Montana season change proposal

[Geewhiz]

I’d argue that keeping rifle rut hunting plays more into the “just wanting a trophy from the truck”. Pretty easy to kill a mule deer buck from the pickup in November. Not as simple in October.

You'd argue with a stop sign just to hear yourself talk.

 

[Greenhorn]

It's not surprising the the MBA crowd will froth at the mouth when you whisper shortening any archery hunting days. And the quickest way to infuriate a MT hillbilly is to tell them they shouldn't be shooting a roadside forked horn mule deer with it's nose in a does hind end.

 

[brockel]

You'd argue with a stop sign just to hear yourself talk.

Great contribution

 

[brockel]

It's not surprising the the MBA crowd will froth at the mouth when you whisper shortening any archery hunting days. And the quickest way to infuriate a MT hillbilly is to tell them they shouldn't be shooting a roadside forked horn mule deer with it's nose in a does hind end.

Can hunt mule deer for 10 weeks and bitch about lost opportunities

 

[Randy11]

Hey bud how about watching your language. No need to get ugly just because someone doesn't agree with the agenda you're trying to ramrod.


False. And while were discussing this, a major contributing factor to the numbers of hunters in SE MT is largely due to @Randy11 's buddy randy newberg burning spots right and left, and then proceeding to whine about it. Prove me wrong.

I apologize for using such dirty language.

I'm not trying to "ramrod" anything, and I haven't spoken to Newberg in years. I also agree that he and other influencers have completely ruined many public land spots. I would not have been on his show if I could have seen the direction that hunting media was headed.

I am getting nothing out of being on this group. If I'm an outlier and the rest of Montana is happy with status quo, then I won't stand in the way.

I'm certainly not going to take personal jabs from people hiding behind anonymous screen names. It's not worth the time or stress for me.

 

[Geewhiz]

If I'm an outlier and the rest of Montana is happy with status quo, then I won't stand in the way.

Sorry for the personal jab.


Well based on the fact the the same 6 guys have filled up over 100 pages on the topic on hunt talk, it does seam like this proposal is thoughts from a minority, many of which (not you, and not all I realize) are nonresidents whom I am sure don't necessarily have Montana's best interests in mind.

 

[Greenhorn]

Sorry for the personal jab.


Well based on the fact the the same 6 guys have filled up over 100 pages on the topic on hunt talk, it does seam like this proposal is thoughts from a minority, many of which (not you, and not all I realize) are nonresidents whom I am sure don't necessarily have Montana's best interests in mind.

A list of the "many" non-residents. Please point out which of those you're sure doesn't have MT best interests in mind.


The group that is coordinating the meetings and input is: https://montanaconservationsocietymt.org/

 

[Fire_9]

I'm certainly not going to take personal jabs from people hiding behind anonymous screen names. It's not worth the time or stress for me.

This is the part that really gets me. A group of citizens took time away from their families and spent their own money traveling to try and come up with a plan to improve a states resource and people's hunting experience. Is the plan perfect? Absolutely not. But it was a well thought out plan and wasn't just cobbled together. If nothing else it will give FWP and other working groups something to go off of.

But the personal attacks are crazy. The fact that people think a group or sportsman, private land owners, and outfitters came together to put a plan together to pull one over on the average joe hunter is mind blowing. If you don't agree with it, that's cool. But at least keep the personal attacks out of it and try to offer something constructive. I'm sure they'd love to hear other viable options

 

[Geewhiz]

But the personal attacks are crazy.

I feel like this is aimed at me so please inform me of the heinous crime that I committed.

 

[Formidilosus]

This is the part that really gets me. A group of citizens took time away from their families and spent their own money traveling to try and come up with a plan to improve a states resource and people's hunting experience. Is the plan perfect? Absolutely not. But it was a well thought out plan and wasn't just cobbled together. If nothing else it will give FWP and other working groups something to go off of.

But the personal attacks are crazy. The fact that people think a group or sportsman, private land owners, and outfitters came together to put a plan together to pull one over on the average joe hunter is mind blowing. If you don't agree with it, that's cool. But at least keep the personal attacks out of it and try to offer something constructive. I'm sure they'd love to hear other viable options

Who in this thread has personally attacked anyone?

And yes, in general neither landowners nor outfitters have the best interest in the average hunter in mind.

 

[Greenhorn]

And yes, in general neither landowners nor outfitters have the best interest in the average hunter in mind.

You are incorrect. That group includes everybody that has a role in how our state manages wildlife and enjoys hunting.

 

[Geewhiz]

You are incorrect. That group includes everybody that has a role in how our state manages wildlife and enjoys making money off of hunting.

FIFY

 

[brockel]

FIFY

Give me back my stop sign

 

[Greenhorn]

FIFY

There's 3 outfitters, 3 landowners, and I'm guessing 8 of the 11 have never been on a paid/guided hunt at all.

 

[Fire_9]

I feel like this is aimed at me so please inform me of the heinous crime that I committed.

It wasn't aimed at you or @Formidilosus. There are people out there who are questioning the intent and or integrity of the 9 that put this together. I've seen comments that I believe are actually worthy of one getting their teeth kicked in...

 

[Jon Boy]

Region 6 and 7 keep coming up as the key talking points.

Why hasn’t the committee come up with separate season structure for those 2 regions?

In regards to region 7 and elk hunting pressure resulting in more mule deer take, majority for r 7 is very limited draw for rifle hunts.

Does anyone really think there will be less young bucks killed in the earlier season? I think it will be opposite and people will be less picky and whack the same forkhorn in October that they would have in November. You could limit tags if you were trying to limit harvest but over all the same young dumb bucks are going to get whacked no matter the season.

Separating the seasons so elk hunters kill less mule deer. Seems like a completely ridiculous logic to me that will have the opposite effect.
If you can’t hunt elk everyone will be hunting deer and focusing solely on deer. If you’re looking for elk you’re likely not hunting the best area for deer as they rarely overlap, even with in the same unit. You can’t possibly think that ‘elk hunters’ won’t be out hunting just as hard for deer during the deer season, do you? I think this is going to result in higher take for deer. And quite honestly, it would benefit me. I’d get to focus solely on deer with out having a valid elk tag in my pocket and there fore I would put myself in places that traditionally hold deer.


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[Geewhiz]

Ok I'm going to stop being a smart a$$ and ask a legitimate question that I've asked in various places before without a legitimate response.


In any population there is a bell shaped curve that represents an average of whatever trait you happen to be focused on. This is no different with mule deer age class or elk antler size or how many spots are on a newborn fawn.

A big mature buck is not average and by definition, that quality that you are looking for is uncommon. In a natural state, big mature bucks are going to be difficult to find. Much like they are currently in Montana. Mediocre "average" bucks that are 3 points and smaller 4 points are not hard to find, hence being average. You are going to have to look hard for one and look over a number of "average" bucks to find an "above average" buck.

From what I see, the whole point of this proposal is to manage the deer in Montana for older age class, and numbers. By doing so the proposal is to limit hunting pressure and change the season dates. This results in less opportunity which is a word the proponents of the proposal don't like but its the fact.

As it stands right now, believe it or not but it is indeed possible to find a mature mule deer buck on public land. I have, consistently, in high pressure areas, without looking that hard. Yes I put in some time and yes I leave the truck and hike from time to time, and no I'm not the best hunter in the world. If I can do it, so can anybody. By definition of the previously mentioned law of averages, every hunter shouldn't be able to expect to harvest an above average buck every year. It doesn't work that way.

I have been successfully hunting Montana as a resident for over 20 years. Yes I've seen an increase in pressure from residents and nonresidents alike. I have also seen fluctuations in deer populations from various causes. It happens. Deer numbers may currently be lower than a few previous years but all populations have fluctuations. They are not dying out. Last year I looked over well over a hundred does, and 30+ bucks before I found one I liked, this was over 2 days on public land in a general unit that is filled with drivable roads and other hunters. The numbers are fine.

You guys want to be able to drive roads, glass and pick over 180's to find a 200, even if that means you can only draw a permit to hunt them every 19 years.

Like @Formidilosus said, why does every state have to be managed for monsters so much so that nobody can ever have the chance to hunt them?

I agree that too much pressure is an issue but I would propose to address that with regional caps, limiting NR hunters, limiting access by closing a large percentage of BLM 2 track roads, and quit selling 6 doe tags per hunter.

@Greenhorn you seem to know how to hunt, we've all seen your photos, @Randy11 I haven't seen your credentials but I am confident you're experienced as well.



So my question is, why are you guys so adamant to vote yourselves out of the opportunity for success even if you do have to exert a bit more energy than you would in other states (that take years and years to draw)? There are big bulls and big bucks killed in Montana every year in general units with over the counter tags by people who know how to hunt and hunt hard.


P. S. If this is all an elaborate ploy to put on a face to NR hunters that mule deer hunting in Montana is terrible so don't come here to hunt, somebody wink at me and I'll shut up.

@brockel

 

[jmez]

I'm with Formidilosus. He gets it. Go back 15 years and see the exact same arguments with the QDM movement. Horn porn pretty well ruined WT hunting in the Midwest for the average guys. It will do the same in the west.

Want more deer quit killing does. Increases deer numbers decrease pressure. It really is that simple.

Call a spade a spade. Nothing wrong with trophy hunting. Nothing wrong with shooting a fork horn. This is just more trophy management under the guise of "deer management."

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[Legend]

It absolutely could and one that worries me as well. My hope is that with a couple years of hard data on who picks what, we could look at regional caps. I might be too optimistic, but I think with no public land doe hunting in 6&7 for the next two years and no mule deer hunting in the rut, we’d be okay.

Also, I don’t think a regional cap on hunters is something this group would oppose.

I'm all for regional caps! It seems like an obvious need.

Thanks for serving on this group.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Geewhiz and @jmez

Y’all’s last two posts have it exactly.

I have not stated whether I am a “big buck hunter”, or a “forky smokie”- however being that I have killed one MD in 10 years despite hunting nearly a month for them, and I see 160” bucks most years. Maybe I’m a bad hunter.