Masculinity and Caliber Choice

[TaperPin]

Correct.

Using group statistics to describe an individual shooter is pretty poor.

 

[Gorp2007]

Not sure where you got 2600 vs 3000 fps, but Black Hills factory 77 TMK lists 2750 fps.
Factory Nosler 140 AB in 6.5 PRC is listed at 2900 fps.

5.56mm | Black Hills Ammunition

www.black-hills.com

6.5 PRC 140gr AccuBond Trophy Grade Ammunition

6.5 PRC 140gr AccuBond® Trophy Grade Ammunition

www.nosler.com

 

[fwafwow]

The fallacy that the 223 is more effective also conviently fails to take into account normal shooting conditions like wind. It’s shown time and time again that even experienced shooters are often 50% off on tough wind calls - 20% is common on a good day - I grew up in the wind, hunt in the wind, and have been measuring wind in the field since the 1980’s and can’t get closer than 20% - I have yet to meet anyone with an ability to make 10% cold first shot estimates.

At 500 yards the 223 has 1.8 MOA more 10 mph wind drift than a rather ordinary 6.5 PRC. Since wind calls are the limiting factor in making long range hits it seems that should be talked about a lot more than it is if first shot hits are truly important to someone. Using 8th grade math it doesn’t take long to see the 223 can only be reliably shot in 2/3 the wind speed of the 6.5 at that distance.

I’d skip any cartridge for long range hunting based on that alone because it’s simply less effective.

At that distance it’s also no different than a 22 hornet - again, 8th grade decision making can tell you it’s less effective.

I actually have an 8th grader to ask who picks up dog poop in our yard - try to be at least as smart as the dog poop picker.

Do you have some sort of food or other picture that's analogous to pancakes but works for wind calls? Maybe dumb it down to 7th grade math for me.

 

[TaperPin]

Not sure where you got 2600 vs 3000 fps, but Black Hills factory 77 TMK lists 2750 fps.
Factory Nosler 140 AB in 6.5 PRC is listed at 2900 fps.

5.56mm | Black Hills Ammunition

www.black-hills.com

6.5 PRC 140gr AccuBond Trophy Grade Ammunition

6.5 PRC 140gr AccuBond® Trophy Grade Ammunition

www.nosler.com

Whatever source you want to go with, it doesn’t change the fact that the 223 is a dog in the wind.

I’m not wanting to change your mind about anything, but new shooters should look at things like this and think through them.

 

[TaperPin]

Do you have some sort of food or other picture that's analogous to pancakes but works for wind calls? Maybe dumb it down to 7th grade math for me.

Juice boxes. It takes more juice boxes of wind hold with a 223.

 

[Formidilosus]

Using group statistics to describe an individual shooter is pretty poor.

Using your belief about your shooting ability with no objective on demand shooting data is much poorer.

 

[Formidilosus]

The fallacy that the 223 is more effective also conviently fails to take into account normal shooting conditions like wind.

No- it doesn’t. We miss due to the largest source of error.

1- we suck

2- scope/rifle was never actually zeroed

3- scope/rifle lost zero

4- scope/rifle had a sub par zero

5- wind



I and the group I hunt with have seen far more missed and botched shots with 6.5 PRC class cartridges than with 223/77gr TMK’s. People do not shoot as well as they think they do- see reason for missing #1. The easier a gun is to shoot, see your shot hit, and the animals reaction through the scope- the higher the success rate.

It’s shown time and time again that even experienced shooters are often 50% off on tough wind calls - 20% is common on a good day -

Is it shown? Where is it shown that you have seen it “time and time again”? Your personal experience.

I’d skip any cartridge for long range hunting based on that alone because it’s simply less effective.

Who said anything about “long range hunting”?

At that distance it’s also no different than a 22 hornet - again, 8th grade decision making can tell you it’s less effective.

A 77gr TMK with a 2,800fps MV is the same thing as any bullet in a 22 Hornet at 500 yards?

 

[Shō[t]gun]

The fallacy that the 223 is more effective also conviently fails to take into account normal shooting conditions like wind. It’s shown time and time again that even experienced shooters are often 50% off on tough wind calls - 20% is common on a good day - I grew up in the wind, hunt in the wind, and have been measuring wind in the field since the 1980’s and can’t get closer than 20% - I have yet to meet anyone with an ability to make 10% cold first shot estimates.

At 500 yards the 223 has 1.8 MOA more 10 mph wind drift than a rather ordinary 6.5 PRC. Since wind calls are the limiting factor in making long range hits it seems that should be talked about a lot more than it is if first shot hits are truly important to someone. Using 8th grade math it doesn’t take long to see the 223 can only be reliably shot in 2/3 the wind speed of the 6.5 at that distance.

I’d skip any cartridge for long range hunting based on that alone because it’s simply less effective.

At that distance it’s also no different than a 22 hornet - again, 8th grade decision making can tell you it’s less effective.

I actually have an 8th grader to ask who picks up dog poop in our yard - try to be at least as smart as the dog poop picker.


View attachment 702164View attachment 702165

Welp, an 8th grader might stop at the numbers and think that the extra 10-ish inches would push you out of the vitals. But in reality you already know the numbers to account for, so your % off actual wind is all that really matters. According to your 20% incorrect wind call, the 77gr would be a little over 5” off at 500y and the PRC would be a little over 3” off. All that hullabaloo over 2”.

 

[Gorp2007]

Whatever source you want to go with, it doesn’t change the fact that the 223 is a dog in the wind.

I’m not wanting to change your mind about anything, but new shooters should look at things like this and think through them.

Maybe, but you shouldn’t need artificially inflated numbers to make your point.

Actually, just ran the numbers (using actual velocity figures, not inflated for rhetorical effect) with the Hornady calculator. 77TMK @ 400 yards has a wind drive of 0.9 mils (12.6 inches of drift). The 140 AB @ 400 yards has a wind drift of 0.7 mils (9.4 inches of drift). The shooter is only missing the vitals if they decide they don't need ANY wind hold at all, and even then the POI difference is 3.2 inches.

 

[DangerRanger]

The 12-13 year old decision making/critical thinking comp is actually quite a good accidental analogy

Just not for how it was originally written

 

[Thegman]

Not sure where you got 2600 vs 3000 fps, but Black Hills factory 77 TMK lists 2750 fps.
Factory Nosler 140 AB in 6.5 PRC is listed at 2900 fps.

5.56mm | Black Hills Ammunition

www.black-hills.com

6.5 PRC 140gr AccuBond Trophy Grade Ammunition

6.5 PRC 140gr AccuBond® Trophy Grade Ammunition

www.nosler.com

And I imagine the 2900fps is from a barrel longer than 20" as in the 2,750 for the 77TMK. Not saying the 77 is -better-, whatever that might mean, but probably best to start with a similar baseline for a comparison.

 

[TaperPin]

Welp, an 8th grader might stop at the numbers and think that the extra 10-ish inches would push you out of the vitals. But in reality you already know the numbers to account for, so your % off actual wind is all that really matters. According to your 20% incorrect wind call, the 77gr would be a little over 5” off at 500y and the PRC would be a little over 3” off. All that hullabaloo over 2”.

You make my point - add in a shooters cone of fire and that 223 example is out of the vital zone much of the time.

 

[TaperPin]

Maybe, but you shouldn’t need artificially inflated numbers to make your point.

Actually, just ran the numbers (using actual velocity figures, not inflated for rhetorical effect) with the Hornady calculator. 77TMK @ 400 yards has a wind drive of 0.9 mils (12.6 inches of drift). The 140 AB @ 400 yards has a wind drift of 0.7 mils (9.4 inches of drift). The shooter is only missing the vitals if they decide they don't need ANY wind hold at all, and even then the POI difference is 3.2 inches.

The 223 is talked about like it’s the ultimate killing tool for even the most experienced long range hunter, so 400 is short.

 

[Gorp2007]

The 223 is talked about like it’s the ultimate killing tool for even the most experienced long range hunter, so 400 is short.

Straw Person

 

[TaperPin]

The 12-13 year old decision making/critical thinking comp is actually quite a good accidental analogy

Just not for how it was originally written

If the 223 is such a capable round it should be easy to defend.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I and the group I hunt with have seen far more missed and botched shots with 6.5 PRC class cartridges than with 223/77gr TMK’s. People do not shoot as well as they think they do- see reason for missing #1. The easier a gun is to shoot, see your shot hit, and the animals reaction through the scope- the higher the success rate.

Form and I have butted heads on a few topics on here over the years, mostly trying to gain an understanding of what exactly the other is trying to accomplish. At the end of it all, we are after the same goal, and I’ve found that just about all of his sentiments prove to ring true when you are in the field.

The statement I quoted above is 100% seen and proven in my experience shooting/hunting/guiding/instructing for the last 25 years.

It doesn’t matter the shooter skill level, gender, temperature, the terrain, the wind, whether on targets or animals, the color of pants they are wearing, or who they voted for… The easier the gun is to shoot, the higher the success rate. Nothing rings more true in shooting/killing for me.

Although mentioning gender, in general, any females I’ve shot with and taught have been more proficient shooters with the same level of experience when compared to males. What’s interesting about this in a “masculinity” thread is that they are almost always shooting smaller caliber bullets which are easier to shoot. Food for thought for the tough guys.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

You make my point - add in a shooters cone of fire and that 223 example is out of the vital zone much of the time.

… with a 10mph wind at 500y with very skewed numbers in the PRC’s favor. Yeah if that’s what it takes to make your point there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[DangerRanger]

If the 223 is such a capable round it should be easy to defend.

The point very much has, you’re just standing in the corner screaming about nothing while you’ve refused to listen to the entire point behind the 223 concept.

If form thought it was the best long range cartridge in the wind the 6um and 22um wouldn’t exist. But that’s not the case.

That’s never been the point, and it seems from your interactions you either know that and are trolling or refuse to listen. Either one makes the entire conversation pointless

 

[TaperPin]

Straw Person

Again, new shooters should look beyond the repetitive claims of any cartridge to se

… with a 10mph wind at 500y with very skewed numbers in the PRC’s favor. Yeah if that’s what it takes to make your point there are bigger fish to fry.

If someone wants the best killing tool why wouldn’t they consider this? Caliber choice is a core decision.

 

[TaperPin]

The point very much has, you’re just standing in the corner screaming about nothing while you’ve refused to listen to the entire point behind the 223 concept.

If form thought it was the best long range cartridge in the wind the 6um and 22um wouldn’t exist. But that’s not the case.

That’s never been the point, and it seems from your interactions you either know that and are trolling or refuse to listen. Either one makes the entire conversation pointless

I’ve watched and listened over and over - a hundred conversations, with the intended impression that the 223 is all anyone needs, and that’s simply not true on many levels. I bring this up from time to time, and will continue to going forward, just to remind new shooters to think critically about not just how they shoot, but they shoot.