Montana season change proposal

[Randy11]

@Geewhiz and @jmez

Y’all’s last two posts have it exactly.

I have not stated whether I am a “big buck hunter”, or a “forky smokie”- however being that I have killed one MD in 10 years despite hunting nearly a month for them, and I see 160” bucks most years. Maybe I’m a bad hunter.

The only person I've seen assigning tags to anyone else is you. You've repeatedly claimed our motives are strictly trophy potential. Nothing I say will make you think otherwise, so I'm done explaining myself.

@Geewhiz stop tagging me in your posts. I'm done with this, and I will not put up resistance here on out for the rut hunt. You win.

 

[WCB]

I love hunting the rut and big mule deer...If I can do both at the same time great but.... Why not a combo of season.

General Season (You must pick your individual region). Season ends OCT 31.

Limited Season (low number of tags say 1,000 NR/Resident name the number but of course residents that care about NRs still want to hunt all season and kill all the deer anyways) Limited Season Dates Nov. 16th-30th. You must apply for this tag only and are not eligible for the general tag. You have one set of Deer points...no just hunting General while trying to hunt the Limited season.

Could this lead to less mature bucks being killed during the rut along with young dumb ones growing the trophy potential so when a guy does draw a rut tag trophy potential is better. By saving those deer during that time there would also be more mature deer during the Oct. season. While yes harder to kill there would potentially still be more.

Might be fairly easy to test in a section of a region. Make an area only good for General the 1st 2 weeks of the season. Then do a limited drawing in that small section for the last two weeks of NOV and see what happens.

 

[t_carlson]

I don't think that the solution to MT's trophy deer quality is as simple as cutting back on bucks killed during the rut by hunters.

I don't know what the solution is, but if you look at a unit like the Bridger Mountains outside of Bozeman, it is a perfect illustration. Its been on a draw for what? 30+ years now? And trophy quality has never been worse in the Bridgers than it is today.

Until someone can explain the "Bridger Phenomenon" to me, I'll oppose this. It is too simplistic of an approach.

 

[t_carlson]

These are good points.

If you have a specific concern on number 1, I'd love to hear it. PM or email is fine. That's definitely not the goal of the group and I want to be very cautious from that angle.

1) MT FWP proposes something allegedly benefiting the general public

2) After implementation, special interests use their influence to carve out exceptions for themselves

3) General public gets the short end of the stick


This seems to be a repeating cycle. The language in the proposal that delineates private/public management strategies is what makes alarm bells go off for me.

 

[Randy11]

1) MT FWP proposes something allegedly benefiting the general public

2) After implementation, special interests use their influence to carve out exceptions for themselves

3) General public gets the short end of the stick


This seems to be a repeating cycle. The language in the proposal that delineates private/public management strategies is what makes alarm bells go off for me.

To clarify, this proposal did not come from FWP.

 

[t_carlson]

To clarify, this proposal did not come from FWP.

I understand. I should have said "implements" instead of "proposes"

And I do appreciate and commend your willingness to step up and try to make a change.

The problem I see is that this is like trying to catch a falling knife. Mule deer populations have been in decline for decades and there is a lot more to it than just reducing hunting. Habitat. Elk. Lions. Wolves. Unless they are all addressed at once, I don't know if it will do anything aside from reduce opportunity, and I'm not in favor of opportunity reduction with no actual benefit.

Again, if you can explain the "Bridger Phenomenon" to me, then I'd certainly reconsider, but I really think it blows holes in the argument that "all we have to do is reduce hunting pressure and there will be big bucks in Montana."

There is a much larger force at work here.

 

[Fire_9]

I don't think that the solution to MT's trophy deer quality is as simple as cutting back on bucks killed during the rut by hunters.

I don't know what the solution is, but if you look at a unit like the Bridger Mountains outside of Bozeman, it is a perfect illustration. Its been on a draw for what? 30+ years now? And trophy quality has never been worse in the Bridgers than it is today.

Until someone can explain the "Bridger Phenomenon" to me, I'll oppose this. It is too simplistic of an approach.

This is a very interesting point. I haven't witnessed it personally but the talk of the decline of the LE units on the western side of the state would be another thing to consider.

 

[Greenhorn]

I don't think that the solution to MT's trophy deer quality is as simple as cutting back on bucks killed during the rut by hunters.

I don't know what the solution is, but if you look at a unit like the Bridger Mountains outside of Bozeman, it is a perfect illustration. Its been on a draw for what? 30+ years now? And trophy quality has never been worse in the Bridgers than it is today.

Until someone can explain the "Bridger Phenomenon" to me, I'll oppose this. It is too simplistic of an approach.

Bridgers is a perfect example of a place being completely beat down by MT hunting management. Tiny mountain range with easy to find and hunt deer. A decade before the permit was established, the quality was better and the hunting pressure lower than now. There are probably more elk hunters killing average sized mule deer bucks without permits than there were bucks killed in total in 70s and early 80s. Any bucks that live beyond a ripe old age of 3 have found safety living full time in a luxurious neighborhood where local morons are required to be more aggressive in their poaching tendencies.

 

[Greenhorn]

So my question is, why are you guys so adamant to vote yourselves out of the opportunity for success even if you do have to exert a bit more energy than you would in other states (that take years and years to draw)? There are big bulls and big bucks killed in Montana every year in general units with over the counter tags by people who know how to hunt and hunt hard.

I'm voting myself into more opportunity.

Trying to get out of "exerting a bit more energy" is an odd thing to suggest that folks are trying for who want to see an end to general, statewide hunting the entire month of November for mule deer..

Have seen hunting in MT spiral down the toilet bowl slowly but surely for 40+ years and it's so weird to see how low the bar is hunter satisfaction is in MT and how unwilling so many are to give up a little something to see an improvement.

 

[Jeremyc_1999]

I do have to comment again after thinking about this for a few more days. I stated that I thought getting rid of the NR combo tags would help the deer population, but I realize that since we don't have a good way of reporting I have no real idea if this would work.

 

[Geewhiz]

I'm voting myself into more opportunity.

Explain?

 

[dirtytough]

6 bucks per 100 does in R6. Definitely sounds like the herd can handle more rut hunting.

 

[idelkslayer]

If I were a Montana resident I would resist the requirement to pick a region more than any other part of the proposal. The ability to try new places and explore is a big part of hunting for me. As a NR I only have time for maybe one long trip anyway and I'll only have time to hunt one area so it wouldn't matter to me as a NR if I had to choose a region.

No to choose a species of deer. With an either species tag I can hunt Mule deer and I am willing to pass up a lot of small muley bucks because I know I can kill a whitetail later. And I am very willing to kill a small whitetail buck or even a doe. If I have to chose between species, I will most likely choose mule deer, and early in the hunt I might pass on a few small bucks but as my season winds down, I will shoot a small buck. Having the ability to switch to whitetails means that I won't shoot a small mule deer buck. I don't think I'm the only hunter who thinks that way so if you want more mule deer bucks to survive hunting season it makes sense to allow either species tags to continue.

Yes, on mandatory reporting. It seems like that is the only proposal that needs immediate implementation. The results of that data would reveal if the other proposals are needed.

 

[brockel]

6 bucks per 100 does in R6. Definitely sounds like the herd can handle more rut hunting.

Looks like opportunity to me

 

[Greenhorn]

6 bucks per 100 does in R6. Definitely sounds like the herd can handle more rut hunting.

Are you a rocket scientist?


Did you not know that...

There are big bulls and big bucks killed in Montana every year in general units with over the counter tags by people who know how to hunt and hunt hard.

 

[brockel]

Are you a rocket scientist?


Did you not know that...

Lace them up tighter

 

[t_carlson]

Bridgers is a perfect example of a place being completely beat down by MT hunting management. Tiny mountain range with easy to find and hunt deer. A decade before the permit was established, the quality was better and the hunting pressure lower than now. There are probably more elk hunters killing average sized mule deer bucks without permits than there were bucks killed in total in 70s and early 80s. Any bucks that live beyond a ripe old age of 3 have found safety living full time in a luxurious neighborhood where local morons are required to be more aggressive in their poaching tendencies.

Your statements about poaching are speculation, anecdotal, or evidence based? I don't doubt elk hunters kill some bucks illegally, but you're throwing around "numbers" that I don't think there is data for. And its not like the ones down in the safety of the subdivisions are sporting antlers like the deer were back in the good 'ol days. Something else is the problem.

I understand the premise of the proposal. But if anything, your post highlights all of the other difficulties in deer management and the FWP's lack of ability in execution. If the FWP cannot properly manage a "tiny mountain range" why should I be willing to give up opportunities everywhere else?

Also, the Bridgers are right outside of Bozeman. You're telling me they can't police it enough to allow the bucks enough breathing room to produce a FEW good heads a year? I have a hard time believing hunting pressure is the only thing holding MT deer back. Poaching is not unique to Montana.

And I'm not sure I agree with you that the Bridgers have "easy to find and hunt deer." Some places, yes. But there is a lot of public ground that is difficult to reach due to a lack of access through private land. Certainly there is enough to kick out a few good deer a year.

Other western states have shown us that once something like a general tag rut hunt goes away, it never comes back, even if the proposed "fixes" are really "flops."

I see this likely playing out as follows:

1) General tags no longer valid after October 31.

2) Deer quality goes up a slightly.

3) Idiot poachers and intentional poachers continue doing what they do best.

4) Lions, wolves, elk continue doing what they do best.

5) Habitat problems continue to exist.

6) No increase in overall size of deer legally harvested because October is the most difficult month out of the entire fall to kill a 4.5 year old + buck. Yes, there may be a few more of them around, but hunters won't actually kill any more because the additional opportunities provided by more mature bucks are offset by the fact that it is an October season.

7) FWP gives out perks to private landowners/special interests.

8) Hunting still sucks.

9) People start thinking that MORE restrictions are warranted since these ones didn't produce the desired results.

 

[dirtytough]

Looks like opportunity to me

Yep can't give up that there opportunity to whack one of the few bucks left from the road during the rut.

Are you a rocket scientist?


Did you not know that...

Definitely not. But I did stay at a holiday inn last week.

I listened to a podcast recently that mentioned single digit B/D ratios had the highest F/D ratios during those years. So maybe FWP is ahead of the game and trying to bring up their F/D ratios?

 

[Greenhorn]

Your statements about poaching are speculation, anecdotal, or evidence based? I don't doubt elk hunters kill some bucks illegally, but you're throwing around "numbers" that I don't think there is data for. And its not like the ones down in the safety of the subdivisions are sporting antlers like the deer were back in the good 'ol days. Something else is the problem.

I understand the premise of the proposal. But if anything, your post highlights all of the other difficulties in deer management and the FWP's lack of ability in execution. If the FWP cannot properly manage a "tiny mountain range" why should I be willing to give up opportunities everywhere else?

Also, the Bridgers are right outside of Bozeman. You're telling me they can't police it enough to allow the bucks enough breathing room to produce a FEW good heads a year? I have a hard time believing hunting pressure is the only thing holding MT deer back. Poaching is not unique to Montana.

And I'm not sure I agree with you that the Bridgers have "easy to find and hunt deer." Some places, yes. But there is a lot of public ground that is difficult to reach due to a lack of access through private land. Certainly there is enough to kick out a few good deer a year.

Other western states have shown us that once something like a general tag rut hunt goes away, it never comes back, even if the proposed "fixes" are really "flops."

I see this likely playing out as follows:

1) General tags no longer valid after October 31.

2) Deer quality goes up a slightly.

3) Idiot poachers and intentional poachers continue doing what they do best.

4) Lions, wolves, elk continue doing what they do best.

5) Habitat problems continue to exist.

6) No increase in overall size of deer legally harvested because October is the most difficult month out of the entire fall to kill a 4.5 year old + buck. Yes, there may be a few more of them around, but hunters won't actually kill any more because the additional opportunities provided by more mature bucks are offset by the fact that it is an October season.

7) FWP gives out perks to private landowners/special interests.

8) Hunting still sucks.

9) People start thinking that MORE restrictions are warranted since these ones didn't produce the desired results.

Live in Bozeman. Hunted in Bridgers in the 80s and 90s and have numerous friends that have drawn recently and including this year. Used to regularly drive walker and baseline and glass after the season and look at the deer after heavy snowstorms. Somewhat familiar with what was and is, there. It's chump change to hunt mule deer in, compared to south of town or NW MT, and easy to find deer hotspots compared to even the Custer of eastern MT. I guess if you're looking for "numbers" go get the highly organized and valuable data maintained by FWP (sarcasm). When you bump into two guys packing two small deer out that won't speak to you on Truman, I guess my speculation on how often deer are plucked are anecdotal. I'd rather hunt a general area (where I do) and not see a single buck in the entire season (it's happened) than have a Bridgers "trophy" deer permit. There's a ton of hunter pressure there and I would never hunt there or apply for a permit there. It is NOT rocket science what's happened there.

 

[Axlrod]

The Tobacco Root mountain range was closed for 20 years or so during the rut. And it was a 4 point or better area. It had zero effect on MD numbers. So the FWP scrapped that plan.

My family ran a wild game processing/sausage making shop in SW MT starting in the mid 80's until my father passed away 6 years ago. Our ave. number of animals was 1800/ year. The ratio of elk to deer was completely weather driven for rifle season. If there was snow and below zero temps, the ratio would be 70% elk /30% deer. If there was not much winter weather, it was 70% deer /30% elk.
The hunters were going to bring some meat in one way or another. And in good weather years they brought in pickup loads of mule deer does. A lot from eastern MT, where they could some years buy 5 doe tags OTC.