McGuire Ballistics field and terminal reports

[SDHNTR]

I know one of Sam's product testers and have seen the results over the course of a couple years. I am always given the straight no BS answer from the tester and he is sold on the performance.

I've never asked if the bullets yawed or bent as I have found that's situation dependent....but I have seen a couple of dozen dead critter pics and they're all impressive.

When I questioned him on how the bc worked out (because I was skeptical) he confirmed they're correct. This has held up over match shoots and on paper.

I have no dog in this fight but I have seen the byproduct of this bullet. I didn't get my perspective on the internet, it came from a friend who shoots a bunch and has used thousands of these bullets.

An independent review is helpful. I’m still a bit confused I think on this single feed thing. The SMC Guide fellow didn’t directly answer. I think what I understand so far is if I want the lower velocity opening option my rifle will be single feed only, or the tips will be damaged in the magazine because they are softer. And if I want my rifle to function normally as a repeater with the normal bullets that won’t deform, then the expansion velocity is 2000 fps. Is that correct?

 

[Quicksilver]

If they do yaw and exit sidewayz and tumble and whatnot, but still wreck stuff and kill every time. Who cares! This could be an advantage especially with higher impact velocities. But mono’s like speed, I feel this is widely known.

And form just comes across sassy all the time, the guy is just curious. If you told him a ham sandwich kills better than a tmk, guess what he’s going to test

 

[BBob]

I think what I understand so far is if I want the lower velocity opening option my rifle will be single feed only, or the tips will be damaged in the magazine because they are softer. And if I want my rifle to function normally as a repeater with the normal bullets that won’t deform, then the expansion velocity is 2000 fps. Is that correct?

I think what they (SMC GUIDE) intend is for the first round to be the softer tip and the follow up rounds to be the harder tip. This doesn’t make your rifle a single shot but isn’t ideal as far as expansion velocity for follow up shots. So yeah pretty much what you said above but use the soft tip for the first shot.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

An independent review is helpful. I’m still a bit confused I think on this single feed thing. The SMC Guide fellow didn’t directly answer. I think what I understand so far is if I want the lower velocity opening option my rifle will be single feed only, or the tips will be damaged in the magazine because they are softer. And if I want my rifle to function normally as a repeater with the normal bullets that won’t deform, then the expansion velocity is 2000 fps.

Sorry about not answering. A bit difficult keeping up. Single Feed bullets have a much more sensitive tip that can be damaged during recoil in magazine. They can be ran in magazine if cartridge is held in place during recoil or we add tip stop to magazine. Magazine Feed bullets are same bullet that will shoot same POI but have tougher tip to handle recoil. Bullets can be ran together. The single feed is highly recommend for lower impact velocity on game. We are talking about creating a magazine that will stop tip damage.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

Cow Elk
7STW
7MM 160GR CRSF
3327MV
550 Yards
These are directly from customers so bear with me. My understanding wind pulled first shot into liver. Bullet sized entry, liver and exited dime sized. Second shot cow turned and bullet ran between rib cage and sholder. Main part of bullet never entered rig and exited front of sholder. Damage internally is from bullet deployment. The whole thing lasted 30 seconds I believe.

 

[Doc89]

Quick chime in on the single feed vs mag feed thing. I had to wrap my head around this concept when I first tried the McGuires also, but mind you the tip design on this bullet is part of the proprietary and unique technology exclusive to McGuires Ballistics. It's truly different than any other monolithic or any tipped bullet out there. Probably why it's not advertised in great detail for fear of being replicated? My assumption...

The single feed or magazine sensitive bullets can in fact be ran in a repeater platform. That's actually my preference, however you have to test it in YOUR rifle or just run mag feeds to be on the safe side. Like SMC mentioned, the amount of magazine tension vs recoil vs internal magazine length will tell you if you can get away with one more so than the other.

For example, my 7 saum is a medium action. So more mag length to work with and still a relatively lower recoiling platform. When I first purchased bullets to test, I ordered the "single feed" or "magazine sensitive" models for load development in hopes to use them. My Hawkins Precision Hunter dbm holds 3 down. On my initial charge weight ladders I loaded 3 in the mag, then shot round 1 and dropped the mag to inspect the next rounds for tip damage (rounds 2 & 3). After shooting all 3 rounds from the mag without any tip damage to rounds 2 & 3 throughout my ladder, I determined my setup can use "single feeds".

Single feed vs magazine feeds are both physically the same exact size & weight. They both shoot to the same point of impact (I tested it yes). You visually cannot tell the difference between the two, hence why they now come with a color coded tip i believe? They both expand and perform reliably on game that I've shot, actually couldn't tell the difference but I don't shoot animals close to 2000 fps regularly.

Couple other solutions to consider when using both Single feed & mag feed. Install one of those 2 round holders on the stock. Put single feeds in the round holders, and keep mag feeds in the mag/box so your first round is the single feed. YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO THIS, but its a viable solution if you're worried about it. Also, McGuire is developing a tip protector to install into the dbm style magazines. He installed mine for basically the cost of shipping a mag to him...

Hope that helps!

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

An independent review is helpful. I’m still a bit confused I think on this single feed thing. The SMC Guide fellow didn’t directly answer. I think what I understand so far is if I want the lower velocity opening option my rifle will be single feed only, or the tips will be damaged in the magazine because they are softer. And if I want my rifle to function normally as a repeater with the normal bullets that won’t deform, then the expansion velocity is 2000 fps. Is that correct?

He said 2000fps for the single feeds and check the website for the mag feeds because he didn't recall off the top of his head.

Depending on your caliber and magazine you can use single feeds. In my 300wsm for instance I have a HCA mag that has bump outs for the case shoulder that prevent bullet tips from contacting the magazine during recoil, that situation would allow the use of single feed bullets for example.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

He said 2000fps for the single feeds and check the website for the mag feeds because he didn't recall off the top of his head.

Depending on your caliber and magazine you can use single feeds. In my 300wsm for instance I have a HCA mag that has bump outs for the case shoulder that prevent bullet tips from contacting the magazine during recoil, that situation would allow the use of single feed bullets for example.

Great point. This helps as well.

 

[28bang]

There have been some cherry picked photos comparing short ranged shots to longer shots. The one guy used some of my short ranged photos which were well under 100yds where the petals come off and compared them to the 550 yd photo where the petals are retained. These are going to act differently when the petals don’t stay intact, this shouldn’t be hard to figure out. Sam has posted all kinds of photos on LRH. I’m sure he’ll do the same here. They’ve got it done at short range and long range for me, all quick kills. There’s only one way to find out, use them yourself.

 

[Brontosaurus]

Dead is dead and those wound channels definitely look like they killed well! If you could get those bullets to consistently tumble that’d be awesome.

On another note, why the massive BC discrepancies? I’m betting ABs doppler isn’t lying. Fudging bc numbers could cause someone to take a shot well outside the impact velocity window of the bullet. Not to mention the poi effects when taking longer shots. I’m not dogging on the bullets. I think they’re neat and have a place for cali hunters. But why not just get a solid bc number from radar and post it?

 

[Doc89]

Dead is dead and those wound channels definitely look like they killed well! If you could get those bullets to consistently tumble that’d be awesome.

On another note, why the massive BC discrepancies? I’m betting ABs doppler isn’t lying. Fudging bc numbers could cause someone to take a shot well outside the impact velocity window of the bullet. Not to mention the poi effects when taking longer shots. I’m not dogging on the bullets. I think they’re neat and have a place for cali hunters. But why not just get a solid bc number from radar and post it?

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Is that from Applied Ballistics?

Definitely interesting. A couple observations though, I haven't seen anyone use a 6.5mm 125 CR at 2800 fps MV. Even the Creeds are shooting them 3000 fps +, PRC's usually 3100-3200+. So not sure if that plays into it? Secondly, all the McGuires BC's have trued within .020 +/- G1 when I've used them as a starting point (my personal experience).

Doubt it's deliberately inflated, but there's something else going on maybe?

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

Dead is dead and those wound channels definitely look like they killed well! If you could get those bullets to consistently tumble that’d be awesome.

On another note, why the massive BC discrepancies? I’m betting ABs doppler isn’t lying. Fudging bc numbers could cause someone to take a shot well outside the impact velocity window of the bullet. Not to mention the poi effects when taking longer shots. I’m not dogging on the bullets. I think they’re neat and have a place for cali hunters. But why not just get a solid bc number from radar and post it?

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I am not familiar with those. We drop test and send out to testers to get numbers back. We impact test at range to at or under 2k of velocity. If our BC is wrong then our minimum impact velocity is lower than stated. This was an impact test at 600 yards. First bullet was .600 G1 which is what we are running and used, second is with that .490G1
Either way bullet functioned. BC has been a major pain and we get numbers higher and lower but what we give will easily put you in a spot to true. Anyone is welcome to send in what they get and we will adjust accordingly. We do plan on getting everything verified going forward. Also I am self taught in all aspects of shooting and the creation of our projectiles. I can and will make mistakes in the process but I am willing to change my opinion when I get new information and always looking to improve.

 

[Brontosaurus]

Is that from Applied Ballistics?

Definitely interesting. A couple observations though, I haven't seen anyone use a 6.5mm 125 CR at 2800 fps MV. Even the Creeds are shooting them 3000 fps +, PRC's usually 3100-3200+. So not sure if that plays into it? Secondly, all the McGuires BC's have trued within .020 +/- G1 when I've used them as a starting point (my personal experience).

Doubt it's deliberately inflated, but there's something else going on maybe?

Yeah it’s a custom PDM from AB. As for the MV I was in the short barrel headspace but that doesn’t change the fact that the BC is over .100 points off. But for normal hunting ranges I get that it’s not a huge difference. And I know it’s not intentional. Just annoys me to see inflated numbers… feels like every mono manufacturer is doing it.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

Is that from Applied Ballistics?

Definitely interesting. A couple observations though, I haven't seen anyone use a 6.5mm 125 CR at 2800 fps MV. Even the Creeds are shooting them 3000 fps +, PRC's usually 3100-3200+. So not sure if that plays into it? Secondly, all the McGuires BC's have trued within .020 +/- G1 when I've used them as a starting point (my personal experience).

Doubt it's deliberately inflated, but there's something else going on maybe?

That is a good point. We are mainly concerned with magnum type velocities. We give the best number for the distances a projectile will be used for hunting at. We have noticed the lighter and smaller caliber BCs do seem to be much more volatile to velocities and distance. The 6MM is a good example of this. We give a .500G1 and that seems to hold very well to 600-700 yards at around 3200MV. Decrease MV and increase distance the BC seems to drop off.

 

[SDHNTR]

Sorry about not answering. A bit difficult keeping up. Single Feed bullets have a much more sensitive tip that can be damaged during recoil in magazine. They can be ran in magazine if cartridge is held in place during recoil or we add tip stop to magazine. Magazine Feed bullets are same bullet that will shoot same POI but have tougher tip to handle recoil. Bullets can be ran together. The single feed is highly recommend for lower impact velocity on game. We are talking about creating a magazine that will stop tip damage.

Ok so that’s interesting. Fire the first bullet single feed and the rest out of the mag. How do you keep same POI between the two? Either the size/shape of the bullet has to change and/or the balance of the projectile would have to change right? Take material from the tip (larger hollow point) and move it to the back of the bullet you are going to change BC. How do you maintain the same flight characteristics so as to maintain same POI?

 

[SDHNTR]

I am not familiar with those. We drop test and send out to testers to get numbers back. We impact test at range to at or under 2k of velocity. If our BC is wrong then our minimum impact velocity is lower than stated. This was an impact test at 600 yards. First bullet was .600 G1 which is what we are running and used, second is with that .490G1
Either way bullet functioned. BC has been a major pain and we get numbers higher and lower but what we give will easily put you in a spot to true. Anyone is welcome to send in what they get and we will adjust accordingly. We do plan on getting everything verified going forward. Also I am self taught in all aspects of shooting and the creation of our projectiles. I can and will make mistakes in the process but I am willing to change my opinion when I get new information and always looking to improve.

Appreciate the humility. That said, Applied Ballistics is widely considered the gold standard. I'd highly suggest familiarizing yourself with their app and even Brian Litz' books and published bullet BC figures. Not saying you are (but certainly advising against) inflating BC figures intentionally. The consumer is far too informed these days and will see through inflated numbers, which only results in a black eye to the company, just ask Hammer.

 

[WeiserBucks]

just ask Hammer.

Many did, and they were told that Litz/AB didn't know what they were talking about and many who disagreed with Brian were banned from another forum. Money talks over there and sponsors are in a golden chair above the members.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

Ok so that’s interesting. Fire the first bullet single feed and the rest out of the mag. How do you keep same POI between the two? Either the size/shape of the bullet has to change and/or the balance of the projectile would have to change right? Take material from the tip (larger hollow point) and move it to the back of the bullet you are going to change BC. How do you maintain the same flight characteristics so as to maintain same POI?

This was a 28 Nosler and 168GR lot test from last year. Single feeds and magazine feeds from three different lots shot together. Target on the right is at 800 yards. The difference is internal and unmeasurable. In that set up I run single feed on top and bottom two in magazine. I run a short action holder on side with single feeds. 600 yards and under I will shoot either one into animal without any terminal differences. Past that I run single feeds and I know to go to side holsters for backup if needed. They are designed to run together if needed. Mag is for an oh shit moment at medium ranges.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

Appreciate the humility. That said, Applied Ballistics is widely considered the gold standard. I'd highly suggest familiarizing yourself with their app and even Brian Litz' books and published bullet BC figures. Not saying you are (but certainly advising against) inflating BC figures intentionally. The consumer is far too informed these days and will see through inflated numbers, which only results in a black eye to the company, just ask Hammer.

Fortunately we get very little feedback from customers on BCs being way off. The variation I get back is almost 50/50 high/low on BC. Every one that is a dedicated long-range hunter trues their rifles and they understand that is a part of the process. If any customers find numbers that don't match up feel free to reach out and we will adjust accordingly.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

7SS
143GR CRSF
3225MV
324 yards