Montana FWP and Mule deer

[Scottf270]

My real complaint with FWP is they are painfully slow to react, if they react at all. I understand drought and winters happen. But they seem unaware of things we hunters see quickly.

They didn't recognize the shift of hunters to the east as deer populations dropped in the western half of the state. They kill far too many does. They don't have accurate population models or harvest data etc.

In my opinion, the FWP only job is to "manage" and "Protect" the resource.
(Yes, I put protect in caps)
They must be willing to quickly cut tags (pressure) as needed when changes to herd health occur. My fear is they are hesitant to cut there own fiscal throat by reducing tag revenue. They try to wait and hope for a miracle till it's too late, the damage is done.
Just once, I wish they were ahead of the curve.

 

[Loggerdude]

Most folks running the show are out of touch with reality. More study’s need conducted so they can come up with the same conclusion, more studying.

 

[johnsd16]

I’ve read most but not all of this thread and agree it’s all over the map what people want. I’ve hunted deer in Montana 8 of the last 10 years and it has fallen off in region 7 BIG TIME. I cannot even imagine how much it has been for the guys that have been there for 30-60yrs. The condition of the range was so bad in an area of region 7 we hunt we decided not to go back for a while. The terrain and deer numbers are appealing still but something needs to change.

First off, why do they not have mandatory reporting for every tag sold? I know I’ve seen some stuff about cost but other states do it and in this day and age it isn’t hard. If you have a tag, you must fill out an online report or you can’t apply or get a tag again. Then they actually have data.

Stop shooting muley does. At least for NR. If rural R and kids in MT want to shoot 1 doe then maybe in areas with private land or herds at/over objective.

Make people pick a unit or at least a region. No more hunting all over. You need to pick and area and learn it. The desirable areas will be hard to draw. At least do this for NR. Not good for me but I don’t think the current can continue.

Keep shooting whitetails. Make the buck tags different just like WY. If the areas we hunt went to unit draws and you had to pick WT or MD we would still go (MT gets our $$$) and you start cutting the WT back. Our group (3-5 adults and 3 kids) have killed 1 MD doe in 10yrs and it was a new guy that bought the wrong tag. We almost always kill 1-2 whitetail does a piece. I figure every one we take out of the system leaves more food for a MD to make it through the winter.

To me those are all palatable but what is happening now is sad. I’ve only been going there for 10yrs and I now tell my kids what it “was like in 2013”.

 

[mtblackdog]

Its a no brainer. Kill more cats and coyotes. Limit permits. Close the season Nov10. Stop killing so many does. And 4x4 rule statewide. The later more controversial. But ask the ranches that implement it willingly and they will tell you it works.

 

[ianpadron]

Its a no brainer. Kill more cats and coyotes. Limit permits. Close the season Nov10. Stop killing so many does. And 4x4 rule statewide. The later more controversial. But ask the ranches that implement it willingly and they will tell you it works.

You're going to need to provide data for that last claim.

Point restrictions do not work, in fact, they shift the population of bucks the opposite direction as intended. CO, WY, WA state all have mountains of data for you to sift through, as does MT FWP.

 

[ianpadron]

You must not have seen a previous post about wolves where multiple members on here said more guys hunting wolves wouldn't do much and is unrealistic because it costs too much....wtf. I agree with both points in this. I am close friends with a former biologist that worked on Big Horn Sheep. Went to do lamb counts with her and while talking about volunteering she said she had ZERO people volunteer for counts but if it is a release day for relocation or a picture op everybody wants to go. Be nice if hunters or some organizations would get as vocal about this stuff as they do Pint Nights, "hunter recruitment", and industry dbags promoting every opportunity to "fill the freezer" until tags have to be cut or eliminated in those hunts.

Bingo

 

[dirtytough]

You're going to need to provide data for that last claim.

Point restrictions do not work, in fact, they shift the population of bucks the opposite direction as intended. CO, WY, WA state all have mountains of data for you to sift through, as does MT FWP.

If that's true why does WA still have a point restriction? Why is WY implementing a point restriction this year? I would assume if WY had mountains of data that said they don't work they would not implement one.

 

[NDGuy]

The survey was overwhelmingly in support of keeping the same season structure (5 weeks and keep Thanksgiving in the mix).

Everything I have ever read about MT is that whenever the public gets asked about changes. The overwhelming majority doesn't want it to.

Until Joe Schmo in MT wants it, nothing will change.

 

[mtwarden]

We're a little stubborn that way; but if you mule deer numbers continue to remain low, I think they'll be some changes coming.

They'd have to really pry our 5 week season out of my cold hands, but could probably be convinced to start it (and end it) earlier keeping a full 5 weeks.

In my experience though, the rut seems to be pretty well over by the last full week (Thanksgiving) of the season.

Lots of other things to consider before changing season structure though- reduce/eliminate doe tags in certain areas; further liberalize the regs on whitetail harvest; separate whitetail & mule deer licenses for non-residents, etc

 

[Pony Soldier]

I remember a 4 pt limit in the Tobacco Root mtns in the 90s. The result was one of the largest populations of three point muleys.

I still think there is something disease related that needs to be looked at. When they died in the early 90s, we went from too many to barely any in 350, north end of 322, 318 and 350. It probably covered 215 but I only hunt the edges.

At that time there weren't any wolves and limited number of cats. The valleys/ gulches were filled with skeletons of all ages of deer including fawns. Given the size of the fawns it would indicate that it happened late June to early July. What was left has steadily diminished from 60 head in my field to none in the last 4 years.

I just read an article in Wyoming and their muley collapse. It did not include a range analysis by species or volume.

I think a more uniform test would look at all options not just proving one hypothesis. Our elk population which had been steady for over 20 years was reduced to 50% with one shoulder season. We didn't have an elk problem.

It's time to look seriously at these issues. No more muley doe tags, more bios in the field and make an alliance with the winter range and summer range ranchers as to population counts.

 

[ianpadron]

If that's true why does WA still have a point restriction? Why is WY implementing a point restriction this year? I would assume if WY had mountains of data that said they don't work they would not implement one.

That's a great question for the game departments in the states I mentioned. I'd bet it has something to do with public pressure...just like here in MT.

A good starting point is the paper "A Critical Review of Antler Point Regulations, Application, and Effectiveness" by a team of Wyoming bios...who conclude they don't work, even though they're one of the first restrictions sportsmen call for.

As mentioned above, antler restrictions lead to an abnormal amount of giant 2 and 3 point deer. I saw it first hand in WA state. The number of "trophy" deer actually decreases as bucks are killed the second they cross the point restriction threshold. This is well documented, and you can read all about it on the ol Google machine.

Feel free to reach out to any of the mule deer bios in MT and ask for their compiled data on Western state point restrictions... they've got a ton of it, and presented it all at the Region 1 meetings this Spring.

 

[mtblackdog]

You're going to need to provide data for that last claim.

Point restrictions do not work, in fact, they shift the population of bucks the opposite direction as intended. CO, WY, WA state all have mountains of data for you to sift through, as does MT FWP.

Like I said controversial. But I also have a wildlife management degree from Montana State and studied under Dr. Mackie and masters in Range Wildlife under Dr. Wambolt. So yeah I know the skewed data all to well. Trust me allowing mule deer to mature increases overall population. Im not talking trophy potential which with mule deer is highly variable and complicated without even taking genetics into scope. So basically what your (studies) boils down to is political and social pressured skewed data. I could go on and on. But if you want to read real data go through Mackie's work with a fine tooth comb.

 

[Devildogg]

Cut out the Minnesota and Wisconsin guys and you’ll have lots of deer.

 

[406huntermt]

Cut out the Minnesota and Wisconsin guys and you’ll have lots of deer.

Haha you forgot the whole state of Washington

 

[WCB]

Cut out the Minnesota and Wisconsin guys and you’ll have lots of deer.

Haha you forgot the whole state of Washington

And anywhere East of the Mississippi in general...and residents and deer hunting in general. The # of tags sold is the # of tags sold no matter where people are from.

 

[Devildogg]

I’m a guilty non resident too. I’m from ND it takes 3-5 yrs to draw a tag here to hunt so I put in for MT and drew a tag a couple years ago. I felt horrible for the residents of MT they are over run with out of staters.

 

[BDWMT]

End the over the counter unlimited rut permits. Limit general season to mid october to first week of November and limited permits the rest of November. No more anterless mule deer permits. Montana is the only state that you can buy a OTC mule deer tag and hunt for the next 3-1/2 months.

 

[ianpadron]

Like I said controversial. But I also have a wildlife management degree from Montana State and studied under Dr. Mackie and masters in Range Wildlife under Dr. Wambolt. So yeah I know the skewed data all to well. Trust me allowing mule deer to mature increases overall population. Im not talking trophy potential which with mule deer is highly variable and complicated without even taking genetics into scope. So basically what your (studies) boils down to is political and social pressured skewed data. I could go on and on. But if you want to read real data go through Mackie's work with a fine tooth comb.

I've never seen Mackie study anything but range ecology, forage, etc. with regards to mule deer.

If I'm missing some research on point restrictions leading to more deer as you claim, feel free to link it.

Like I mentioned, does in Region 1 are 100% pregnant every year, so more bucks on our landscape does absolutely zero from a population standpoint.

If we want more deer, we need more habitat and more does...a common theme in every Mackie paper I've ever seen...

Also wondering about this skewed data you allude to with regards to APR.

 

[ianpadron]

I’m a guilty non resident too. I’m from ND it takes 3-5 yrs to draw a tag here to hunt so I put in for MT and drew a tag a couple years ago. I felt horrible for the residents of MT they are over run with out of staters.

The good spots in MT don't have any issues with NRs, and they never will because they're steep, cold, and full of grizz. Past 3 seasons I haven't seen an NR plate and a total of 2 other hunters.

That's the main reason I'd like to see FWP tread lightly on their statewide management plan, different regions in this state may as well be on different planets in terms of factors affecting each herd.

The readily accessible Eastern MT mule deer are prime targets for out of staters (and lazy Region 1 and 2 hunters haha) but the mountain muleys are mostly in need of fewer whitetail deer on their winter range and fewer cougars.

You should feel zero guilt, "your" waterfowl in ND get the same treatment every fall from NRs, it is what it is.

 

[ianpadron]

I think some road decommissioning and/or more seasonal road closures by BLM and FS would make a difference as well. There are plenty of roads to drive for people who want to hunt that way, we could get rid of a few.....

Amen to that.