Mono Wound Channels vs Match Bullets

[PistolPete]

OK, yall got me on board with the smaller match bullets; gonna shoot them this fall. The evidence is just too overwhelming, and I'm confident they'll work for me just like they have for all of you. I'm even working on a 223/77 2200 fps load for my younger kids to hunt with - should be the lightest recoiling 200 yd deer gun around.

So, out of curiosity, I've heard that copper bullets produce less tissue damage than match bullets (and I believe it). But how much less? To eliminate variables, let's compare a TTSX to an TMK. What caliber and weight TTSX would it take to produce the wounding of a 77 TMK, impact velocities equal (say 2200 fps)?

I'm working on getting 223s legalized for deer in a certain eastern state where I'm a biologist for the state agency, and this forum has given me TONS of valuable information to that end. I have a large and growing presentation based on the 223 thread.

Thanks,

Pete

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

To eliminate variables, let's compare a TTSX to an TMK. What caliber and weight TTSX would it take to produce the wounding of a 77 TMK, impact velocities equal (say 2200 fps)?

I don't believe any non-fragmenting mono will produce that kind of wound channel regardless of caliber, that isn't how those monos work. They're a high speed broadhead basically. (Thus a poor option if you are a rear lung shooter for example).

There are petal shedding monos, powdered lead free, and tumbling monos that will do various different things than petal peeling monos (ie non-fragmenting). The powdered likely would be closest to a fragmenting match bullet. The others are just a different mechanism and you have to acknowledge they are different and use them differently IF you want to use them. They aren't apples to apples.

 

[WI-Carcosa]

The above post covers it well. DRT offers the non lead fragmenting bullets and PVA Cayuga is the tumbling bullet.
Here is an exit hole of the “best” mono wound channel I have seen and it pales in comparison to fragmenting bullets of a small caliber. 300wsm trophy copper 3000 mv, 2930ish impact velocity at 40 yards. I would be curious for one of the folks on here that have a hot rod rifle hurling monos at 3400 fps and what wound channels they get. I still doubt they make channels like a fragmenting bullet.

 

[SC HUNTER]

Barnes ttsx have to have speed for them to work effectively. A 77tmk is devastating out of a 223. I've shot barnes ttsx ammo before and they work but their not a tmk by any means.

 

[wind gypsy]

The above post covers it well. DRT offers the non lead fragmenting bullets and PVA Cayuga is the tumbling bullet.
Here is an exit hole of the “best” mono wound channel I have seen and it pales in comparison to fragmenting bullets of a small caliber. 300wsm trophy copper 3000 mv, 2930ish impact velocity at 40 yards. I would be curious for one of the folks on here that have a hot rod rifle hurling monos at 3400 fps and what wound channels they get. I still doubt they make channels like a fragmenting bullet.

That's not exactly a "broadhead" like wound. Did you square up a rib bone to open things up like that?

 

[handwerk]

I've been very happy with our results shooting TTSX and LRX's in 10 different cartridges.
I prefer not to ruin a bunch of meat and have had no problem killing with the Barnes......no masses of bloodshot meat and no drama..I will say I don't shoot beyond 500 yards.

 

[WI-Carcosa]

That's not exactly a "broadhead" like wound. Did you square up a rib bone to open things up like that?

I must have hit scapula or numerous as this was quartering to IIRC. Obliterated the heart on its way through. I shot two does on this hunt and the other one I hit the spine and made a good size hole (of course I forgot to photograph that). I have had some great results with monos but only in the most ideal conditions (close range, hitting bone, high fps). Still not as good as frangible bullets, but I have used a lot of monos for WI whitetail as we hunt small properties with shots 50 and under and need to anchor deer on the spot so aim points are usually high shoulder for brachial plexus, CNS, or the front shoulder ball joint. We used to use Hornady SST and the wounds were way too much for that shot placement for our liking.

 

[Koda_]

So, out of curiosity, I've heard that copper bullets produce less tissue damage than match bullets (and I believe it). But how much less? To eliminate variables, let's compare a TTSX to an TMK.

I cant compare to a TMK but here is the meat loss I had on the front shoulder of a deer with a .223 55gn TTSX. The bullet was a pass thru with a tiny .223 hole on the entry side and a perfect near .5" hole on the exit side indicating full mushroom as designed.

 

[Macintosh]

Thats from a ttsx? That doesnt look anything like what Ive experienced with ttsx’s. Ive shot or seen shot a dozen plus deer and deer sized critters with ttsx bullets from 3006, 270, 7mm08, and never seen even remotely close to that much damage. I specifically moved to monos because the nbts and sst’s Id been using were destroying too much meat. I generally see a caliber-sized entrance, and on deer an exit about the size of a golf ball, occasionally up to the size of a tennis ball—but have never seen bloodshot meat more than a very short distance (like 1/2” or so) from the actual bullet channel. Thats the whole reason I use them, is I DONT want a wound that big. Im extremely confidant saying the 223 tmk/eldm wounds Ive seen numerous photos of on this site are at least double if not triple the size of the wound my 3006 or 270 makes with a ttsx at or above 2800fps impact (ie very close range).

 

[Blacktail247]

Wow. That is not what I would have expected to see from a ttsx. Has that been typical from the 223 and the Barnes for you?

 

[eamyrick]

I’ve shot my last 4 deer with TTSX out of a 30-06 and they all had plenty of internal disruption and died almost immediately. 3 bang flops. The 20 before that were with Hornandy SSTs. Also all bang flops. Projectiles of any type out of a high powered rifle kill stuff pretty well.

168 TTSX Exit and Internal Mess

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

This thread wasn’t another “do monos work”, they do just fine if you use them appropriately. The OP was asking about matching a specific wound type which outside of the DRT bullets I don’t think is a reasonable expectation.

 

[Koda_]

Thats from a ttsx? That doesnt look anything like what Ive experienced with ttsx’s. Ive shot or seen shot a dozen plus deer and deer sized critters with ttsx bullets from 3006, 270, 7mm08, and never seen even remotely close to that much damage.

Wow. That is not what I would have expected to see from a ttsx. Has that been typical from the 223 and the Barnes for you?

(replying to both)

confirm, 223 cal 55gn TTSX.
Now to be fair that was a close shot about 50yds and it was a rather small blacktail. It is the only time Ive ever used a 223 hunting so I don't have more experience with that bullet and caliber. (Im not really on the 223 wagon but its more than enough for deer)
I still got some meat off that shoulder after cutting out the bloodshot area so it wasn't a total loss of front shoulder but I was surprised at the wound channel for such a tiny bullet so I took pictures.

 

[Macintosh]

@pods8 (Rugged Stitching) agree, I think the question was more to give ammunition to “ if a 3006 (or whatever other cartridge), with a mono is totally OK, then why isn’t a smaller cartridge with a more damaging bullet also OK because they create a similar wound”. I get that.

I really don’t have much first-hand experience with a 223, and I don’t really have a positive opinion about fish and wildlife agencies mandating minimum cartridge sizes in the first place, but IF an agency was to mandate a minimum it does seem logical to me to gravitate to a minimum that is not contingent on a specific nuanced and less-common bullet type, but rather is sufficient with virtually any bullet. I’d rather do away with the cartridge restriction altogether, than create a new mandate. It seems this is generally a self-enforcing thing anyway, especially given the rampant magnum-itis I see everywhere.

 

[Macintosh]

@Koda_ did you take out a bunch of bone with that shot? I don’t have much experience with a 223, but having shot a decent number of animals with copper monos at extremely close range, between 5 and 20 yards, I’ve never seen damage like that from any of those bullets. Even at that short range, I get a caliber sized entrance and at most maybe a tennis ball on the offside, and the wound channel still only has bloodshot meat half or maybe 3/4 of an inch around the hole. The rest of it is perfectly edible, with zero sign of damage. I’m wondering if the shot you pictured above has so much damage because you hit bone, and the bone fragments acted like bullet fragments, slicing apart the area around the temporary stretch cavity while it was stretched? Anyone who has used these bullets much, have you ever seen that happen?

What I will say is that the folks here who are using the 223 fragmenting bullets I have seen them equate the permanent cavity in the wound channel to a soda can, size-wise. I haven’t done exhaustive autopsies but the monos that I have used (again nearly all of them at pretty close range, I would say none of them below 2500 ft./s and most much higher) the wound channels have all been smaller than that. My gut reaction is that the wound is also shaped differently, my inclination is to say that the maximum size of the wound channel on most of the deer I’ve shot with a mono is part of the exit, rather than inside the vitals of animal, but this is not based on measurement, its only my recollection.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I mainly use barnes, sometimes you see blood/froth in the intermuscular tissues (esp between the shoulder and main body) that could look like a shoulder is thrashed but its on the surface and the underlying meat isn't thrashed.

 

[Koda_]

I mainly use barnes, sometimes you see blood/froth in the intermuscular tissues (esp between the shoulder and main body) that could look like a shoulder is thrashed but its on the surface and the underlying meat isn't thrashed.

I recall this is closer to what happened. That deer was 2 seasons ago so just recalling memory now at this point but i still got some meat off that entry shoulder.

 

[Koda_]

@Koda_ did you take out a bunch of bone with that shot? I don’t have much experience with a 223, but having shot a decent number of animals with copper monos at extremely close range, between 5 and 20 yards, I’ve never seen damage like that from any of those bullets. Even at that short range, I get a caliber sized entrance and at most maybe a tennis ball on the offside, and the wound channel still only has bloodshot meat half or maybe 3/4 of an inch around the hole. The rest of it is perfectly edible, with zero sign of damage. I’m wondering if the shot you pictured above has so much damage because you hit bone, and the bone fragments acted like bullet fragments, slicing apart the area around the temporary stretch cavity while it was stretched?

The bullet broke one rib on the exit side.
Looking at pics, i recall slightly quartering to me, a heart shot. Entry low on the front shoulder, passed thru the heart, exited just behind the rear shoulder thru the ribs.
Pods8 description above is accurate, the bloodshot was mostly between the entry shoulder and body. Most of the meat loss was on the ribs, discarded most all of the rib meat on this entry side.

Entry hole was super tiny. 223 tiny.
Exit holes was nice round half inch at most.







Never thought id need my wound pics but its fun to remember the old hunts...

 

[Macintosh]

Ok, the original pics looked like a lot more bloodshot than that. It’s still surprisingly good damage and more than I expect to see. My larger cartridges dont usually make any more damage than that—a bigger exit than you usually, but still less damage than you got in the first picture in post #8.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thats from a ttsx? That doesnt look anything like what Ive experienced with ttsx’s. Ive shot or seen shot a dozen plus deer and deer sized critters with ttsx bullets from 3006, 270, 7mm08, and never seen even remotely close to that much damage. I specifically moved to monos because the nbts and sst’s Id been using were destroying too much meat. I generally see a caliber-sized entrance, and on deer an exit about the size of a golf ball, occasionally up to the size of a tennis ball—but have never seen bloodshot meat more than a very short distance (like 1/2” or so) from the actual bullet channel. Thats the whole reason I use them, is I DONT want a wound that big. Im extremely confidant saying the 223 tmk/eldm wounds Ive seen numerous photos of on this site are at least double if not triple the size of the wound my 3006 or 270 makes with a ttsx at or above 2800fps impact (ie very close range).

Wow. That is not what I would have expected to see from a ttsx. Has that been typical from the 223 and the Barnes for you?

You’re just seeing blood in the facia- that’s not destroyed tissue.