Montana preference points expiration

[KINGSNAKE]

The outfitter is no more cost than a prefrence point

You can purchase a point when applying this year for your 3rd point, correct.

Sounds like it

 

[Riplip]

We and my partner bought points the past 2 years. Can we buy a point this year and have 3 points to draw a tag this year or do we just have the two points going into the draw. I was not planning on applying this year but if we don't we loose our points so I guess we're now trying to get a.deer tag for this crazy state.

Yes you can buy a point and have 3 going into draw.

FWIW, under the previous rule you would have lost your points regardless if you did not apply in 2022

 

[Rifleman86]

Do you think anyone will get a tag applying with one point?

Debating if I even want to apply this year… In for Wyoming General which I should draw, but the plan was apply for MT as well and withdraw from WY on the off chance I’m successful. I was hoping to go back to MT in 2023 with two points.

Just applying with no points from this point forward might be the best option, but it’s nice to plan things out… I’m really pissed at MT for the outfitter rule, at this point nobody knows what it will mean long term.

 

[sneaky]

it was 99.98%, only 1 person with 2 didn't draw if I'm not mistaken. I have two now and I'm worried 3 wont make it this year with the Outfitter point addition to everyone that will apply this year having 1 point, purchasing a point AND adding an outfitter point to match my 3 points...there was 15,595 people with 1 point last year and 5,413 received a tag, so that means there are 10,182 people that APPLIED last year that can have 3 points this year. Not to mention the people, like me, that didn't apply at all....3 point wont be 100% this year. I hope my math is wrong....Just with the Big Game combo...

How many of those that applied and didn't get a tag lose their points because they turned down the general tag because they didn't draw their LE permit? It's a cluster. I have a feeling this draw is going to be a cluster this year, and MYFWP doesn't care.

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[sneaky]

FWIW, I think go hunt made a mistake with those numbers they have out right now. They’re identical to the last years statistics that are on the FWP website.

I don’t see how 2 points will be 100% when 13k didn’t draw with one point last year. There’s only 12,750 preference point tags.


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Not everyone who applied is applying for the same thing though. Some applied for combos, some for elk only, some for deer only

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[sneaky]

We and my partner bought points the past 2 years. Can we buy a point this year and have 3 points to draw a tag this year or do we just have the two points going into the draw. I was not planning on applying this year but if we don't we loose our points so I guess we're now trying to get a.deer tag for this crazy state.

You need to read the new regs. Looks like if you buy points in consecutive years and don't apply for a license they zero those points out. It was posted in an earlier response and is in the new regs. Does that mean you lost both points? Or just the one from 2 years ago since you are applying this year which would be the 2nd consecutive year with the point you bought last year? MT makes it way more complicated than it should be just to suck up to the outfitters.

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[ndbuck09]

Thanks erict for the links you posted earlier. The table below is exactly why I start raging when I hear these stupid popular hunting companies and organizations whine and cry about hunter numbers going down. In Idaho, the tag quotas for nearly all zones were also gone in hours this year. In Montana there's been more than double the number of non-res trying to hunt in the last 5 years! We need to put a stop to the stupid, idiotic, cryfest about low hunter numbers. Only reason it's a thing in the hunting industry is because it keeps the hunting company revenues $ growing year over year.

 

[fatlander]

Not everyone who applied is applying for the same thing though. Some applied for combos, some for elk only, some for deer only

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Seems like you haven’t looked at the FWP data. Couple things wrong with what you’re saying:

There are 3 different license you can apply for as a nonresident:

Deer combo
Elk combo
Big game combo

There are only 17,000 nonresident big game (elk) combo.

12,750 of those go for preference.

When you apply, you can select elk only but you’ve actually drawn the big game combo. The state doesn’t care whether you decided to pay for an extra deer permit or not.

Again, you didn’t read the FWP published numbers on their site or above, so I’ll list them all out here.

In 2021 for the big game combo:

309 applied with 3 points. 100% success
4218 applied with 2 points. 99.98% success
15595 applied with 1 point. 34.71% success

1 person didn’t draw BG combo with 2 points
10,182 people didn’t draw BG combo with 1 point

In 2021 for the elk combo:

101 applied with 3 points. 100% success
1104 applied with 2 points. 100% success
4604 applied with 1 point. 34.77% success

3,003 people didn’t draw elk combo with 1 point

So that leaves us 13,186 people that have at least 1 preference point that didn’t draw at the application time last year. There’s only 12,750 preference point tags for elk. See the problem now?


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[deerhunt1988]

I've read through 4 pages and still am not sure about my current situation.

Have bought pref. Points the past two years and not applied. Was planning on applying this year with 3 for 100% draw. Then the rule changed about not applying on consecutive years.

I ASSUME I'm "grandfathered" in and will still have 2 points going into this year's draw. I'll buy another point at time of application giving me 3. Letting me a draw a license.

Is this correct? Confusing as heck.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I've read through 4 pages and still am not sure about my current situation.

Have bought pref. Points the past two years and not applied. Was planning on applying this year with 3 for 100% draw. Then the rule changed about not applying on consecutive years.

I ASSUME I'm "grandfathered" in and will still have 2 points going into this year's draw. I'll buy another point at time of application giving me 3. Letting me a draw a license.

Is this correct? Confusing as heck.

Just go into your my fwp and see if you're points are in there or not.

 

[pk_]

Effective March 1, 2022 -

The department shall delete an applicant's accumulated preference points if the applicant:


(ii) does not apply for a Class B-10 or Class B-11 license in consecutive years.

I sent an email to FWP asking for confirmation.
To whom it may concern,

I was trying to confirm how many years you can purchase just a preference point without applying for a general tag. I bought a point last year, do I have to apply this year to keep my point or can I wait until next year.

Their response:
Once you have purchased a preference point, you must apply for the lottery the following year in order to avoid losing that point. You must apply consecutive years thereafter to begin accumulating them, assuming you don't draw in the lottery. If you do end up being successful in the drawing, you will also lose your preference point accumulation and start over from zero.

Reading the reg. It sounded like you could buy a PP every other year and apply every other year.

From the response, it seems this is not the case?

 

[deerhunt1988]

Just go into your my fwp and see if you're points are in there or not.

Ok, I feel dumb now. They there, so i reckon we good for this fall!

 

[orionsbrother]

It may be expensive but its better then thousands of people being able to buy points for years and years. And point creep getting worse and worse then the unit isn't even any good anymore.

Well... it sucks for me. Covid and work have really raked me over. In the chaos, I didn’t apply for impossible units and I’ll have to see where I stand as far as lost preference points because of that.

Looks like all of that work is for naught. I’ll have a freer schedule because the business is succumbing and assets are getting sold off... but I may not be able to draw.

70-75 hours a week, working holidays, nights, weekends, every day being another scavenger hunt to try to overcome supply chain issues, hunts and vacations cancelled, all for nothing and now... probably won’t even draw for a couple of years. Crap!

Well, I can still hunt whitetail at home and act as a pack animal and camp bitch for my buddies. Guess I should review some of the camp shoe threads.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Well... it sucks for me. Covid and work have really raked me over. In the chaos, I didn’t apply for impossible units and I’ll have to see where I stand as far as lost preference points because of that.

Looks like all of that work is for naught. I’ll have a freer schedule because the business is succumbing and assets are getting sold off... but I may not be able to draw.

70-75 hours a week, working holidays, nights, weekends, every day being another scavenger hunt to try to overcome supply chain issues, hunts and vacations cancelled, all for nothing and now... probably won’t even draw for a couple of years. Crap!

Well, I can still hunt whitetail at home and act as a pack animal and camp bitch for my buddies. Guess I should review some of the camp shoe threads.

The part your missing is in a state with unlimited points is you spend money do the work and still not draw, because everyone has points to.

 

[orionsbrother]

The part your missing is in a state with unlimited points is you spend money do the work and still not draw, because everyone has points to.

Oh. I get it. I’m not missing anything. I’m chasing point creep in WY. It’s taking a few more points to draw in the area I hunt there.

It’s my fault in the end. I didn’t do my due diligence and put in for an impossible unit at 11:45pm after my 43rd workday in a row. I blew it and fell asleep. I should have been on top of things.

I’m not pleased with myself. I’m not pleased with the system.

I can wish that I was better looking and independently wealthy or I can adapt and move forward.

I’m just temporarily surly.

An old man told me once that it’s difficult to maintain perspective in the moments after you stub your toe hard.

 

[sneaky]

Seems like you haven’t looked at the FWP data. Couple things wrong with what you’re saying:

There are 3 different license you can apply for as a nonresident:

Deer combo
Elk combo
Big game combo

There are only 17,000 nonresident big game (elk) combo.

12,750 of those go for preference.

When you apply, you can select elk only but you’ve actually drawn the big game combo. The state doesn’t care whether you decided to pay for an extra deer permit or not.

Again, you didn’t read the FWP published numbers on their site or above, so I’ll list them all out here.

In 2021 for the big game combo:

309 applied with 3 points. 100% success
4218 applied with 2 points. 99.98% success
15595 applied with 1 point. 34.71% success

1 person didn’t draw BG combo with 2 points
10,182 people didn’t draw BG combo with 1 point

In 2021 for the elk combo:

101 applied with 3 points. 100% success
1104 applied with 2 points. 100% success
4604 applied with 1 point. 34.77% success

3,003 people didn’t draw elk combo with 1 point

So that leaves us 13,186 people that have at least 1 preference point that didn’t draw at the application time last year. There’s only 12,750 preference point tags for elk. See the problem now?


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I've hunted MT before and will be applying again this year... maybe. Just like you can't assume that everyone in your stats will be applying again as well. You're making a lot of assumptions on how many people will be applying again, the outfitter point program is going to further muddy the waters, and those who turn down their drawn general tags because they didn't get their LE choice. But, go ahead and think you've got it sorted. MT FWP doesn't even know what the hell is going on.

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[Scottf270]

I hate the whole "buying points" scam. I would prefer (I know, my opinion) that you had to apply for the tag and be ready to hunt if drawn. Lose your points if you "turn in" the tag.
This buying points crap just gums up the works with people trying to have points in every state. I want to hunt Montana every year and don't mind not drawing to another hunter who applies every year like me.

I hate worring there might be 5,000 other guys who can decide at any time, this is their year to hunt.
( Rant over, no disrespect to anyone).

 

[fatlander]

I've hunted MT before and will be applying again this year... maybe. Just like you can't assume that everyone in your stats will be applying again as well. You're making a lot of assumptions on how many people will be applying again, the outfitter point program is going to further muddy the waters, and those who turn down their drawn general tags because they didn't get their LE choice. But, go ahead and think you've got it sorted. MT FWP doesn't even know what the hell is going on.

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They’ll lose their points if they don’t apply.

In the past 10 years applications haven’t decreased, so I wouldn’t hold my breath.

That 13k that didn’t draw isn’t even counting the guys that are sitting on points that didn’t apply last year. Or the guys that’ll buy two since they’re hunting with outfitters.

I’ll make a bet with you, if you 1 point isn’t 0%, I’ll buy you a beer. You want to take the counter?


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[Scottf270]

It may get to the point that not buying a point and staying in the zero point category may have the best draw odds. Having points may be a once every 3 or 4 year draw situation.

 

[CMF]

You would not draw the tag every 3 years because there is a cap on NR licenses, but there is no cap on NR's with 3 points. In the not too distant future there will be more people with 3 points than available licenses. And then it is a completely random draw where one person could conceivably draw every 3 years, and another person could apply every year for 30 years and never draw. It negates the purpose of even having preference points.

Exactly