Montana FWP and Mule deer

[Hippie Steve]

So basically this survey shows that the majority of Resident Mule Deer hunters of MT have no idea that the herds are hurting and generally trophy quality is down. They just want to Mule Deer.

I believe the survey is what it is and mule deer populations fluctuate from year to year with an inherently amount of variables involved and I feel this thread just supports the fact that there is an inherently increasing amount of misinformation in the hunting community. My opinion.

 

[ianpadron]

I believe the survey is what it is and mule deer populations fluctuate from year to year with an inherently amount of variables involved and I feel this thread just supports the fact that there is an inherently increasing amount of misinformation in the hunting community. My opinion.

You're correct. Misinformation in the hunting community is rampant, and it does nothing but hurt our cause.

A quick stop in at any FWP big game meeting (or any state's wildlife agency meetings tbh) makes it painfully obvious that the majority of hunters simply have no idea what they're talking about, and don't care about the data. Period.

Ask the same guys here in MT complaining about herd numbers how much cat or wolf hunting they do, or how many hours they volunteer towards MDF or RMEF habitat projects. The answer is of course, zero.

The guys and gals who are TRULY invested in the resource, and spend more than a week a year caring and learning about these incredible animals, understand that data matters, trophy deer still exist, and FWP is actually doing a pretty damn good job.

Almost universally, the feedback at these meetings from older hunters, was "we want more and bigger bucks", and they want point restrictions, shorter seasons, fewer tags, etc to get there...while younger guys who tend to get after it harder and see plenty of big bucks (a generalization but true) were pushing for higher quotas on cats, and more liberal antlerless whitetail tags...you know, the stuff that actually works.

The dichotomy is important to note, and does give me hope that the new age of hunters is doing their homework instead of falling back on the same old curmudgeon mindset that everything is going to shit and someone better fix it (while doing nothing for the resource themselves).

 

[bigsky2]

I thought a good point was made on another forum. You could ask these same people if they think big horn sheep should be managed for opportunity and you would likely get the same results of this survey. Doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

 

[bigsky2]

Don't you guys think shorter seasons will actually put more pressure on the deer? And make any crowding issues significantly worse? Another thought, are we grazing more on public lands than before? I don't know how it was in the good old days but my perception is the best hunters are still consistently pulling big deer off of public land in Montana. That's not me, at least not yet but I wasn't blaming FWP for not seeing a ton of big bucks out east.

Maybe more pressure in a shorter window but there would be less harvest overall. There’s lots of people here that won’t shoot a buck unless they see it off the road during the rut.

 

[Scottf270]

If the number of hunters with tags stays the same, the number of deer killed will remain nearly the same regardless of season length.

Yes, some bucks killed by "stupid" rut behavior may survive, but most will still kill something to justify the hunt. They may even get more desperate due to having a shorter season.

If your trying to take human hunting out of the equation, reducing tags is the only way.

Doe tags should not be available at all unless herd is at objectives. Once at desired herd size, then manage does for desired buck to doe ratio.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

In region 3 we went from drowning in deer to nothing in 92. With nearly every day in the remote areas during season, I have not seen a buck of any kind in 6 years. However I have seen a mtn lion weekly. In 322, the last time I hunted there, all I saw were bloody wolf tracks. We used to see 300-400 deer a hunt. Many of the areas in the region need a ten year moratorium on mule deer hunting with sincere predator control to get things back into the correct proportions.

I do have a degree in wildlife management and the present management defies anything they taught in school or common sense.

I was in 322 for three days in July and a total of 12 days between September and October last year. During daylight hours I saw three small bucks in July, a couple small groups of does in September, then three 140s ish bucks and a group of eight does in October. All of them low and close to a main road cutting through the public. Saw a few more at night when moving camp but that’s about it.

I was mostly elk hunting but did some very extensive glassing. I was expecting to see significantly more deer. It was pretty eye opening just how bad it was. I saw an absolute s**t pile of whitetails in just about every alfalfa field on the way in and a LOT of grizzly bear sign in quite a few areas. Never personally saw a bear but talked to quite a few other hunters that were seeing them daily in a well known basin, including a guy that said he was bluff charged by a sow with cubs. Also met a guy who’s buddy had a 6x6 claimed by a bear overnight so he ended up not getting any meat off the bull.

They are in pretty bad shape when you see more whitetails in a single ag field than total mule deer over 15 days scouting and hunting.

 

[TylerTheTerrible]

I was in 322 for three days in July and a total of 12 days between September and October last year. During daylight hours I saw three small bucks in July, a couple small groups of does in September, then three 140s ish bucks and a group of eight does in October. All of them low and close to a main road cutting through the public. Saw a few more at night when moving camp but that’s about it.

I was mostly elk hunting but did some very extensive glassing. I was expecting to see significantly more deer. It was pretty eye opening just how bad it was. I saw an absolute s**t pile of whitetails in just about every alfalfa field on the way in and a LOT of grizzly bear sign in quite a few areas. Never personally saw a bear but talked to quite a few other hunters that were seeing them daily in a well known basin, including a guy that said he was bluff charged by a sow with cubs. Also met a guy who’s buddy had a 6x6 claimed by a bear overnight so he ended up not getting any meat off the bull.

They are in pretty bad shape when you see more whitetails in a single ag field than total mule deer over 15 days scouting and hunting.

322 gets a ton of pressure as I'm sure you know. It's an any deer unit on the general tag. Even so Region 3 mule deer population estimates are pretty stable and FWP estimates say more than 500 4pt+ mule deer were pulled out of that unit last year. Someone else is finding them.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

Oh yeah I’m not saying there’s no deer there at all. It’s a giant unit so I’m sure there’s areas with a good amount of deer. I’m just saying I was expecting to see quite a bit more in the area I was in. If I had gone there looking for deer instead of elk then I’m sure I’d have seen more but for the amount of time I spent in the area, I was surprised at how little incidental bump ins I had with deer. Without just coming out and saying the exact area I was in, I was around a well traveled gravel road on public between two mountain ranges. I think just about anyone that’s ever been there knows where I’m talking about. I kept expecting to see more deer and I didn’t. Felt like there was about a million and a half beef cows all throughout the area though.

 

[hunterjmj]

I'd be for shifting the season but keeping it 5 weeks, eliminating mule deer doe permits and killing more cow elk. Like others have said, once it goes draw we won't get it back. I just want to hunt deer each year, let my kids hunt deer each year and every once in a while kill a nice buck. I do like the opportunity to hunt idea and obviously it's fun killing a nice big buck but that's not everyone's idea of a successful hunt. I'd love to see mule deer back were they were when I was a kid.

 

[Jon Boy]

I just don't even understand this discussion. Cut the does tags. Freaking easy button just effing do it already.

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[MT257]

. I'd love to see mule deer back were they were when I was a kid.

That will never happen.

 

[Jon Boy]

I think we can all agree we could do absolutely nothing to the season structure and just eliminate doe tags and would see an improvement.

How are managers so retarded to even put this survey out? It's absolutely obvious. Take a drive on the custer from 2017-2022 during November and you would have seen dozens of camps with multiple mule deer does hanging. One camp i saw 8 mule deer does in. Like wtf is wrong with you in the first place but how can that even be legal. And now fwp is acting oblivious and handing out surveys

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[Pony Soldier]

322 gets a ton of pressure as I'm sure you know. It's an any deer unit on the general tag. Even so Region 3 mule deer population estimates are pretty stable and FWP estimates say more than 500 4pt+ mule deer were pulled out of that unit last year. Someone else is finding them.

Maybe south of I-90 but not north of I-90. There is nothing left and they still give out 50 doe tags.

 

[WCB]

Ask the same guys here in MT complaining about herd numbers how much cat or wolf hunting they do, or how many hours they volunteer towards MDF or RMEF habitat projects. The answer is of course, zero.

You must not have seen a previous post about wolves where multiple members on here said more guys hunting wolves wouldn't do much and is unrealistic because it costs too much....wtf. I agree with both points in this. I am close friends with a former biologist that worked on Big Horn Sheep. Went to do lamb counts with her and while talking about volunteering she said she had ZERO people volunteer for counts but if it is a release day for relocation or a picture op everybody wants to go. Be nice if hunters or some organizations would get as vocal about this stuff as they do Pint Nights, "hunter recruitment", and industry dbags promoting every opportunity to "fill the freezer" until tags have to be cut or eliminated in those hunts.

 

[Jaden Bales]

I think @robby denning is going to come out with some more science based information on the topic, but I think one thing FWP cannot manage is drought. And while I’m not 100% privy to the doe hunting situation, I think it’s worth while to look at the drough graph over the last 23 years.

The best recent years of hunting, and of population growth, occurred 2011 until around 2020, maybe 2021 depending who you ask. And those correlated perfectly with some good moisture and not a lot of drought (minus one year).

 

[S.Clancy]

We hunt 322 (previously a bunch of units) a couple days every year for elk. Last year, in one day, we saw over 70 mulies, nothing big but lots of bucks. The next day, in a different spot but still 322, no mulies, but killed 2 elk.

 

[S.Clancy]

I think @robby denning is going to come out with some more science based information on the topic, but I think one thing FWP cannot manage is drought. And while I’m not 100% privy to the doe hunting situation, I think it’s worth while to look at the drough graph over the last 23 years.

The best recent years of hunting, and of population growth, occurred 2011 until around 2020, maybe 2021 depending who you ask. And those correlated perfectly with some good moisture and not a lot of drought (minus one year).

View attachment 545442

FWP gets blamed for a lot that isn't their fault. I think a big part of the outcry is the 2020-2021 drought really hammered deer in SE MT, worse than I've ever seen including 2011 winter. That winter was tough, but was worse in northern R7, deer did much better in the SE portion. The drought crushed deer in the SE, some areas are completely devoid of deer. With 2 yrs of good precip and low numbers range conditions should improve enough to produce some big fawn crops.

That's not to say FWP couldnt improve, like trying to get some actual decent harvest data through mandatory reporting for one and managing deer in Eastern MT in smaller chunks vs R7 wide. That area could be split into 8-10 units pretty easy instead of managing everything the same.

 

[TylerTheTerrible]

Oh yeah I’m not saying there’s no deer there at all. It’s a giant unit so I’m sure there’s areas with a good amount of deer. I’m just saying I was expecting to see quite a bit more in the area I was in. If I had gone there looking for deer instead of elk then I’m sure I’d have seen more but for the amount of time I spent in the area, I was surprised at how little incidental bump ins I had with deer. Without just coming out and saying the exact area I was in, I was around a well traveled gravel road on public between two mountain ranges. I think just about anyone that’s ever been there knows where I’m talking about. I kept expecting to see more deer and I didn’t. Felt like there was about a million and a half beef cows all throughout the area though.

I know the spot. I usually see very few mulies from the road there unless it's the more northern section... very close to where you see the WTs. There's also the CWD problem FWP is trying to manage there. They extended the hunt on WTs 2 years ago for basically anyone with a deer tag valid anywhere in the state to try to curb the breakout.

 

[Hippie Steve]

Hunters need to apply for tags and plan hunts based on the TERRAIN they want to hunt. Some states have easy access and some have difficult access regardless if the tag is LE or OTC (MT closes most of its roads during hunting season to make the hunting better). If you want to hunt the easy front country with everyone else, then do it but know the possible outcomes of that. Same goes for the remote country. The animals of quality and quantity are there for those that chose to hunt properly and hunt hard and success happens when you can hunt your terrain EVERY YEAR not sit around a wait. My opinion.

 

[S.Clancy]

Hunters need to apply for tags and plan hunts based on the TERRAIN they want to hunt. Some states have easy access and some have difficult access regardless if the tag is LE or OTC (MT closes most of its roads during hunting season to make the hunting better). If you want to hunt the easy front country with everyone else, then do it but know the possible outcomes of that. Same goes for the remote country. The animals of quality and quantity are there for those that chose to hunt properly and hunt hard and success happens when you can hunt your terrain EVERY YEAR not sit around a wait. My opinion.

I think some road decommissioning and/or more seasonal road closures by BLM and FS would make a difference as well. There are plenty of roads to drive for people who want to hunt that way, we could get rid of a few.....