Mental Exercise: Wolves or Cattle?

[gbflyer]

No one has mentioned that with the wolves and no cattle scenario there were plenty of Buffalo roaming around.

 

[Hondo0925]

I will play devils advocate.
Wolves!
Texas is for cattle

 

[def90]

Oversimplifying this but If you had the ability to hunt what was the undisturbed United States, or at least as close as you could get to what was the landscape before we spread all over it would you?

There are a lot of stories about how the native americans managed the landscape via prescribed burns and other things as well.. How far back are you looking at when you want to talk an “undisturbed” US landscape?

And, what does an undisturbed landscape mean to you? Maybe roadways and development have more of an impact than wolves or cattle?

BTW, I don’t see any cattle at all in any of the places I hunt in Colorado.

 

[TaperPin]

Cattle are simply a graising animal raised for profit - if goats were more profitable everyone would raise them - same for domesticated elk or buffalo. Corporate buyout of most of agriculture from commercial fishing to farming to ranching, changes who the stakeholders are. If this industry needs protection from wolves the decision is who pays for it.

I‘d say what I really think, but I’d get banned for having a poor attitude - again.

 

[Rusty Shackelford]

There are a lot of stories about how the native americans managed the landscape via prescribed burns and other things as well.. How far back are you looking at when you want to talk an “undisturbed” US landscape?

And, what does an undisturbed landscape mean to you? Maybe roadways and development have more of an impact than wolves or cattle?

BTW, I don’t see any cattle at all in any of the places I hunt in Colorado.

You’re right, roadways, houses, cabins etc are all examples of impact on wildlife, personally I’d argue a much larger impact than wolves. But that’s off topic of the scenario I suggested, and i suggested it only because it made me think. If I had to trade cattle and their impact for wolves would I do it? I still can’t answer my own question.

 

[Rusty Shackelford]

No one has mentioned that with the wolves and no cattle scenario there were plenty of Buffalo roaming around.

Good point and that’s another thing to consider. Did they have a similar impact to todays cattle? There were certainly enough of them to do some damage, maybe the herds roamed enough that the ecosystem recovered between herd visits? We know that overgrazing can be pretty damaging, but did millions and millions of bison do the same? I don’t have any clue.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Cattle because if I don’t find an elk at least I can get some free ribeyes for the road

 

[Ross]

No question here see this sequence…..365 days a yr in heavy wolf country this occurs…cattle oh step in cow pies oh no

 

[SWOHTR]

“Everything is better with some cows around”

 

[Pony Soldier]

We had timber wolves before the canadian pack wolves. Cattle feed in the summer with the elk. You can take your canadian wolves. I will take the cattle.

 

[johnnycake]

Wolves are awesome and a riot to hunt. Public grazing is a horrendously subsidized plague on the landscape.

 

[49ereric]

I pick wolves but I don’t own stock.
Been living with wolves most my life and they been around the house many times and my dogs won’t leave the deck when they are. Think I posted the video of two wolves close to the house.
They do make deer hunting harder as deer stay in the thickest of woods-swamps when wolves are nearby. people like easy deer hunting so it is not hard to see why wolves are hated.
the deer population rises and falls mostly due to severe winters with deep snow not wolf kills.
Black Bears eat a lot of fawns as well but are not hated.

 

[RS_Non-Res]

This here is not true, and worse, is an underlying assumption that supports so many stupid liberal efforts at utopia building ("common sense governing").

"This scenario assumes the balance of nature as it existed before humans threw it off
when we started to really take over."​

The critters and natural ballance have almost always been and always will be off kilter. Humans have an imperative to manage them all.

"Just bring back some wolves and they'll naturally manage the elk so the aspen treens can come back and purify the water." Cow pies. If you just educate the youth they will give up gangbanging Walmart stores. More ca-ca. The looters just need money for their basic needs (like 128" screens) to be met by govnt, then the crime will go away. Horse apples. if we just outlaw guns there won't be any murders. Really?​

Utopia building in this world hasn't/doesn't/can't/won't work because is relies on a false notion of all of nature (humans included).

Moocows for me. And wolves. Both it the right place, and strong active management of both.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Cattle all day long… unless in your “ before the west was won fantasy” we get the 4 million bison that also existed for wolves to prey upon and not just elk, deer and moose

 

[Hnthrdr]

Also let’s be clear the idea that utopia existed before “white man” came is such a fallacy. Bison over grazed areas and moved on. Game became so scarce that tribes were nomadic and had to follow the game around otherwise they would starve and I’m sure a lot of them did Hell one tribe would wage war and murder/enslave other tribes over hunting grounds. I do not think there was ever a perfect balance. Places that were over grazed dried up and withered, places that weren’t had epic fires. This whole notion that the world was in perfect harmony before whitey touched boots down is just down right silly. Man and animals (beavers I’m looking at you) have been altering the landscape and trying to cut out a living for forever. Our forefathers took the time to eliminate their biggest competitors a little less than a 100 years ago and we are dumb enough to bring them back. Not saying it was right but they had a pretty damn good reason to do it

 

[Htm84]

Also let’s be clear the idea that utopia existed before “white man” came is such a fallacy. Bison over grazed areas and moved on. Game became so scarce that tribes were nomadic and had to follow the game around otherwise they would starve and I’m sure a lot of them did Hell one tribe would wage war and murder/enslave other tribes over hunting grounds. I do not think there was ever a perfect balance. Places that were over grazed dried up and withered, places that weren’t had epic fires. This whole notion that the world was in perfect harmony before whitey touched boots down is just down right silly. Man and animals (beavers I’m looking at you) have been altering the landscape and trying to cut out a living for forever. Our forefathers took the time to eliminate their biggest competitors a little less than a 100 years ago and we are dumb enough to bring them back. Not saying it was right but they had a pretty damn good reason to do it

The problem with this is they killed off just about everything. It wasn’t just shit with pointy teeth.

 

[Rich M]

Not sure what the mental exercise is supposed to be. Wolves and cattle on the landscape are two very different issues.

Some kind of feel good thing.

They say there is time travel - but would you really just go back to shoot a big muley or elk?

I'll take cattle.

 

[Rich M]

Also let’s be clear the idea that utopia existed before “white man” came is such a fallacy. Bison over grazed areas and moved on. Game became so scarce that tribes were nomadic and had to follow the game around otherwise they would starve and I’m sure a lot of them did Hell one tribe would wage war and murder/enslave other tribes over hunting grounds. I do not think there was ever a perfect balance. Places that were over grazed dried up and withered, places that weren’t had epic fires. This whole notion that the world was in perfect harmony before whitey touched boots down is just down right silly. Man and animals (beavers I’m looking at you) have been altering the landscape and trying to cut out a living for forever. Our forefathers took the time to eliminate their biggest competitors a little less than a 100 years ago and we are dumb enough to bring them back. Not saying it was right but they had a pretty damn good reason to do it

Thanks for bringing some common sense into this conversation.

Some folks think up scenarios on how things would be better and push for them. AK has more game and also has wolves. So if we reintroduce wolves to CO, there will be more game.

The logic is sound! Let's do it.

 

[buckpro]

Interesting to see the responses but not surprising. Funny that everyone’s dream hunts are in Alaska/Canada which have tons of wolves and basically zero cattle.

Have you ever hunted up there? Life is tough, and you can go days without seeing a moose. Low density population and low density of people/hunters, compared to the lower 48.

Let not forget, the wolves reintroduced aren't exactly the ones that were here to begin with. People have changed the landscape and it's too late to go back.

Also when predators get out of hand they break out the aerial assault, the lower 48 doesn't.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Interesting to see the responses but not surprising. Funny that everyone’s dream hunts are in Alaska/Canada which have tons of wolves and basically zero cattle.

How many strip malls, subdivisions, highways, etc are there in these landscapes of the NWT, Yukon, Alaska wilderness winter ranges? How many millions of people are raping the landscape up there? Comparing managed or unmanaged wolves in the lower 48 to Canada and Alaska is lame. It’s safe to assume you didn’t even come up with this statement yourself and took it from Rinella’s short sided argument to say the least. I’d love to hunt the Yukon and Alaska someday and don’t mind the presence of wolves when the nearest road and town of 20 people is hundreds of miles away.