Montana Rifle Co, Shoot2Hunt, and Rokslide Rifle

[wind gypsy]

The internet: why won’t companies work with people to make and offer better products and services without being sleezy or putting profit above all else?

Companies/people: ok, we’ll make and offer something better, and we’ll tell you and show you why, and we’ll do it for an honest price.


The internet: No. Now those people are just money grabbers, biased due to profit.

Companies/people: The person isn’t getting paid

The internet: What a fuggin idiot, how stupid- mommy and daddy must be paying for them.

The company/people: Ok. Keep being only offered junk and sub-par gear and being fed BS from the industry.

Didn’t mean the trust fund thing literally or to be derogatory. Just seems like the whole S2H school is your deal with a ton of time and effort invested. With how much $ people are paying, it just seems crazy that you wouldn’t be compensated for your efforts.

Getting paid for training is a far cry from shilling or representing brands. I can’t see how it would hurt anyone’s credibility.

 

[gbflyer]

Pretty cool. Good for you guys.

 

[Formidilosus]

Didn’t mean the trust fund thing literally or to be derogatory.

Oh I know you didn’t. Just what has been said.

Just seems like the whole S2H school is your deal with a ton of time and effort invested. With how much $ people are paying, it just seems crazy that you wouldn’t be compensated for your efforts.
Getting paid for training is a far cry from shilling or representing brands. I can’t see how it would hurt anyone’s credibility.

I mean, one would think. But this thread isn’t the first time people have claimed that I now am “biased” because of S2H- never mind that I don’t get paid, and that I am, and have been critical of several things done by all of the companies. I’m doing the classes, gear development and testing because it needs to be done- not to make money. The other teachers for S2H do get paid.

I am critical about everything done and there is zero bias or nonsense that I will participate in.

 

[HighUintas]

It’s a ways away from more/different models. I imagine it will depend on whether the market responds favorably to a company actually trying to do better, versus just copying what everyone else is doing.

Yes I understand that. I'd really like to get one (this first model maybe in 6ccm) at some point. Hopefully they do well and are still selling by the time I've got the funds

 

[mt100gr.]

Is there anyone on the development and/or marketing end of this that would be interested in doing a gear seminar? Seriously asking. Early March '25. The "smaller cartridges" stuff could explode some heads, too. It would be the "drinking from a fire hose" information overdose version, but I think it would be valuable. And sheep hunters are the ones with the coin to play this game.

Sell it.

 

[HighUintas]

Oh I know you didn’t. Just what has been said.






I mean, one would think. But this thread isn’t the first time people have claimed that I now am “biased” because of S2H- never mind that I don’t get paid, and that I am, and have been critical of several things done by all of the companies. I’m doing the classes, gear development and testing because it needs to be done- not to make money. The other teachers for S2H do get paid.

I am critical about everything done and there is zero bias or nonsense that I will participate in.

I think many people wonder if you're wealthy/retired and have connections to be able to affordably shoot and hunt so much or if you have a job in or related to the industry that allows you to be able to do what you do and not get paid for the things you say you've not been paid for, or if you're weirdly superhuman and can somehow work an entirely unrelated full time job, maybe have a family, and still shoot/hunt/etc as much as you do.

It's curious.

Regardless of the reason you're able to, I'm glad you're able to provide the experience and knowledge to make improvements without any financial biases.

 

[mtnbound]

It's pretty straightforward if you go through the MRC rifle review to see that @Formidilosus isn't showing any favoritism for this rifle and is pointing out several issues. I think it's great that a company sends out a product for an honest evaluation. This differs from the usual practice, where evaluators find no issues or problems. Will it replace my Tikkas? No, because I am one of those guys who would still tear that rifle apart and redo everything for myself, and I have been told that I do not have a problem short-stroking. I find the rifle interesting because if the company does what is being said, they are stepping up to a level that is, unfortunately, lacking anymore, and I would want to support such a business.

 

[Marbles]

@Formidilosus I do believe this project is a good one. I also appreciate the advances in equipment you have caused (I own 2 RokStoks, and have UM bolt handles on both my Tikkas). As a gear head, I like it and would be looking at lesser things to buy if those were not available.

However, with the advent of those, the lack of SWFAs, and the ever increasing price of a Tikka, it feels more and more like trying to buy skill when recommending things.

No longer is it a $600 Tikka, $40 vertical grip, $40 Sportsmatch rings, and a $300 scope. So, sub $1k.

Now it is a $850 Tikka, $250 cut and thread, $500 stock, $130 UM scope rings, $1,200 RS1.2, $70 bolt handle, and $480+200 muffler. So, $3,680 plus tax/shipping.

And now it will soon be $3-3.5K rifle, $1,200 scope, $170 NF rings, and $480+200 muffler. So, $5,050 to $5,550.

And damnit, I wish I hadn't done that math.

I am happy to see the innovation, I do believe they are improvements. The RokStok and UM bolt handle are excellent deals, and for what it is, so to will this rifle be. But, it feels different.

Another thing is that now quite a few of us recommend Tikkas, so you no longer have to. Which while not a reflection of you changing, it all the same shifts perspective. Of course, the A-10 suppressor recommendation shows you ae still focused on performance and value.

 

[Formidilosus]

However, with the advent of those, the lack of SWFAs, and the ever increasing price of a Tikka, it feels more and more like trying to buy skill when recommending things.

I don’t know what you are getting at- I don’t own or control SWFA. The price of everything has went up.

No longer is it a $600 Tikka, $40 vertical grip, $40 Sportsmatch rings, and a $300 scope. So, sub $1k.

No…? And what do I have to do with that?

Can you show me a single post where I have tried to convince someone that they should buy a ROKStok, a RS1.2, or UM rings? A suppressor- yes. People should be using cans.

Now it is a $850 Tikka, $250 cut and thread, $500 stock, $130 UM scope rings, $1,200 RS1.2, $70 bolt handle, and $480+200 muffler. So, $3,680 plus tax/shipping.

Someone has told you that you must do those things?

I don’t know how to break it to you, but a Tikka with a ROKStok, a suppressor, a scope that works and rings that are reliable- is a better rifle than without those things. And saying that is being honest.

And now it will soon be $3-3.5K rifle, $1,200 scope, $170 NF rings, and $480+200 muffler. So, $5,050 to $5,550.

And damnit, I wish I hadn't done that math.

Ok..? So you want to be shooting a Ruger American with a vortex? What is your point here?

I am happy to see the innovation, I do believe they are improvements. The RokStok and UM bolt handle are excellent deals, and for what it is, so to will this rifle be. But, it feels different.

I’m not sure what “feelings” you have, or why you have them.

I still have no idea what you are getting at with this post. Something is only “better” when it’s cheap? If McMillan or Manners would have made what became the ROKStok a decade ago when they were asked- the “ROKStok” would have been $700+.

I didn’t care (not entirely true) what the stock cost, or what the handle cost, what the classes cost or what the MRC rifle will cost- I care that it is done correctly and that people are getting their money’s worth. I am not selling you anything.

Another thing is that now quite a few of us recommend Tikkas, so you no longer have to. Which while not a reflection of you changing, it all the same shifts perspective. Of course, the A-10 suppressor recommendation shows you ae still focused on performance and value.

I did not, and do not shoot and use Tikka’s, SWFA’s, and Sportsmatch rings because they were “cheap”. I use them because they were, or are- the best item to fit the job. The moment something is available that is better, I use that item.

I am confused about your this post of yours. I have stated since I started posting on this board that it is utterly ridiculous that the best hunting rifle on the market is a $700 “budget” gun from Finland, and that it is a joke that the best all-around hunting scope is a renamed Tasco in “airgun” rings. Thats not a condemnation of those items- they are really good. But it is a condemnation of the state of the US outdoor industry that the “best” American “custom” action can’t beat the Finns cheapest thing they make. And that the “best” hunting scopes in the world, aren’t as good for hunting as a scope from 1993 from a defunct brand.


I do not understand what your issue is, or why you have it. Nothing on my base position has changed. At the most foundational level- I am doing what I am doing because I want the market to have higher quality items that actually work- because then I have available higher quality items to use for myself.


I want better products. I want you to have the option of better products. I want a father who is buying his child their first hunting rifle to have the option of buying better products, and the knowledge of why they are better.

 

[Dobermann]

@Formidilosus I do believe this project is a good one. I also appreciate the advances in equipment you have caused (I own 2 RokStoks, and have UM bolt handles on both my Tikkas). As a gear head, I like it and would be looking at lesser things to buy if those were not available.

However, with the advent of those, the lack of SWFAs, and the ever increasing price of a Tikka, it feels more and more like trying to buy skill when recommending things.

No longer is it a $600 Tikka, $40 vertical grip, $40 Sportsmatch rings, and a $300 scope. So, sub $1k.

Now it is a $850 Tikka, $250 cut and thread, $500 stock, $130 UM scope rings, $1,200 RS1.2, $70 bolt handle, and $480+200 muffler. So, $3,680 plus tax/shipping.

And now it will soon be $3-3.5K rifle, $1,200 scope, $170 NF rings, and $480+200 muffler. So, $5,050 to $5,550.

And damnit, I wish I hadn't done that math.

I am happy to see the innovation, I do believe they are improvements. The RokStok and UM bolt handle are excellent deals, and for what it is, so to will this rifle be. But, it feels different.

Another thing is that now quite a few of us recommend Tikkas, so you no longer have to. Which while not a reflection of you changing, it all the same shifts perspective. Of course, the A-10 suppressor recommendation shows you ae still focused on performance and value.

[Edited to add: @Formidilosus posted the above as I was typing; I'll leave my below for a similar but different take.]

I'm not Form, but some things in this post just don't make sense.

The price increase for Tikkas is what it is; Form clearly has nothing to do with that.

SWFA scopes and Sportsmatch rings still work. The SWFA was always an outlier in terms of price to performance - in part because it's a simple scope with an unchanged recipe. The RS1.2 is priced closer to similar offerings.

Cutting, threading, and suppressor has always been recommended. As has a round bolt knob (previously, the main option was Turbon knobs).

The Rokstock is clearly an improvement, but arguably is what most stocks should be like. And plenty of people on here who've made their own vertical grip and negative comb mods to factory stocks.

As for actions other than Tikka, Form has always said he likes pre-64 Winchesters. As for higher-end offerings, as with the MRC, Form has always recommended Steyr, Sako, Blaser, etc.

I get your overall point that now that we have better (far better, in some cases) offerings than a stock Tikka and fixed SWFA, then things will cost more. But we're not comparing apples with apples - and this is clearly not about "trying to buy skill when recommending things" - it's about buying things that have clear performance benefits due to better design.

Again, Form has always said that the best thing to spend money on is a case of 223 and to go and learn to shoot well.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm not Form, but some things in this post just don't make sense.

The price increase for Tikkas is what it is; Form clearly has nothing to do with that.

SWFA scopes and Sportsmatch rings still work. The SWFA was always an outlier in terms of price to performance - in part because it's a simple scope with an unchanged recipe. The RS1.2 is priced closer to similar offerings.

Cutting, threading, and suppressor has always been recommended. As has a round bolt knob (previously, the main option was Turbon knobs).

The Rokstock is clearly an improvement, but arguably is what most stocks should be like. And plenty of people on here who've made their own vertical grip and negative comb mods to factory stocks.

As for actions other than Tikka, Form has always said he likes pre-64 Winchesters. As for higher-end offerings, as with the MRC, Form has always recommended Steyr, Sako, Blaser, etc.

I get your overall point that now that we have better (far better, in some cases) offerings than a stock Tikka and fixed SWFA, then things will cost more. But we're not comparing apples with apples - and this is clearly not about "trying to buy skill when recommending things" - it's about buying things that have clear performance benefits due to better design.

Again, Form has always said that the best thing to spend money on is a case of 223 and to go and learn to shoot well.

@Marbles Dobbermann’s post above is spot on. Nearly perfectly correct.

 

[Dobermann]

Nearly perfectly correct.

Moushiwake gozaimasen. I will try harder next time, Sensei!

 

[Castle Rock]

If Form isn’t being paid he ought to be, he has sold more shit than most TV evangelists

 

[Imac45acp]

Sounds like a nice setup. I'm hoping they sell bare actions with no machining on the integral scope bases, just square bridges that I can fit to whatever rings I want.

On a more in line tact, what method are they using to deal with bolt bind?

The previous MRC design used a dovetail shaped left bolt lug that was supposed to mate to a dovetail shaped raceway in the receiver. It was a stupendously hit or miss system since they didn't fit the bolt to the receiver and loose bolts would bind horribly. It was luck of the draw if the bolt lugs were a good fit to the receiver since the bolts were just pulled from a bin and put in whichever receiver was on the bench.

I fixed a bunch of them over the years.

Jeremy

The new receiver uses a dovetail left lug as well. The key difference between the old and new is how it's done-
The old receivers and bolts were investment castings. Every pair had to be made to fit on the bench. Very dependent on the skill of the 'smith and the "luck of the draw" as you say.
The new receivers and bolts are fully machined from solid with some pretty tight tolerancing. They fit because they were designed from the start to do so. I actually had to increase some design clearances a bit in development because I made everything too tight.

If the action will hold it without too much work, I'd work in a .375 h&h option.

I'm torture testing the long action right now in .375 H&H. We've got some DG rifle stuff in the works.

The only way for a new gun company to start, grow, and be sustainably profitable - if it isn't backed by 8-figure investment - is to find a very narrow niche and be at or near-best in class. Own the niche that has the least amount of direct competition. Having the Rokstock alone as a factory option qualifies there - add in the expected competence of the build, and they'll create a following fast. But competing on low prices is the highway to doom for a small company. You can't out-walmart Ruger or Savage on price point, or low-cost value. So, find the niche people are willing to pay for, be damn good at it, and grow from there.

Thankfully it isn't just MRC here. Grace Engineering is a third gen, family owned business, better known to the public as G5 Outdoors and Prime Archery. While I'm the only one 100% dedicated to the firearms side of the company, we have an army of machining and manufacturing experts backing this project up.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Hey some of us are still slumming swfa's and sportsmatch rings.

 

[Wapiti1]

The new receiver uses a dovetail left lug as well. The key difference between the old and new is how it's done-
The old receivers and bolts were investment castings. Every pair had to be made to fit on the bench. Very dependent on the skill of the 'smith and the "luck of the draw" as you say.
The new receivers and bolts are fully machined from solid with some pretty tight tolerancing. They fit because they were designed from the start to do so. I actually had to increase some design clearances a bit in development because I made everything too tight.


I'm torture testing the long action right now in .375 H&H. We've got some DG rifle stuff in the works.


Thankfully it isn't just MRC here. Grace Engineering is a third gen, family owned business, better known to the public as G5 Outdoors and Prime Archery. While I'm the only one 100% dedicated to the firearms side of the company, we have an army of machining and manufacturing experts backing this project up.

View attachment 792648
View attachment 792650

That is what I suspected in the fully machined actions you are making. Don't take it as I think its a bad design. It's in the execution. I made a fair amount of money fixing the old cast actions and wondered if you took the original design or modified it. Once they were fit properly, it was a slick action, but took some work.

If you ever look at the really big bore stuff, don't go with the PH design. It was too big and had a lot of cost cutting items that made it not what was really wanted. I've built on several. Still have a Rigby bolt face one sitting on a shelf.

Any future builder's actions on the horizon or just complete rifles?

Jeremy

 

[mtnbound]

The new receiver uses a dovetail left lug as well. The key difference between the old and new is how it's done-
The old receivers and bolts were investment castings. Every pair had to be made to fit on the bench. Very dependent on the skill of the 'smith and the "luck of the draw" as you say.
The new receivers and bolts are fully machined from solid with some pretty tight tolerancing. They fit because they were designed from the start to do so. I actually had to increase some design clearances a bit in development because I made everything too tight.


I'm torture testing the long action right now in .375 H&H. We've got some DG rifle stuff in the works.


Thankfully it isn't just MRC here. Grace Engineering is a third gen, family owned business, better known to the public as G5 Outdoors and Prime Archery. While I'm the only one 100% dedicated to the firearms side of the company, we have an army of machining and manufacturing experts backing this project up.

View attachment 792648
View attachment 792650

Any idea on what the build time will be for these rifles we are taking about? Are you going to have receivers/barrels in stock and then build once an order is received or will each rifle be built one at a time. I realize you don’t want to sit on a bunch of spare parts just wanting to get more detail. Thanks

 

[Marbles]

@Formidilosus I tried and apparently failed to be clear that the cost is not your fault. My point was on why some peoples perceptions may have changed. You clearly took it differently.

Anyway, I'm going to go enjoy the two small caliber Tikkas in RokStoks I have with UM bolt handles, RS1.2s, and no bipod because what you say works actually does work. I'm also going to try my best to bow out of this conversation because I'm not trying to be combative and it appears I am coming across as such.

 

[JFK]

Seems like a cool project. Not for me, but will be what many are looking for and it’s good to see a company step up.

There will always be improvement. Can’t fault people for pushing forward. There seems to be a tone in many of the responses that they have been misled when they have not. With so many things in life, the key is to be happy (or not) with what you have. This rifle isn’t revolutionary. It’s an incremental improvement and the law of diminishing returns most certainly applies here.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus I tried and apparently failed to be clear that the cost is not your fault. My point was on why some peoples perceptions may have changed. You clearly took it differently.

Anyway, I'm going to go enjoy the two small caliber Tikkas in RokStoks I have with UM bolt handles, RS1.2s, and no bipod because what you say works actually does work. I'm also going to try my best to bow out of this conversation because I'm not trying to be combative and it appears I am coming across as such.

It’s all good, I was/am confused. No issues at all, and you absolutely should be skeptical and questioning.