the stake. Right wrong or indifferent on what he did, there was no lack of engagement in throwing stones. I like the moderators trying to “tone it down” on this one. We’re talking about saving a fuggin species. Hard to deal with incompetence kindly when they’re spewing BS.

What is the actual issue with the deer herd in eastern Montana?

Really?

 

[rogerthat]

Yes. 99% of the posts are about the Eastern 2/3s of the State. Here are some WESTERN MT mule deer proposals…

Pick your species- easily 90%+ of the hunters will select WT.

Mandatory Reporting- They’ll know +/-10,000 how many deer are actually getting killed.

$5 Resident AND nonresident YOUTH WT doe tags. You can buy 5, over the counter, not some stupid $5 app fee with a mailed refund that is less $ than what a stamp is going to cost in a few years.

$20 Resident and hell, maybe $40, nonresident adult WT doe tags. Again, max of 5, OTC.

Up the Mtn lion quota for 5 years. Yes, Cody Carr will call the Governor because this alone will obviously bankrupt his entire business.

F-ck it, do away with orange. I never wear it anyways because… again, nobody actually hunts mule deer in W MT.

Have Hunting District boundaries and unit numbers that are consistent. Right now, 8 of us can be standing on the same ridge and be in 8 different units depending on what tag we have in our pocket (deer, Mtn goat, sheep, bear, moose, lion, grouse, big foot).

Did I mention mandatory reporting?

Do not change anything with W MT season dates.

Wait 5 years, look at your mandatory reporting data and actually survey. Adjust something after actual having some idea of what is going on in W MT.

Have 1 application period and 1 draw instead of 17 like we have currently.

Pass a bill that will prevent all of our f-cking politicians from passing bills about game management.

And last… mandatory reporting.

Nw or Sw? Vastly different

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

Nw or Sw? Vastly different

NW

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

Nw or Sw? Vastly different

And yes, vastly different. That’s why statewide, broad brush approaches are not good. We currently have a broad brush approach, this current proposal as is… is a statewide broad brush approach.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form is 6 bucks to 100 does a healthy herd? Is no bucks over the age of 3.5 years in a unit a healthy herd?

Can be. There is no set buck to doe ratio that is “correct”. All of that comes from eastern and mid western whitetail “farmers” under the guise of “healthy and proper herd management”. Even the saying “herd management” is treating them like cattle.


But what unit exactly has not a single buck over 3.5 years old?

Just a smattering of some of the issues some Montana units face

It’s only an issue if you believe that they only right way to hunt deer is to worry about trophy size. If total deer hunters are low, don’t shoot does.

 

[Formidilosus]

Is it wrong or a sin to want more deer and older bucks?

No. But it isn’t wrong or a sin to not care at all about older bucks either. One view is not more “righteous” than the other.

Everyone acts like we can't have both, but they go hand in hand.

Yes- you can have some increase in older bucks by severely limiting the amount of tags given out in an area- but the rub is that you don’t need to have older age bucks to have a lot of deer.

It really is simple. Quit shooting does ( grow population )

Yes. Ok

Quit shooting immature bucks ( allow more to reach maturity )

But only if you care about shooting mature deer. If someone doesn’t, then this has no value to them and isn’t a “problem”.

Some on here act like wanting more mature deer is a selfish act.

It is. You want to limit others hunting because you would rather have more “mature” deer to find easier- they’re already out here. I have not killed many Mule deer even though I average 3 weeks a year hunting them, and yet I have never shot a young buck.
But that’s my choice to do so. I am not about trying to force others into shooting the type of bucks I think they should- they get a tag, they can hang it on what they want.

demanding being allowed to kill anything and everything at your pleasure just as selfish?

No, because no one is doing that. People are using a bad faith argument for why young bucks shouldn’t be killed. The number of deer is based on females and fawn recruitment- not how many 4.5 year old bucks there are.

Not one person is trying to tell you, (or me) that we can’t hunt for, and choose to only shoot certain bucks- but that’s exactly what people want to tell the people that just want to have fun and shoot a forky.

Which view point ends in more dead deer?

It isn’t about which ends in more dead deer. It’s about why should “you” get to have a say in what someone else chooses to shoot if the population can handle it- and since this is about bucks- it can.

I'm willing to make sacrifices for a passion and resource I love.
Are any of the " it's my God given right to kill what I want " crowd willing to join me?

No, because you aren’t being honest. Someone being happy with hunting and shooting a silly rutted up mule deer buck over thanksgiving doesn’t care about what age class of deer you want to see- he isn’t trying to limit you from finding that, nor is it his responsibility to “sacrifice” so you can find one easier. You have all the availability in the world to go and look for what you want to. If you can’t find it, here are units in MT, as well as every single other state that cater to “I want big bucks” people. What people want is for you/others to stop trying to turn everything into a trophy hunt/trophy management thing.

 

[Formidilosus]

Really?

Yes.

 

[ELKdeerMT]

No. But it isn’t wrong or a sin to not care at all about older bucks too. One is not more “righteous” than the other.




Yes- you can have some increase in older bucks by severely limiting the amount of tags given out in an area- and there’s the rub, you don’t need to have older age bucks to have a lot of deer.



Yes. Ok



But only if you care about shooting nature deer. If someone doesn’t, then this has no value to them and isn’t a “problem”.





It is. You want to limit others hunting because you would rather have more “mature” deer to find easier- they’re already out here. I have not killed many Mule deer even though average 3 weeks a year hunting them, and yet I have never shot a young buck. But that’s my choice to do so. I am not about trying to force others into shooting he type of bucks I think they should- they get a tag, why can hang it on what they want





No, because no one is doing that. People are using a bad faith argument for why small deer shouldn’t be killed- it’s bad faith. The number of deer is based on females and fawn recruitment- not how many 4.5 year old bucks there are.

Not one person is trying to tell you, (or me) that we cat hunt for and choose to only shoot certain bucks- but that’s exactly what people want to tell the people that just want to have fun and shoot a forky.





It isn’t about which ends in more dead deer. It’s about why should “you” get to have a say in what someone else chooses to shoot if the population can handle it- and since this is about bucks- it can.





No, because you aren’t being honest. Someone being happy with hunting and shooting a silly rutted up mule deer buck over thanksgiving doesn’t care about what age class of deer you want to see- he isn’t trying to limit you from finding that, nor is it his responsibility to “sacrifice” so you can find one easier. You have all the availability in the world to go and look for what you want to. If you can’t find it, here are units and every single other state that cater to “I want big bucks” people. What people want is for you/others to stop trying to turn everything into a trophy hunt/trophy management thing.

You don’t think you could find a small deer in the allotted time of the proposal excluding rut hunting?

Give me 4 hours in any other state to fill a tag on a forky in any western state but Montana. I could spend one day in Colorado, Wyoming, which I consider opportunity states and I’d have no problem “putting meat in the freezer” in October. You’d be hard pressed to find one in Montana with the current state of affairs. The proposal adressss opportunity. It’s not a trophy hunters proposal. It’s a bare minimum attempt at saving MD. It’s not false data. It’s guys that have spent decades in the field and hunt many different states. Some grad that has 4 years of education and gets paid 60k a year if their lucky (bless them) and becomes a wildlife biologist is not all of a sudden the most qualified person on these topics.

 

[Formidilosus]

The unsustainability of OTC rifle rut hunting for mule deer.

That doesn’t make sense. You can’t say “the unsuitability of OTC rifle rut hunting for mule deer”, and then when asked warning signs say “warning signs”.

If someone doesn’t care about “trophy” bucks- there is no issue with shooting bucks during the rut. None.

 

[Jason Snyder]

That doesn’t make sense. You can’t say “the unsuitability of OTC rifle rut hunting for mule deer”, and then when asked warning signs say “warning signs”.

If someone doesn’t care about “trophy” bucks- there is no issue with shooting bucks during the rut. None.

Huh? Your first paragraph makes no sense.

Granted it’s FWPs data, but a little perusing of historical numbers for HD 704 shows the number of bucks harvested decreasing and total hunter days increasing. That isn’t solely related to hunting bucks in the rut, but it certainly has played a role in the overall buck numbers and distribution.

 

[Formidilosus]

You don’t think you could find a small deer in the allotted time of the proposal excluding rut hunting?

Give me 4 hours in any other state to fill a tag on a forky in any western state but Montana. I could spend one day in Colorado, Wyoming, which I consider opportunity states I’d and I’d have no problem “putting meat in the freezer” in October. You’d be hard pressed to find one in Montana with the current state of affairs.

So what does it do exactly if it won’t reduce the amount of bucks taken, not there age because small deer are say to find?

And how does what anyone could find have anything to do with the discussion?

I don’t shoot young MD. I’ve shot one dink through mistaken identity. It still has nothin to do with this.

The proposal adressss opportunity. It’s not a trophy hunters proposal. It’s a bare minimum attempt at saving MD.

Do you actually understand that buck to doe ratio has nothing to do with how many deer there are? There can be an extremely low buck to die ratio and you can have a massive popular animals. Not shooting small bucks isn’t “saving” a species.

It’s not false data. It’s guys that have spent decades in the field and hunt many different states.

What data? There is no data. MT has no idea how many deer are killed or what kind. None. Stop saying “data” because it doesn’t exist.

 

[Formidilosus]

This was your post that I quoted-

My prediction is 10 years from now folks will be wishing they’d seen the warning signs.

Then I asked- “missed the warning signs of what?”


To which to replied-

The unsustainability of OTC rifle rut hunting for mule deer.

To which I said doesn’t make sense. What is unsuitable about rut hunting mule deer? Shooting all the forkys that people want does not change the mule deer numbers- they’re males, not females. Killing females is what changes the herd numbers. In a functional sense nearly all the males are surplus/ the females will get bred if there are any bucks at all.

 

[RutandDie]

So what does it do exactly if it won’t reduce the amount of bucks taken, not there age because small deer are say to find?

And how does what anyone could find have anything to do with the discussion?

I don’t shoot young MD. I’ve shot one dink through mistaken identity. It still has nothin to do with this.





Do you actually understand that buck to doe ratio has nothing to do with how many deer there are? There can be an extremely low buck to die ratio and you can have a massive popular animals. Not shooting small bucks isn’t “saving” a species.





What data? There is no data. MT has no idea how many deer are killed or what kind. None. Stop saying “data” because it doesn’t exist.

Why is no other state hunting the whole mule deer rut with a general tag? I would think the biologists would advocate for this if what you are presenting is true.

 

[mtwarden]

It appears there is at least one thing that almost everyone agrees with; if mule deer population numbers are down (which I’ll go out on a limb and say that covers a lot of the state) we quit harvesting (or greatly reduce harvest of ) does.

It’s a starting point

 

[ELKdeerMT]

So what does it do exactly if it won’t reduce the amount of bucks taken, not there age because small deer are say to find?

And how does what anyone could find have anything to do with the discussion?

I don’t shoot young MD. I’ve shot one dink through mistaken identity. It still has nothin to do with this.





Do you actually understand that buck to doe ratio has nothing to do with how many deer there are? There can be an extremely low buck to die ratio and you can have a massive popular animals. Not shooting small bucks isn’t “saving” a species.





What data? There is no data. MT has no idea how many deer are killed or what kind. None. Stop saying “data” because it doesn’t exist.

I’ll be happy to supply the data. MT doesn’t have mandatory harvest reports but they have plenty of check station data and winter suvey data suggesting that MD are in dyer straights. Why do you think they FINALLY took steps to eliminate doe tags in R6 and R7. Why do you think they started a MD advisory board. You think that’s buck to doe ratios don’t matter? Why do they track it from winter range surveys and adjust quotas for the few units they have that are special draw.

Tell me what you think the answer is? Accept mediocrity? I get you can sustain a a heard by managing does more than bucks but doesn’t mean we should stop at that. And congrats on “not shooting small bucks” I guess.

 

[Formidilosus]

Why is no other state hunting the whole mule deer rut with a general tag? I would think the biologists would advocate for this if what you are presenting is true.

Because they are “managed” for different reasons- primarily “quality” which is trophy.

All sheep units in the country- 100% of them in every single state could go to an OTC Unlimited style hunt and not wipe out the sheep. If all you shoot is legal rams, you’re not wiping out the animals. However, if you want to have an easy hunt- and most sheep hunts are near guaranteed, then yes you severely limit the amount of hunters and rams taken. But that doesn’t mean that a MT unlimited style is “bad”. It’s just “managing” for different objectives and desires.

 

[Formidilosus]

Tell me what you think the answer is? Accept mediocrity?

It’s only mediocre if you think that is judged by “big bucks”. It’s not mediocre if “any” buck makes you happy.

I get you can sustain a a heard by managing does more than bucks but doesn’t mean we should stop at that. And congrats on “not shooting small bucks” I guess.

Just say that what you really want is more bi deer and stop hiding behind “herd health” and other nonsense. Yes/ the number of MD is lower than it should be- the only thing that will have a measurable effect on that is stop killing females. Shooting males doesn’t move the needle. Once you had enough deer, then it becomes a talk of war is “right”- “mature deer management”, or “fun rut hunting”- neither of which has anything functional with the amount of deer in total- they are separate issues.

 

[willfrye027]

I thought it wasn’t about big bucks though?




I saw well over 20 separate bucks in 3 days in a few square mile area this past year. I average 3-5 separate bucks a day throughout the season on public- that’s in multiple different units. And, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread- lots of bucks are getting killed during November. So if there are lots of bucks still getting killed, how exactly are there not enough bucks

20 bucks? That’s it? Do you even glass bro?