Montana preference points expiration

[Steve O]

And what happens when there are more people at max then tags for multiple years and it keeps creeping and you can't plan anything because you never get the tag?
Not sure you've experienced real point creep.

That’s the price you pay for chasing the “blue chips”. I’ve been playing the point game for close to 30 years; I’m well versed in point creep.

 

[BRTreedogs]

That’s the price you pay for chasing the “blue chips”. I’ve been playing the point game for close to 30 years; I’m well versed in point creep.

Its a price I wouldn't have to pay if they reset everyone's points.

 

[fatlander]

And what happens when there are more people at max then tags for multiple years and it keeps creeping and you can't plan anything because you never get the tag?
Not sure you've experienced real point creep.

The outfitters and landowners will lobby to move the goal post again to benefit their clients at the detriment of diy non residents.


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[Steve O]

Its a price I wouldn't have to pay if they reset everyone's points.

Dude, you are dreaming. All this does is make the points worthless. In three years, the only ones who with have a chance to draw are those with 3 points and then the point creep will begin again.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Dude, you are dreaming. All this does is make the points worthless. In three years, the only ones who with have a chance to draw are those with 3 points and then the point creep will begin again.

The points are worthless anyways.
At least creep stops at 3 years. One time in every 3 years your gonna be ahead of most. And not have who knows how many people ahead of you for how many ever years.

 

[BRTreedogs]

The outfitters and landowners will lobby to move the goal post again to benefit their clients at the detriment of diy non residents.


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What exactly is you point? They fight for it, the diy guys do our best to fight against it.

You could start a lobby to ban outfitters.

 

[jek5224]

The points are worthless anyways.
At least creep stops at 3 years. One time in every 3 years your gonna be ahead of most. And not have who knows how many people ahead of you for how many ever years.

The problem is that max points likely will not guarantee a draw by next year, maybe even this year. Especially now that a hunter who currently has 0 points and decides to hunt with an outfitter next year can go into the drawing with 3 points (buy one this year, buy one and an extra outfitter point next year). The points have become meaningless, and until the regulations change again there will be people stuck in the endless limbo of having maximum points with an unknowable number of people joining those ranks every year. We are one year away from the draw essentially becoming a random draw.

 

[fatlander]

What exactly is you point? They fight for it, the diy guys do our best to fight against it.

You could start a lobby to ban outfitters.

My point is there are people with points right now that bought into a system that has had the goal post moved to benefit a select few.

My further point is that the goal post will again be moved to continue to benefit the few while bringing further detriments to the many.

We’re both saying the same thing. Points suck. However you’re saying well it could be worse, and others are saying it will be worse.

Montana won’t give up on the cash cow that it preference points. Outfitters know that and they’ll exploit their ties to politicians to make sure it benefits their bottom line and to hell with everyone else.


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[BRTreedogs]

My point is there are people with points right now that bought into a system that has had the goal post moved to benefit a select few.

My further point is that the goal post will again be moved to continue to benefit the few while bringing further detriments to the many.

We’re both saying the same thing. Points suck. However you’re saying well it could be worse, and others are saying it will be worse.

Montana won’t give up on the cash cow that it preference points. Outfitters know that and they’ll exploit their ties to politicians to make sure it benefits their bottom line and to hell with everyone else.


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I'm not sure regurgitating that it will get worse is doing anything tho. Just stating the same thing over and over in the same thread is just bitching and isn't doing anything.
All I'm saying is coming from a state that people have accumulated a lifetime of points and creep just keeps going. My 15 points are not any better to me then 3. So I support points being reset.
I don't support people that book with outfitters having an upper hand.
Zero points in Montana gets me better odds of drawing a deer tag then my 15 points do in Oregon, yes the percentage odds are un fact better.

 

[fatlander]

I'm not sure regurgitating that it will get worse is doing anything tho. Just stating the same thing over and over in the same thread is just bitching and isn't doing anything.
All I'm saying is coming from a state that people have accumulated a lifetime of points and creep just keeps going. My 15 points are not any better to me then 3. So I support points being reset.
I don't support people that book with outfitters having an upper hand.
Zero points in Montana gets me better odds of drawing a deer tag then my 15 points do in Oregon, yes the percentage odds are un fact better.

Again, we’re saying the same thing.

Points suck.

But you saying, having it capped at 3 isn’t that bad is factually inaccurate. The goal post will move again, and if people have a better understanding of what is going to get worse when they move again, they’re better prepared to fight it.

I wish MT would do away with all nonresident preference points and go to straight random for the combo.


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[Steve O]

I'm not sure regurgitating that it will get worse is doing anything tho. Just stating the same thing over and over in the same thread is just bitching and isn't doing anything.
All I'm saying is coming from a state that people have accumulated a lifetime of points and creep just keeps going. My 15 points are not any better to me then 3. So I support points being reset.
I don't support people that book with outfitters having an upper hand.
Zero points in Montana gets me better odds of drawing a deer tag then my 15 points do in Oregon, yes the percentage odds are un fact better.

BRT, the key thing you are missing is it will help you ONCE. And I’m not trying to argue with you. I feel your pain. There are three states I don’t participate in the draw because they are so messed up; Oregon is at the top of the list followed closely by Washington and California. Seems to be quite a few things in common that that are so screwed up that far west…

 

[BRTreedogs]

BRT, the key thing you are missing is it will help you ONCE. And I’m not trying to argue with you. I feel your pain. There are three states I don’t participate in the draw because they are so messed up; Oregon is at the top of the list followed closely by Washington and California. Seems to be quite a few things in common that that are so screwed up that far west…

So discounting the outfitter up sell. Because that is what we currently have,

You would draw the tag every 3rd year?
Then you go to zero.
How you it not help me to get a tag again after 3 years to have everyone ahead of me zeroed after 3 years?

If you talk about the big 3 elk units in Oregon there's around 5 years of people at max. If you 3 years behind there's life 25 years worth.

I don't see how resetting everyone ever 3 years isn't beneficial.

 

[jek5224]

So discounting the outfitter up sell. Because that is what we currently have,

You would draw the tag every 3rd year?
Then you go to zero.
How you it not help me to get a tag again after 3 years to have everyone ahead of me zeroed after 3 years?

If you talk about the big 3 elk units in Oregon there's around 5 years of people at max. If you 3 years behind there's life 25 years worth.

I don't see how resetting everyone ever 3 years isn't beneficial.

You would not draw the tag every 3 years because there is a cap on NR licenses, but there is no cap on NR's with 3 points. In the not too distant future there will be more people with 3 points than available licenses. And then it is a completely random draw where one person could conceivably draw every 3 years, and another person could apply every year for 30 years and never draw. It negates the purpose of even having preference points.

 

[BRTreedogs]

You would not draw the tag every 3 years because there is a cap on NR licenses, but there is no cap on NR's with 3 points. In the not too distant future there will be more people with 3 points than available licenses. And then it is a completely random draw where one person could conceivably draw every 3 years, and another person could apply every year for 30 years and never draw. It negates the purpose of even having preference points.

But the 3 points will get reset. You'll have at least some chance.
Even if 200,000 people apply with 3 points its a 15% odds at 12,750 tags.
With 15 points in Oregon I have like a .3 percent chance

 

[jek5224]

But the 3 points will get reset. You'll have at least some chance.
Even if 200,000 people apply with 3 points its a 15% odds at 12,750 tags.
With 15 points in Oregon I have like a .3 percent chance

At least as I understand it the points will not get re-set. They only do so if you draw or fail to apply. In a situation where there are more people holding 3 preference points than there are tags available, there will always be someone with max points who is not guaranteed a tag. And then it becomes a random draw for those with max points, which will soon be everyone.

 

[BRTreedogs]

At least as I understand it the points will not get re-set. They only do so if you draw or fail to apply. In a situation where there are more people holding 3 preference points than there are tags available, there will always be someone with max points who is not guaranteed a tag. And then it becomes a random draw for those with max points, which will soon be everyone.

Hmmm so your saying as long as everyone keeps applying the max pool will keep increasing?

 

[Erict]

I called Montana FWP Licensing to get some of these questions clarified. To keep everything in context, the full Montana PREFERENCE POINT law is below. It was changed in 2021.

- “Former” law is crossed out
- “New” law is underlined
- RED text is added by me based on the call with FWP, and applies to the paragraph above it.

Not shown, but FYI - last year, and only for 2021, NR hunters that had a contract with an outfitter were all able to get a general license - that is no longer true - they will have to draw just like everyone else in the same pool. Hope this is more helpful than confusing......



"87-2-115. Nonresident elk and deer license preference point system.

• The department shall establish a preference point system to distribute Class B-10 nonresident big game combination licenses and Class B-11 nonresident deer combination licenses.
• Nonresidents applying to purchase a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license may purchase a preference point, upon payment of a nonrefundable $50 $100 fee, that gives an applicant who has more preference points priority to receive a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license over an applicant who has purchased fewer preference points.

*** - I did not ask FWP the question, but someone here asked if you get a PP if you don’t draw. There is no freebie here – if you want a PP you pay for it. Additionally, let's say you were automatically awarded a freebie PP if you did not draw, this would give you 1 PP for next year. Having 1 PP is worse than having 0 PP. Would you really want that?

An applicant may:

purchase only one preference point per license year except a nonresident hunting with an outfitter licensed pursuant to Title 37, chapter 47, part 3, and providing the documentation required in subsection (8), may purchase two preference points per license year. No applicant may accumulate more than three preference points total.; and

*** - FWP confirmed that the system will not allow one to apply for PP that would put them over the maximum of 3 PP. So, someone here asked if they can accumulate 3 then apply for another with the license application - they cannot. They did not have an answer when asked if they have a plan for the day when 3 PP are not 100% draw. I made it clear that I am not even sure that is a possibility. If the day comes, it would mean that 3 PP would put you in the top of the license draw, but not guaranteed. As someone mentioned, this defeats the purpose of PP.

purchase a preference point without applying for a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license. An applicant not applying for a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license may purchase a preference point only between July 1 and September 30 December 31 of that license year. The department shall delete an applicant's accumulated preference points if the applicant does not apply for a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license for 3 consecutive years.

***- FWP confirmed that the system WILL NOT allow one to buy a PP if they had applied for a B-10 or B-11 license that year. In other words, you cannot apply for a license, not get drawn, then buy a PP later in the year.

(4) (a) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), the department may not delete an applicant's

accumulated preference points unless the applicant obtains the license applied for, in which case the The department shall delete the an applicant's accumulated preference points if the applicant:

obtains a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license; or does not apply for a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license in consecutive years.

***FWP confirms that if you apply for a license AND a LE permit, then do not get drawn for the permit, you can still get a refund, BUT you have already “obtained” the license so your PP are zeroed out. I don't hunt LE permit units, but those that do will likely find this an additional complication trying to time their PP for the license draw and the BONUS POINTS with the LE draw. Good luck.

(b) If an applicant is unsuccessful in drawing a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license, the department shall
allow the applicant to keep and apply preference points to subsequent drawings if done in consecutive years.

***See the red text below if ever considering "outfitter" PP.

The department shall issue 75% of the Class B-10 and Class B-11 licenses made available for purchase pursuant to 87-2-505 and 87-2-510 by drawings in which the licenses are awarded to applicants in the order of which applicants have purchased the greatest number of preference points. If the number of licenses to be issued under this subsection exceeds the number of applicants who have purchased preference points, the remaining licenses must be added to the licenses issued pursuant to subsection (6).

The department shall issue 25% of the Class B-10 and Class B-11 licenses made available for purchase pursuant to 87-2-505 and 87-2-510 by drawings in which the licenses are awarded to applicants who have not purchased any preference points. If the number of licenses to be issued under this subsection exceeds the number of applicants who have not purchased preference points, the remaining licenses must be added to the licenses issued pursuant to subsection (5).

Up to five applicants may apply as a party under this section. The department shall use an average of the number of preference points accumulated by those applicants to determine their priority in receiving licenses issued pursuant to subsection (5). The department shall use any fraction that results from the calculation of an average when determining that priority calculate the average rounded to the third decimal place.

A nonresident purchasing a second preference point pursuant to subsection (3)(a) shall provide
written affirmation at the time of application indicating the name and license number of the outfitter with whom the person intends to hunt. If the nonresident obtains the license applied for with the preference points purchased pursuant to subsection (3)(a), the nonresident may only use the license when accompanied by an outfitter or the outfitter's designee licensed to provide guiding services.

***FWP confirmed that “outfitter” PP are indeed just that. If in 2022 you meet the outfitter requirements and apply for one PP and the additional “outfitter” PP. You have 2 going in to the draw. If you do not draw, then decide next year to go DIY, your “outfitter” PP does not apply. You would only have 1 PP.

(a) Fees collected from a nonresident purchasing a second preference point pursuant to subsection (3)(a) must be allocated as follows:
25% to public access land agreements established pursuant to 87-1-295;
25% to hunting access programs established pursuant to 87-1-265;
25% to the future fisheries program established in 87-1-272 with a priority given to funding projects
that provide public access through private property; and
25% to the purchase of permanent easements through private property to access otherwise inaccessible lands. An easement funded by this subsection (9)(a)(iv) may be granted only across private land to public land that is leased by the landowner, public land for which there is no leaseholder, or public land for which the landowner has consent of the leaseholder.

The department may expend up to 10% of the revenue allocated pursuant to subsection (9)(a) to pay administrative costs incurred by the department for the purposes outlined in subsection (9)(a), including but not limited to contracting and transaction costs incurred by the department or entities partnering with the department, and for providing support to the private land/public wildlife advisory committee for its review of public access land agreements pursuant to 87-1-295.

At the end of each fiscal year, funds allocated pursuant to subsection (9)(a) that remain unobligated are available to the department for any purpose pursuant to 87-1-201(3)."

 

[fatlander]

I called Montana FWP Licensing to get
[/LIST]
*** - I did not ask FWP the question, but someone here asked if you get a PP if you don’t draw. There is no freebie here – if you want a PP you pay for it. Additionally, let's say you were automatically awarded a freebie PP if you did not draw, this would give you 1 PP for next year. Having 1 PP is worse than having 0 PP. Would you really want that?

You are correct that you probably don’t want to apply with one point this year.

You’re missing the fact that if you don’t buy it at application, you can’t buy it later in the year.

So you apply with zero, and don’t draw. You’re now behind the curve again.

If you buy a point this year, and don’t apply you must apply next year. Albeit, there will be a time that 2 points is no man’s land as well. Read that as, you have to buy 200 dollars of preference points and, pay an application fee that you know you’re not getting back, just so you’ll have a chance to draw the third year.

It’s a cluster. The only thing this new law does is bump outfitted clients ahead of everyone else. It’s absolutely hoses the average joe. If outfitters are so great, they shouldn’t need state sponsored well fare to stay in business.

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[mTNhunter86]

I don’t think anyone answered this previously (sorry if so), but I just spoke to FWP to ask about the scenario where you don’t draw the limited entry permit and so you elect to return the general tag. According to the person I spoke to, you’re back to zero on the preference points and will get an 80% refund. Essentially, Montana will treat you as though you drew the general tag even though you stated you didn’t want it if you don’t draw your LE tag.

 

[mTNhunter86]

***FWP confirms that if you apply for a license AND a LE permit, then do not get drawn for the permit, you can still get a refund, BUT you have already “obtained” the license so your PP are zeroed out. I don't hunt LE permit units, but those that do will likely find this an additional complication trying to time their PP for the license draw and the BONUS POINTS with the LE draw. Good luck.

Thanks. This is what I was told too. Which you’re right, makes timing hard. I’ll have two preference points this year but will probably be a bonus point short. So now I’m stuck, I’ll have to apply and either eat the preference points or take my general tag. Was planning on Wyoming this year and Montana next.