Max Helical — Parachute Effect?

[jonesn3]

I listened to a podcast recently by a very reputable archer. They were discussing a recent arrow ballistics study and commented that the max helical configuration (e.g. Arizona EZ Fletch max helical) resulted in larger group sizes somewhere in the 60-70 yd range, particularly with broadhead, due to what they described as parachuting phenomena. Any Roksliders have experience or feedback on this point?

I’ve been using a max helical the last few years and felt like it worked well. But this study got me reconsidering and possibly going back to a 2 deg helical on the bitz jig. I even refletched a couple arrows today with the lesser helical to test and found broadheads still hit with field points at 20 and 40 yds. Downrange velocity between the 2 deg and max helical was a difference of 0.6 fps and 1.1 fps at 20 yds and 70 yds, respectively. Field points appeared to shoot somewhat similar size groups for me at 40 yds, but need to test it more. Thoughts? Am I overthinking this (probably)?

 

[5MilesBack]

I don't like a lot of helical on my arrows......they're generally louder, and yes they do parachute a bit compared to less or no helical. You need "just enough" drag to stabilize BH's, anything more is just more drag on the arrow long range.......i.e. slower which makes them hit lower.

 

[wapitibob]

Some of the fita guys studied that back in the day and found it happened. Not sure of point weight back then, probably in the 100gr range vs the 120-140 most target guys use now.

 

[Marshfly]

Thoughts? Am I overthinking this (probably)?

Yes.

Can you hold a fairly tight group out to 60-70 yards? When you start out with a broadhead as your first arrow, are the following field points in a group surrounding it at those distances? If so? That's all you need to know.

I use the AZ Mini-Max and have zero issues with QAD Exodus broad heads shooting with field points out to 70 yards.

 

[ATL]

I have not observed a parachute effect out to 65 yards with DCA’s with max helical. With field points, different fletch configurations (size/degree) generally hit together for me.

It is my belief the max helical provides maximum forgiveness for fixed blades. It corrects for a bad shot quicker, getting that arrow back on line. Once the arrow starts spinning it does not use much energy to keep it rotating, and a straight flying arrow (tail following tip) is going to create less drag than one porpoising/kicking.

Years ago when we used 4-5” fletch, a 3* helical provided the same resistance to the airflow as today’s 2-3” fletch has with maximum helical.

 

[billysmals]

I don't know if you are overthinking it. I too haven't had much parachute problems. I've been running EZ fletch mini max left and right for awhile. I do believe that the parachute effect you are talking about is more than a product of just the vanes and helical. Essentially what I have understood, a parachute effect occurs when the back of the arrow is trying to spin while the tip of the arrow is spinning at a slower rate. So essentially the back and the front of the arrow become disconnected during revolutions causing the back where the vanes are to parachute as they spin faster than front, causing off axis rotation. Part of this problem is the weight of the point. If there is a big tip/insert/outsert weight at the front, the mass of that tip takes more energy to spin essentially slowing it's revolutions down. How much weight is too much? I don't think it's as simple as xxxx weight is going to cause parachuting...

You can also add arrow length to this as well. Longer arrows take more energy to spin. All these variables contribute to slower font spinning effects, then when combined with a higher spin rate in the back parachuting can occur. Obviously more helical creates more spin, but I think there are more variables contributing to parachuting that just the vane/helical.---Now maybe I'm over thinking it

For me I shoot the EZ fletch minimax and haven't had problems shooting fixed blades at 85 yards. Field points fly similar as well. For reference I have 25.75 ish arrow length, 185gr up front (FP, insert, and collar), 3 fletch easton bully vane (2 inch blazer profile .5-.55 height) max helical to the left with total weight 438ish gr. Arrow is a Victory RIP TKO 300 spine, insert is podium titanium 50gr, 10gr IW collar.

If your flight and accuracy is good with consistent groups, I wouldn't worry about it. Personally I would choose a lower profile 3 vane with a max helical than changing to a blitz less helical. But i'm lazy and it's cheaper for me to buy lower profile vanes than it is to buy a blitz or vane master pro....

 

[Ozarkhuntr]

I had somewhat of a parachuting affect around 60 yards on AAE Max Shield cut fletching. Switched from 100 gr heads to 125 gr heads and seems to fix it.

Probably a bit of overthinking on changing up everything. As long as you are confident in how you’re shooting and the arrows go where you want now, no need to change it up.

 

[realunlucky]

There is a difference between what will work and what offers optimal performance.






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[Billy Goat]

I posted some numbers last fall of retained velocity at distance, it was surprising how much the heavy helical didn't slow the arrow out around 60 yards.


I don't do a lot of groups with broadheads, so I guess I can't say one way or another about accuracy.

I do think you can have too much drag on the back of an arrow. I use to shoot flu flu's a lot. They weren't ever as accurate at 30 yards as my regular arrows. So I believe at some point, between a 1 degree straight off set, and uncut 4" feathers at 3 degree helical, accuracy degrades. Don't know where that point is exactly.


But when you have more steer on the front (broadheads) you need more on the back to a point.

 

[jonesn3]

Yes.

Can you hold a fairly tight group out to 60-70 yards? When you start out with a broadhead as your first arrow, are the following field points in a group surrounding it at those distances? If so? That's all you need to know.

I use the AZ Mini-Max and have zero issues with QAD Exodus broad heads shooting with field points out to 70 yards.

I believe so. Maintaining decent size groups at 60 yds with field points at least this weekend. I did this year's Cold Bow Challenge, and on my practice shots immediately before the challenge and on the first day were good and broadheads hit with FPs and within the "kill zone" at 70 yds (subsequent shots on the CBC weren't so good, though).

When thinking about the max helical and its effects, I guess I was focusing more on the group sizes. With BHs, typically I'm just shooting on BH and one FP to follow. Was concerned about the "forgiveness" factor if the max helical could cause some instability and open up groups downrange.

I'm shooting the same broadhead (QAD Exodus). The only thing I noticed leading up to CBC was the significant drop in velocity and POI at 70 and 80 yds.

 

[Marshfly]

I believe so. Maintaining decent size groups at 60 yds with field points at least this weekend. I did this year's Cold Bow Challenge, and on my practice shots immediately before the challenge and on the first day were good and broadheads hit with FPs and within the "kill zone" at 70 yds (subsequent shots on the CBC weren't so good, though).

When thinking about the max helical and its effects, I guess I was focusing more on the group sizes. With BHs, typically I'm just shooting on BH and one FP to follow. Was concerned about the "forgiveness" factor if the max helical could cause some instability and open up groups downrange.

I'm shooting the same broadhead (QAD Exodus). The only thing I noticed leading up to CBC was the significant drop in velocity and POI at 70 and 80 yds.

Personally, I would stop overanalyzing this stuff and just practice and E or live scout more. There is absolutely a point where you screw with your gear too much.

For those people that build their own arrows I would bet more animals are killed with AZ fletching jigs and Bohning Blazers than any other combo. I just don't see much point in overanalyzing this stuff.

 

[jonesn3]

I had somewhat of a parachuting affect around 60 yards on AAE Max Shield cut fletching. Switched from 100 gr heads to 125 gr heads and seems to fix it.

Probably a bit of overthinking on changing up everything. As long as you are confident in how you’re shooting and the arrows go where you want now, no need to change it up.

What was it that signaled to you there was a parachuting issue? Aside from shooting groups, and possibly seeing some inconsistency, I'm curious what the symptom looks.

Probably an absolutely fair point in saying this is over analysis. I definitely need to jump on e-scouting and fitness more between now and season openers.

 

[Shooter Mike]

The parachuting effect is the result of a vane that when the arrow it reaches it maximum spin rate and the velocity has eroded to a certain degree, the spin rate causes the vane to "bend", thus cupping the air, rather than cutting it. This is why a stiffer vane is preferred. It's not the helical alone that results in the parachuting effect - it's characteristics of the vane.

 

[Tilzbow]

More overthinking IMO, experience and recent and past testing. Last fall and winter I shot full helical Arizona EZ Fletch Blazers X 3 vs 3 degree offset Bitz fletched Blazers X 3 vs 3 degree offset Bitz fletched AAE Max 23 x 3 to 100 yards on multiple occasions and have never seen a difference between the three different configurations (arrow weight for all three configurations was identical @500) . The full helical Blazers definitely do a better job steering a FBBH best, especially when there’s a little human form issue so that’s what I use with FBBH.

That being said, it’s fairly common with rifles to have accuracy change with bullet length and rate of spin with rifling so there’s probably something to it at with arrow spin at some point.

 

[flyfisher117]

Comparing a factory fletch 3 vane blazer set up to a AZ EZ mini fletch with AAE Max hunters I saw zero difference out to 65 yards Those max hunters looked like a boat propeller lol.

Maybe John Dudley can shoot the difference. I don’t believe us common folk can. Elk shape or MFJJ has done some max helical comparisons and they said they couldnt really see a change until they got to extreme distances.

 

[Ho5tile1]

I use the easy fletch with left helical as well and iron will heads that are left helical arrow comes out of my bow spinning left I have zero issues with BH and field points out to 65 past that I’m not good enough to tell the difference. But I have done as you and shot both max helical as well as 2 degrees and straight I did my best groups with the max helical at 65 but the 2 degrees was super close and since I’m not Bodie Turner I’d say they fly the same. At my archery club I shoot them out to a 100 arrows fly fine and the groups are no better with FP or different or less helical. But I would defer to the pros but for what I do they work good and that’s all I care about


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[Beendare]

Years ago when I could really shoot a compound, I tested different fletching arrangements and degrees of helical.

Now, before we get into fletch, keep this fact in mind; if you have a well tuned bow....fletching is much less of a factor. If you are just slapping a BH on there after paper tuning FP's with the bow 1/2 tuned- yeah, big fletch and strong helical will improve your groups.


On a well tuned bow, size of fletch or more helical literally made no difference inside 40y. I started to see the negative effects of extreme helical out at 70y plus.

Since then I just stuck with a 1.5deg to 2 deg offset for best accuracy and called it a day.

 

[camelcluch]

I had bad parachute with max stealths and heavy helical. Inside 60, it drove tacks. Stretch it out and the tail was all over the place. Dropped back to about 2.5* and got great flight past 100. I do think each vane reacts differently so you would have to try it out. Or, if you are “all the back” at 60, they fly great.

 

[Bump79]

I don't like a lot of helical on my arrows......they're generally louder, and yes they do parachute a bit compared to less or no helical. You need "just enough" drag to stabilize BH's, anything more is just more drag on the arrow long range.......i.e. slower which makes them hit lower.

This is it. Just adds noise for no benefit. It's a little more drag but you really need to be stretching out to notice.

I just mentioned this in another thread but my biggest problem is that you shishkabob vanes all the time with so much helical.

 

[dtrkyman]

Parachuting comes into play more with Olympic recurve, lighter arrows at lower draw weights and long distance.

A "heavier" hunting arrow at normal hunting distance is not an issue, extend the distance to the extreme and add a crazy amount of offset and helical with larger higher profile vanes and maybe you will set it start to happen.

Lot of tests with a lab radar in recent years show minimal effect on speed loss with normal vane set up used these days.

I am starting to believe in the noise issue on an arrow more and more, a guy at the club was shooting long range with broadheads and blazers, he was a long distance form me and I was at the 60 yard mark and he was shooting 100, his arrows were insanely loud as they went "past me".

I prefer an offset, or slight helical most times, but I rarely shoot a fixed head anymore either.