Mil is SUPERIOR

[Justin Crossley]

Or just dial 2 past the 3.5 mil mark...no idea why a guy would count 7 clicks

I get what you're saying for sure.

This photo below shows a typical mil turret (at least similar to all I've used). In the heat of the moment, I have seen people dial to the wrong "side" of the numbered mark. Hopefully, that makes sense what I'm saying?



Because one mil represents a much larger adjustment than one moa, you are off by a lot more if you make that mistake vs doing the same thing with moa.

Again, I'm not saying this makes moa better. I'm personally in the camp that it doesn't matter and I continue to use both moa and mil in my scopes. I think there is value in learning all you can about one or the other and sticking with it but I don't think one is truly better than the other in all instances.

 

[Molon Labe]

mil is superior.
Chevy is superior.
Mathews is superior.

Fight me.

 

[WCB]

I get what you're saying for sure.

This photo below shows a typical mil turret (at least similar to all I've used). In the heat of the moment, I have seen people dial to the wrong "side" of the numbered mark. Hopefully, that makes sense what I'm saying?

View attachment 405151

Because one mil represents a much larger adjustment than one moa, you are off by a lot more if you make that mistake vs doing the same thing with moa.

Again, I'm not saying this makes moa better. I'm personally in the camp that it doesn't matter and I continue to use both moa and mil in my scopes. I think there is value in learning all you can about one or the other and sticking with it but I don't think one is truly better than the other in all instances.

I agree on not caring what someone uses...IMO if you know it and it works for you whatever. I've seen people dial wrong for sure but that is user error not system error. As far as the turret photo like my previous statement....if a guy can't count to 3 see the 3.5 mark and move 2 more clicks its not the systems fault. But some people just are not cut out for stressful situations.

 

[DMTJAGER]

Just my .2c worth. I am admittedly a novice long distance 101 shooter. My budget simply didn't allow for a scope in the Nightforce/Leupold VX5 or VX6 let alone MKVI price range, so I opted for a used LNIB Trijicon Credo HDX.
I am devoting as much time as I can to mastering wind estimation as I have already invested in a good LRF so wind estimation is undoubtedly going to be my most difficult hurdle to overcome and master.

As far as MOA VS MILs I took several months prior to buying my Credo HDX to give both a long hard look and I personably my novice mind couldn't come up with one being clearly superior to the other. As I had spent over 30 years using MOA scopes I stayed with MOA.

 

[chaser_2332]

Why?

Biggest reason is it’s so polarizing it’s s ford/Chevy debate and I’ve drawn my line i the sand! But in all reality i like the smaller numbers and 10ths over fractions. My last 6 match barrel have all pretty been close to 6.7mils to 1000yards. 6.7 is easier for me to remember vs 24.25moa

 

[Lawnboi]

If you put two guys together, one a MIL guy the other a MOA, they will argue till the end of time and when it's all over, they are both right. It's what you are more familiar with. For older shooters switching from one to the other can be a little confusing at first not to mention the cost of switching scopes. For beginners, go out and try both. Do you think in yards or meter, depending on which one, you will be better choosing the one that goes with how you think.

The difference is my round is going down range using a mil/mph gun wind call by the time you find your 15mph wind hold on your chart with 6 columns, or tap it into your solver whether it be phone, kestrel or rangefinder. That’s the difference.
Yards, meters, inches, centimeters, it dosnt matter.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

The difference is my round is going down range using a mil/mph gun wind call by the time you find your 15mph wind hold on your chart with 6 columns, or tap it into your solver whether it be phone, kestrel or rangefinder. That’s the difference.
Yards, meters, inches, centimeters, it dosnt matter.

Ur prolly right, never been there. what I do know is if there are 15MPH winds my ass is staying out of it. I HATE wind. HATE it.

 

[XLR]

Ur prolly right, never been there. what I do know is if there are 15MPH winds my ass is staying out of it. I HATE wind. HATE it.

That is the best answer I have heard hahaha!

 

[Wacko]

I like the discussion. Some people will argue anything.....

I personally have both Mil and MOA scopes....neither one is superior.

To the OP thinking in "clicks" is the first mistake with using MOA, or Mils for that matter.....1.3 mils or 3.25 moa take the same number of "clicks" to get there! Doesn't that just blow your mind?? Think in MOA period...if using MOA...most scopes are labeled with each MOA, 1/2 moa, and/or individual .25 moa....easy peasy...600 yards let's say is 12.5 moa....dial to 12 and the .5.......I'm not counting "clicks"...really why bother?

The only time counting clicks matters is a tactical scenario. Complete light discipline at night.

As far as resale, what do competitors use....who cares?? Most are using what they do just for commonality with the other shooters. Makes info transfer much easier. Not because one really, I mean really, is superior...but all the cool kids are using them!

Bottom line as has been hinted at.....be proficient with whatever system you use. They both work just fine!!

 

[oldskool67]

Back to back World War champs don’t need to use the metric system

 

[Stinky Coyote]

mil is superior for what? this is a forum within the backpacking hunting section ya?

when you gotta throw that pack down and send it on your ram at 600 yards before he rolls over the top you'll have a hard time beating a guy with a speed dial turret and knows his windage in inches for typical wind speeds.... range, dial to the range, hold into the wind and send it...very quick, very simple, that is the best formula for hunting

for target disciplines anything goes...make it as complicated and gizmo intensive as you want

but for hunting to 600...there is a far faster simpler way to set up and get it done, the speed dial turret set middle of your elevation temp ranges putting you out no more than a click or two at your max range (still kill zone from antelope to bighorns), 10 mph wind hold in inches for 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards (4 numbers in a decal under eye flip cap or on side of scope tube to memorize)... 3", 6", 12" and 18") makes for very quick field calcs and you simply range, dial to range, you've likely been paying attention to wind all day and you can flop down over that pack and send it to kill zone likely twice as fast as the guy set up for some target discipline and he will do it solo as well, all you need is a rangefinder that spits out range...nothing else, still haven't seen anything faster or more 'hunt' friendly/effective...go beyond 600 routinely though and then can see the need for finer data and set up

range 450 yards, dial to 4.5, wind approx. 5 mph, hold into wind about 5"....send it, watch ram fall

range 575 yards, dial to 5.75, wind 15 mph, quick math it and hold into wind a about 2 1/2' feet and send it, watch ram fall

not much is quicker than paying attention to wind while you're hunting and knowing 4 key 10 mph holds which is all that's required as it's not a thing inside 300, just hold a couple inches into a nasty crosswind and you're good for 300 or less, dead critter, and mathing 5 mph increments and 25 yard increments from those 4 key numbers is super simple and super fast

also, the guy who's practiced with whatever system he chooses will be more effective than guys who aren't...but if you have two guys practiced going head to head, the guy who chooses the simplest system will be the fastest to dead ram and there's nothing simpler than the outlined set up here for 0-600 yard hunting

not easy to sell a bunch of expensive gear though if you keep it simple like that, watch out for the marketing machines telling you all you need if you wanna be able to hunt out to 600 yards, there's a few ways to skin the cat, learn about them all and then see what is best for you

they should have a 0-600 yard prs division, no charts or ballistic programs allowed, only a rangefinder that doesn't even do angle comp and that's it...you know...like real hunting situations for solo backcountry hunters haha, getting the elevation right being the easy part, small part knowing how to visualize true horizontal distance but the bigger part would be how well you know your wind and quick math of about 4 memorized numbers...call it the 'best of the west' division lol, or just the 'hunting' division, heck maybe even funner would be the 'dead battery' division and you can't even use a rangefinder....that sounds super fun actually

 

[Shraggs]

If you put two guys together, one a MIL guy the other a MOA, they will argue till the end of time and when it's all over, they are both right. It's what you are more familiar with. For older shooters switching from one to the other can be a little confusing at first not to mention the cost of switching scopes. For beginners, go out and try both. Do you think in yards or meter, depending on which one, you will be better choosing the one that goes with how you think.

I don’t intend this as a correction, cause I get your point.

May I offer, it’s not yards or meters - it’s not linear. Moa or mils are both arc or angular measurements, a fraction of a radius from your position.

In that sense, calculations are base 10 for mils vs base 4 for moa.

I switched last year to mils. I think with a good app doesn’t matter dialing for distance. If you need to make a shot in 30 seconds, that’s when I was able to do base 10 in my head quicker after ranging without app. Ha dope taped to gun works too.

As I learn, the wind is the challenge, for me. But I have taken to base 10 or mils and wind brackets way easier. But as this thread shows even that has differences in how you get there.

 

[Marbles]

For what exactly? As an engineer I’ll admit that the metric systems allows someone to be a bit lazy as they are doing some analysis, which I would argue is not a beneficial aspect, but it in no way guarantees or creates better results. That’s also why I qualified my statement with the height example, there is no difference between saying 6 feet tall or 1.8 meters, it’s all just a ruler when it comes down to it

The human brain has a limited bandwidth, outside of school, anyone who wants to wast that bandwidth using less ergonomic systems is either not working with critical systems in real time.

It is just a ruler, but if you cannot rapidly apply the measured value while under dures the value is meaningless. If you miss a critical data point because your brain is using a more cumbersome system to "not be lazy" you have prepared to fail. In some settings (military for mil/moa, medical for in/cm) those failures can result in terrible outcomes.

 

[Kurts86]

At the end of the day they are just units. My entire world has been dual dimensioned. In engineering school we would take thermodynamics test that were half in imperial units and half in metric. When I was running competitively we would run metric distance races and then get mile splits from our coach. I just build a manufacturing site where the building is spaced out entirely in imperial units but the equipment and production is all metric. I multiply or divide by 25.4 at least a dozen times a day to convert inches and mm. I’m indifferent to understanding units in general.

The biggest fundamental advantage to mils as used in optics is they are base 10 numbers instead of fractions. MILs definitely make for easier math on MPH x distance out of random luck but not for any intentional reason. Being that wind calls are the hardest part of long range dope I can see why people value simplifying a system but experience and documented dope will rule the day rather than unit choice. Regardless I’m going to have a hard dope card when hunting, usually a custom turret for a given hunt altitude and expected temperatures and at least 2 devices that are ballistic computers between apps, rangefinders and wind meter/kestrel.

Most serious PRS competitors and long range rifle trainers use MILs but that’s just a critical mass function. At some point everyone has to agree on a common technical language or the proportion gets high enough that almost everyone switches over. If you want to seek out training today for long range rifle work they are most likely going to teach in MILs.

For hunting sake I don’t think it matters but I use a 200 yard zero, don’t really shoot past 500 yards and will quickly reduce my max range for shots in any amount of cross wind.

I’d bet 90%+ of hunters are using moa and that’s the majority of the offerings in sub $1k SFP hunting centric optics. That market flips at $1500 to very MIL centric with the more long range offerings.

There are definitely scopes I like the reticle design better and some I like the MOA reticle more so that does factor in. With the current offerings on the NXS 2.5-10 I’ll take MOAR over MIL-R but on the NX8 I’ll take MIL-C over MOAR.

 

[Lawnboi]

mil is superior for what? this is a forum within the backpacking hunting section ya?

when you gotta throw that pack down and send it on your ram at 600 yards before he rolls over the top you'll have a hard time beating a guy with a speed dial turret and knows his windage in inches for typical wind speeds.... range, dial to the range, hold into the wind and send it...very quick, very simple, that is the best formula for hunting

for target disciplines anything goes...make it as complicated and gizmo intensive as you want

but for hunting to 600...there is a far faster simpler way to set up and get it done, the speed dial turret set middle of your elevation temp ranges putting you out no more than a click or two at your max range (still kill zone from antelope to bighorns), 10 mph wind hold in inches for 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards (4 numbers in a decal under eye flip cap or on side of scope tube to memorize)... 3", 6", 12" and 18") makes for very quick field calcs and you simply range, dial to range, you've likely been paying attention to wind all day and you can flop down over that pack and send it to kill zone likely twice as fast as the guy set up for some target discipline and he will do it solo as well, all you need is a rangefinder that spits out range...nothing else, still haven't seen anything faster or more 'hunt' friendly/effective...go beyond 600 routinely though and then can see the need for finer data and set up

range 450 yards, dial to 4.5, wind approx. 5 mph, hold into wind about 5"....send it, watch ram fall

range 575 yards, dial to 5.75, wind 15 mph, quick math it and hold into wind a about 2 1/2' feet and send it, watch ram fall

not much is quicker than paying attention to wind while you're hunting and knowing 4 key 10 mph holds which is all that's required as it's not a thing inside 300, just hold a couple inches into a nasty crosswind and you're good for 300 or less, dead critter, and mathing 5 mph increments and 25 yard increments from those 4 key numbers is super simple and super fast

also, the guy who's practiced with whatever system he chooses will be more effective than guys who aren't...but if you have two guys practiced going head to head, the guy who chooses the simplest system will be the fastest to dead ram and there's nothing simpler than the outlined set up here for 0-600 yard hunting

not easy to sell a bunch of expensive gear though if you keep it simple like that, watch out for the marketing machines telling you all you need if you wanna be able to hunt out to 600 yards, there's a few ways to skin the cat, learn about them all and then see what is best for you

they should have a 0-600 yard prs division, no charts or ballistic programs allowed, only a rangefinder that doesn't even do angle comp and that's it...you know...like real hunting situations for solo backcountry hunters haha, getting the elevation right being the easy part, small part knowing how to visualize true horizontal distance but the bigger part would be how well you know your wind and quick math of about 4 memorized numbers...call it the 'best of the west' division lol, or just the 'hunting' division, heck maybe even funner would be the 'dead battery' division and you can't even use a rangefinder....that sounds super fun actually

I’m doing the same thing without guessing inches on target, just as fast and having a solid aim point not using Kentucky windage, with a mph gun number that I also use in competition. Don’t assume guys shooting competitions are setting up the weather station every shot either.

What is being alluded to here is a system that is fast, and accurate and your here saying just guess on your hold. Unless you can judge 4 inches at 600 yards through a scope by just guessing. Having a solid aim point also makes hitting easier.

I’m not saying you have to use mils but let’s not go back to just winging it. Yea it works sometimes but adds a level of stress and error that is no longer needed with new ideas.

 

[ID_Matt]

mil is superior for what? this is a forum within the backpacking hunting section ya?

when you gotta throw that pack down and send it on your ram at 600 yards before he rolls over the top you'll have a hard time beating a guy with a speed dial turret and knows his windage in inches for typical wind speeds.... range, dial to the range, hold into the wind and send it...very quick, very simple, that is the best formula for hunting

for target disciplines anything goes...make it as complicated and gizmo intensive as you want

but for hunting to 600...there is a far faster simpler way to set up and get it done, the speed dial turret set middle of your elevation temp ranges putting you out no more than a click or two at your max range (still kill zone from antelope to bighorns), 10 mph wind hold in inches for 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards (4 numbers in a decal under eye flip cap or on side of scope tube to memorize)... 3", 6", 12" and 18") makes for very quick field calcs and you simply range, dial to range, you've likely been paying attention to wind all day and you can flop down over that pack and send it to kill zone likely twice as fast as the guy set up for some target discipline and he will do it solo as well, all you need is a rangefinder that spits out range...nothing else, still haven't seen anything faster or more 'hunt' friendly/effective...go beyond 600 routinely though and then can see the need for finer data and set up

range 450 yards, dial to 4.5, wind approx. 5 mph, hold into wind about 5"....send it, watch ram fall

range 575 yards, dial to 5.75, wind 15 mph, quick math it and hold into wind a about 2 1/2' feet and send it, watch ram fall

not much is quicker than paying attention to wind while you're hunting and knowing 4 key 10 mph holds which is all that's required as it's not a thing inside 300, just hold a couple inches into a nasty crosswind and you're good for 300 or less, dead critter, and mathing 5 mph increments and 25 yard increments from those 4 key numbers is super simple and super fast

also, the guy who's practiced with whatever system he chooses will be more effective than guys who aren't...but if you have two guys practiced going head to head, the guy who chooses the simplest system will be the fastest to dead ram and there's nothing simpler than the outlined set up here for 0-600 yard hunting

not easy to sell a bunch of expensive gear though if you keep it simple like that, watch out for the marketing machines telling you all you need if you wanna be able to hunt out to 600 yards, there's a few ways to skin the cat, learn about them all and then see what is best for you

they should have a 0-600 yard prs division, no charts or ballistic programs allowed, only a rangefinder that doesn't even do angle comp and that's it...you know...like real hunting situations for solo backcountry hunters haha, getting the elevation right being the easy part, small part knowing how to visualize true horizontal distance but the bigger part would be how well you know your wind and quick math of about 4 memorized numbers...call it the 'best of the west' division lol, or just the 'hunting' division, heck maybe even funner would be the 'dead battery' division and you can't even use a rangefinder....that sounds super fun actually

Hold "about 2.5 feet" sounds like kentucky windage to me.... I don't see how guessing 2.5 feet at 575 yards is any quicker/better than actually holding a spot on your reticle, about 1.5 mils using a gun number of 6 mph.

Real hunting situations... like I am going to leave my angle compensating rangefinder at home and only use a duplex scope because that is what real solo backcountry diy public land otc fair chase hunters do.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

lol, you're gonna get the angle of the wind call correct? will you hit an inch closer than me? maybe, I've done this in the field with a target gear buddy who competes high level f-class etc. and nothing he runs isn't full custom and capable of the tiniest groups at ridiculous distances, charts, etc. he's also hardcore killer, and I take my factory rig, factory ammo, just under sub-moa, and so far out to 700 yards I'm closer to the bull half the time, only because I always shoot first and I tell him if I held too much or too little, then I watch the chart consulting etc., where I ranged, dialled, held my wind and shot very quickly, it's just a fun competition throwing the packs down and simulating, we both in proverbial kill zone, but on a 700 yard no wind I was dead center, he spined that sheep rock lol, I'm there first in a fraction of the time...tell me what's hunting friendly...like I said, a 575 yard bear rock I held a bit too much wind and advised, our elevations were within a couple inches but he was able to get closer to center on my wind call, it was very windy but quartering towards hard, still in kill but a few inches further than I should have and he capitalized on the data, 2 dead bear rocks, whatever you choose, make sure it suits you and the task at hand, be wary of who you call out, don't judge by a simple looking rifle and scope lol, that bear rock was done with a blaser k95 with a 2.5-8x36 on it, the sheep rock was a tikka t3 lite .270 with a 3-9x33 ultralight on it, both with factory ammo, competing against an f-class 300wm 28" with 180ab handloads and a 264wm custom with whatever bergers hand loaded and 26" tube etc., if those rocks were fixing to leave shortly and pressure was on...there would have been only 2 dead rocks.

If someone grows up blue collar and has never been far from wrenches, tape measures, tool benches, service rigs, plumbing, electrical...etc. don't make mistake of thinking they don't understand distances in inches/feet up close or far away on known target sizes. Visualizing distances on targets of known size it's not hard to out precise guys who don't have that skillset and need as much technical gizmo help as they can get but 2 1/2 feet will put that ram down in that example, I actually had 28" calculated but reality is you're not gonna get the wind call/angle that precise so as the gaps go beyond 18" it's easier to talk and hold in feet lol, pretty extreme situations and not ones I'll likely shoot on game but practice you bet. Don't assume a guy can't do this as well as you dialling to whatever your gizmo tells you to dial to, the gizmo's aren't going to tell the whole story at actual time of shot, one is simpler, one is faster, one is also more adaptable to watching conditions at exact time of shot, wind dies off etc. and making last minute adjust while in the scope where that may fluster the guy who dialled his hold, one method makes more sense for hunting, the other you're just making something that makes more sense for the range work for hunting situations, I choose to live in the most hunt focused realm of this, do as you please, but break out the stop watch and call a guy like me out and will see who's in the kill zone first and by how long.

I do this almost always with 2.5 lb - 3.0 triggers too, have been on coyote hunts with same friend who I always bug about bringing that range gear to the field and he breathes on his trigger while moving to set on an incoming coyote and boom. Only once so far but... He's also the best running shot on coyotes I've ever seen, he'd run with that Les Johnson guy. So it's not common when the range gear isn't adaptable but common enough imo.

The same principals apply...run a sub-moa hunting rig that is simple, fast and intuitive and learn how to do wind as that's the toughest part of the game. I still don't have an angle compensating rangefinder but I agree with them and will likely have one soon (geovid pro on list for when arrive to supplier) it's instinctual to me to see the horizontal and dial to that, likely from all the years of bowhunting before angle compensating rangefinders came along lol....a step I don't really need to do but it's not super critical and minor adjusts easy to keep in kill zone. This just gets back to get good with your gear, whatever it is, you'll be deadly, but the guy who chooses simplest will be faster and more effective in more hunting situations.

with geovid pro I'll only be using the angle compensated range, my set up will stay the same, speed dial turret and 4 wind holds memorized, so it's going to have far more function than I need but I'm primarily an under 600 yards hunter, I'm looking forward to seeing what the navigational aspect of the new tech can do for stalking and recovering and combining my bino/rangefinder (and gps) in one unit with this optical upgrade

so back on topic, mil is not superior lol...at least not for hunting, op should have been more specific, maybe for the range rigs

 

[Stinky Coyote]

At the end of the day they are just units. My entire world has been dual dimensioned. In engineering school we would take thermodynamics test that were half in imperial units and half in metric. When I was running competitively we would run metric distance races and then get mile splits from our coach. I just build a manufacturing site where the building is spaced out entirely in imperial units but the equipment and production is all metric. I multiply or divide by 25.4 at least a dozen times a day to convert inches and mm. I’m indifferent to understanding units in general.

The biggest fundamental advantage to mils as used in optics is they are base 10 numbers instead of fractions. MILs definitely make for easier math on MPH x distance out of random luck but not for any intentional reason. Being that wind calls are the hardest part of long range dope I can see why people value simplifying a system but experience and documented dope will rule the day rather than unit choice. Regardless I’m going to have a hard dope card when hunting, usually a custom turret for a given hunt altitude and expected temperatures and at least 2 devices that are ballistic computers between apps, rangefinders and wind meter/kestrel.

Most serious PRS competitors and long range rifle trainers use MILs but that’s just a critical mass function. At some point everyone has to agree on a common technical language or the proportion gets high enough that almost everyone switches over. If you want to seek out training today for long range rifle work they are most likely going to teach in MILs.

For hunting sake I don’t think it matters but I use a 200 yard zero, don’t really shoot past 500 yards and will quickly reduce my max range for shots in any amount of cross wind.

I’d bet 90%+ of hunters are using moa and that’s the majority of the offerings in sub $1k SFP hunting centric optics. That market flips at $1500 to very MIL centric with the more long range offerings.

There are definitely scopes I like the reticle design better and some I like the MOA reticle more so that does factor in. With the current offerings on the NXS 2.5-10 I’ll take MOAR over MIL-R but on the NX8 I’ll take MIL-C over MOAR.

great post, also do the 200 yard zero and speed dial turret and same distances and rules for wind on game etc. and speak fluent metric/imperial and saw same blend in power engineering school also, I still had to psi lots of the kpa stuff and inch/foot a lot of the metric stuff as I was a little older when I went and got that ticket lol and I still mph a lot of kmh stuff being a gear head too, lot more metric up here in Canada so I've got a lot of conversions in my head that I can bring up on the fly haha, still use a ton of it every day for hobby stuff and work in construction estimating

sounds like this prs makes a lot of sense for the 600 yard and beyond world where as much help as possible that you can still use effectively afield would be good but also a rabbit hole you can get too far down and get too range oriented for hunting and end up less effective 0-600 where the bulk of the true action happens afield, as is always the case, wonder if they have more 'hunt' oriented divisions, 0-600, the 'no battery' idea sounds like one that would make any hunter better lol, a more basic configuration or division that didn't allow ballistics programs/atmospheric meters/more than half dozen data points attached to rifle outside a speed dial turret, would likely be more realistic, timed with heavy weighting on speed to kill zone 1st round hit, 25 lb backpack or terrain only rest, max rifle weight 8.5 lbs, minimum trigger pull weight 2.5 lbs, max barrel length 24", factory ammo only....proper realistic hunting set ups...backcountry on foot division (no horses to carry all your range gear lol and no computers, shouldn't be any computers out there when you're hunting)

 

[Lawnboi]

@Stinky Coyote

I need a condensed version.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

it's on my rifle lol

wait...here ya go https://www.instagram.com/p/Cc8XA1ZJ3D1/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link