Montana season change proposal

[Formidilosus]

Unlimited sheep units only work in the right terrain, habitat, and densities. That’s not a good comparison. Can you imagine an unlimited sheep hunt in the Missouri breaks? LMAO

Yes I can imagine that. Rams would get killed their first legal year. The ewes would not. The species/herd would be fine.

 

[rogerthat]

No. 40/100 buck to doe ratio generally only happens by specific human intervention. I have hunted MT heavily for deer for longer than ten years, and while overall there are less total deer, proportionally it hasn’t changed much in most areas. There are certainly regions and units that need serious work on deer hunters, I.E., close all hunting for a period of time, but rut hunting bucks isn’t the cause.

Specific human intervention? Such as September/october seasons in the Wyoming range? You need to listen to some of Robbie’s podcasts bud. I have learned a lot from you on bullets and shooting but it’s clear to me you don’t have a handle on the current state of Montana mule deer, this proposal, and the specific reasons for the elements in the proposal, nor any of the members on the committee. Have a good one!

Signed a dude that has spent his life hunting and living in Montana.

 

[jmez]

40/100 buck to doe ratios would definitely necessitate action. The "management" experts would tell you to start killing bucks immediately. Lots of them.

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[rogerthat]

40/100 buck to doe ratios would definitely necessitate action. The "management" experts would tell you to start killing bucks immediately. Lots of them.

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How about 6? That’s where most of region 6 is at currently

 

[Formidilosus]

How about 6? That’s where most of region 6 is at currently

No- I thought there was this magic place less than a decade ago that had nearly one buck for two does?

As for 6/100, that’s probably closer to “natural” than 30/100.

 

[rogerthat]

40/100 buck to doe ratios would definitely necessitate action. The "management" experts would tell you to start killing bucks immediately. Lots of them.

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Lots of herds in the west consistently hit their high cycle in this range.

 

[Formidilosus]

Specific human intervention? Such as September/october seasons in the Wyoming range?

No. As in artificially killing does to reduce the female population. There is no wild herd where left to their own devices that has nearly one buck for every two does.

You need to listen to some of Robbie’s podcasts bud. I have learned a lot from you on bullets and shooting but it’s clear to me you don’t have a handle on the current state of Montana mule deer, this proposal, and the specific reasons for the elements in the proposal, nor any of the members on the committee. Have a good one!

Signed a dude that has spent his life hunting and living in Montana.

Neat. I have and do.


Posted by @realunlucky in another deer thread-

 

[RutandDie]

No. As in artificially killing does to reduce the female population. There is no wild herd where left to their own devices that has nearly one buck for every two does.




Neat. I have and do.


Posted by @realunlucky in another deer thread-

View attachment 707366

Does Utah have a general rut hunt that I don’t know about?

 

[rogerthat]

No- I thought there was this magic place less than a decade ago that had nearly one buck for each doe?

As for 6/100, that’s probably closer to “natural” than 30/100.

Natural meaning uncontrolled gen season rut hunting? I can agree with that. You guys crack me up. There is a reason this is the only uncontrolled state wide gen season during the rut in all the west. Let’s talk about why you guys like it and think it’s a model for all species across the west. Are you guys shooters or hunters? You can shoot coyotes and prairie dogs year round guys.

 

[rogerthat]

No. As in artificially killing does to reduce the female population. There is no wild herd where left to their own devices that has nearly one buck for every two does.




Neat. I have and do.


Posted by @realunlucky in another deer thread-

View attachment 707366

Any reason those bucks can’t be taken in October?

 

[Formidilosus]

Any reason those bucks can’t be taken in October?

Why aren’t you able to finish one conversation point, before deflecting and moving to something else? There isn’t a 30-40/100 buck to doe without deliberate, and concerned efforts to make it so- it isn’t “natural”.

But, as to moving season- What happens when nothing changes in total deer numbers by moving the season to October? Then what? Will you come back and state that you were completely wrong and to open the November hunt back up? Or, will you do what everyone does and push for more restrictions- point restrictions, reduced season length, draw?

 

[rogerthat]

Why aren’t you able to finish one conversation point, before deflecting and moving to something else? There isn’t a 30-40/100 buck to doe without deliberate, and concerned efforts to make it so- it isn’t “natural”.

But, as to moving season- What happens when nothing changes in total deer numbers by moving the season to October? Then what? Will you come back and state that you were completely wrong and to open the November hunt back up? Or, will you do what everyone does and push for more restrictions- point restrictions, reduced season length, draw?

Because my wife is getting pissed at me for arguing with someone in the internet instead of being present this morning. It really depends what you mean by natural. An unhunted population absolutely can have buck to doe ratios that high. In fact Colorado has many populations with buck to doe ratios that exceed that or they did back when I studied them.

The proposal is not going to increase deer numbers. That’s doe harvest that is the lever for that. I never said that

 

[Formidilosus]

Natural meaning uncontrolled gen season rut hunting? I can agree with that. You guys crack me up. There is a reason this is the only uncontrolled state wide gen season during the rut in all the west.

Thats a fallacy- it doesn’t matter why other states don’t do it. The fact is that for lots, maybe most of Montana, rifle hunting November is not the reason that deer numbers are down. Full stop, that’s it. I haven’t said one time what I “want”, I have and am telling you that y’all’s story is ignornat at best, if not completely disingenuous.
If it’s deer numbers that you care about- you stop killing does, crush predators during fawning, and make massive habitat improvements, and keep food available during winter. The amount of bucks shot during hunting season nor when they are shot moves the needles.

Let’s talk about why you guys like it and think it’s a model for all species across the west. Are you guys shooters or hunters? You can shoot coyotes and prairie dogs year round guys.

Oh- so now it’s not that shooting MD bucks during November will genicide the deer herd (you know- the one that has survived that huntings season for decades), but instead is about being a “true hunter” and not a “shooter”.

 

[Formidilosus]

The proposal is not going to increase deer numbers. That’s doe harvest that is the lever for that. I never said that

So for you it is simply more big bucks?

 

[rogerthat]

Thats a fallacy- it doesn’t matter why other states don’t do it. The fact is that for lots, maybe most of Montana, rifle hunting November is not the reason that deer numbers are down. Full stop, that’s it. I haven’t said one time what I “want”, I have and am telling you that y’all’s story is ignornat at best, if not completely disingenuous.
If it’s deer numbers that you care about- you stop killing does, crush predators during fawning, and make massive habitat improvements, and keep food available during winter. The amount of bucks shot during hunting season nor when they are shot moves the needles.





Oh- so now it’s not that shooting MD bucks during November will genicide the deer herd (you know- the one that has survived that huntings season for decades), but instead is about being a “true hunter” and not a “shooter”.

Your mixing others arguments into mine. The proposal will reduce crowding, spread out pressure, decouple elk and deer to reduce incidental mule deer buck take, and lengthen the normal curve on buck age class and bump buck to doe ratios while maintaining opportunity . That’s it. You guys came up with the trophy hunting and increase herds crap. We are headed for LE. Ie region 4 just did that in units. This proposal tries to avoid that.

 

[Formidilosus]

Your mixing others arguments into mine.

Ok. That happened because for the vast majority (I’d bet it’s better than 95%) that’s what it is about. I quoted 18 comments earlier from this thread that clearly show that for most it is about “big/mature” bucks, as those same people, or most of them then claimed that is is about herd numbers and health.

The proposal will reduce crowding, spread out pressure, decouple elk and deer to reduce incidental mule deer buck take, and lengthen the normal curve on buck age class and bump buck to doe ratios while maintaining opportunity . That’s it.

Ok, well from that point the reason most/lots aren’t interested in this proposal is because they are having fun hunting the way it is, and the way they are. They don’t care about your “age class”, they are happy with incidental kills of deer, and moving the season dates won’t change hunting pressure in most areas noticeably.

You know what will help overcrowding and pressure? Stop supporting and watching every freaking person that is prostituting hunting for views on YouTube. Stop trying to “recruit” new hunters inorganically to an already tapped out resource.

You guys came up with the trophy hunting and increase herds crap. We are headed for LE. Ie region 4 just did that in units. This proposal tries to avoid that.

How is “spreading out the age class” not trophy “management”? And LE is caused by lack of total deer herd numbers, and the quest to make deer have a “better age class”.

 

[RutandDie]

You know what will help overcrowding and pressure? Stop supporting and watching every freaking person that is prostituting hunting for views on YouTube. Stop trying to “recruit” new hunters inorganically to an already tapped out resource.

Don’t shoot does and now this. I guess we have found our common ground.

I hope this proposal gains some steam. Best of luck to you @Formidilosus

 

[jmez]

Lots of herds in the west consistently hit their high cycle in this range.

Then they need to quit shooting their mothers.

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[mtwarden]

Moving from the “hunt during rut discussion; declare your region for mule deer.

The more I think about this proposal, the more I don’t like it. I like to roam during hunting season and I don’t see this as a critical component of bringing back mule deer numbers.

It’s been mentioned several times, but liberalize the whitetail hunting, not by a little, but by a lot.

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

Moving from the “hunt during rut discussion; declare your region for mule deer.

The more I think about this proposal, the more I don’t like it. I like to roam during hunting season and I don’t see this as a critical component of bringing back mule deer numbers.

It’s been mentioned several times, but liberalize the whitetail hunting, not by a little, but by a lot.

If you read my earlier post, I obviously 100% agree on huge increases in WT doe tags. Managing the Mtn lion quota is the easiest thing that they could implement. They will kill the exact number of the quota annually, period.

If we are forced to pick a region, I would obviously pick my neck of the woods. But I agree with you… we can argue about everything from science, to guesstimate “data”, to “the way it’s always been”, to whatever ever else we want to argue about. BUT, this is fact. Making such a large scale change, this quickly, would be a very, very hard thing to pass in MT. Not saying I agree or disagree. But there are 2 things that Montanans hate… the way things are, and change.