Masculinity and Caliber Choice

[Hunter270Win]

SHORT ANSWER:
Because they had an experience with that caliber, which was more than likely due to their shot placement not being great, and the experience "soured" them to that caliber.

MY EXAMPLE:
Like the very first coyote I ever shot... it was this close-quarters thing that was a jump-shot opportunity at like 25yds about. I was, extremely rapidly due to the situation, aiming for typical behind the shoulder when this yote scrambled up the side of this drainage I was in, and stopped for just a second as he crested the drainage, to look back at me. So I wasn't gonna waste any time!

I squeezed off the shot... literally saw him do a barrel-roll mid-air, and fall to a slump where he was. But he was still like sorta out of it like a drunk flopping back and forth a lil bit for like I dunno 3-5 seconds.... before I dunno maybe shock set in? He then proceeds stand up, turns to look at me, me just staring stunned in disbelief. And he then runs off, up the knoll up there and out of my view.

I figured ok, he'll probably pile up in 40-100yds or something, and up there it shouldn't be hard to find him.

WELL... blood trailed him like crazy, in noisy 20-25mph wind, up out of the drainage, across the rising knoll... then... down into a ravine.. the lil game trail he descended on with lots of splashes of blood on rocks occasionally at the side of this trail... it pointed right at a Juniper growing out of a water rut at the bottom of the Ravine. Took off my pack and crawled up and underneath of it to look around, saw another like silver-dollar sized puddle of blood. Then circled around the Juniper uber slowly, finally found 2 drops. Turned them into a line segment... followed up the other side of the Ravine where that line pointed towards. Yup.. a lil flat spot.. found more bleeding.. then......??? Nothing. The trail ran out. Fanned out, but never found him. Re-traced the blood trail again from beginning to end too. Stayed and watched to see if the Ravens/Crows maybe showed interest in some particular spot. Nothin'.

Now me personally... my first reaction wasn't that a .223 Rem is weak, but for me it was "Holy Crap these Coyotes are TOUGH!" In my mind I was like I couldn't believe what I just witnessed!

Well... Coyotes ARE pretty tough, but a .223 Rem at 25yds is NOT weak, not by any stretch of the imagination.
But you can see what I'm saying about how it would be easy for someone to maybe think that, after experiencing this unsuccessful result? If they personally didn't take the time to really analyze what went wrong.

Later on, after finally taking my first deer, and seeing first-hand how lung-blood looks different than muscle-blood... I feel certain that my other suspicion was probably true... that my shot must have hit him in the protruding phalanges there sticking up from his Vertebrae by the shoulder region instead. The shot a little high. That was how it hit a solid enough structure like that to impart that energy such that it caused him to barrel-roll like I saw. Is what I now figure.

-G

Thanks for the story! I had a similar situation with a .223 and my first hog. The hog ate the dang shot!!

 

[ElPollo]

I think a lot of folks forget that many hunters have been shooting many years and that the basics dont leave. I’m not gonna blow a shot inside 100 yards with about 50 years of shooting couple hundred rounds per year in fun. I will go up to 300-500 rounds if i think i need to shoot 400 yards.

Not gonna try for more than that, not interested in shooting over 1,600 feet in hunting - no place around here to practice.

Not saying this is you at all. But I see people at the range who check their zero with 3-10 rounds over the bench once before the season and who freely admit that is their preseason practice regimen. Others have admitted they are their sighting guns in for family members who’ve never shot them or because they recoil too much too shoot from the bench. There is no way that prepares someone for a 75 yard offhand, kneeling, or even sitting shot. It’s not a rare occasion either. But personally, I find a 75-100 yard offhand what requires much more practice and skill than any 300 yard shot from a rest.

 

[ElPollo]

Just like some people are naturally gifted athletes or ball sports players, some also don’t need to try as hard to excel at shooting

I have never met a naturally gifted shooter who doesn’t shoot a lot. It’s not something we are born with.

 

[Castle Rock]

I have never met a naturally gifted shooter

True, we have never met

 

[Dobermann]

Just like some people are naturally gifted athletes or ball sports players, some also don’t need to try as hard to excel at shooting

 

[Pharmseller]

Let’s talk about quiche some more. It’s more interesting cuz it has bacon.

Mine don’t.
Eggs, mayo, Swiss, white wine, big shrimp cut into chunks, green onions, mushrooms. I think that’s it.


Edit to add, I pronounce it keeeeeesh, it rhymes with neeeeesh.


P

 

[TheGDog]

Not saying this is you at all. But I see people at the range who check their zero with 3-10 rounds over the bench once before the season and who freely admit that is their preseason practice regimen. Others have admitted they are their sighting guns in for family members who’ve never shot them or because they recoil too much too shoot from the bench. There is no way that prepares someone for a 75 yard offhand, kneeling, or even sitting shot. It’s not a rare occasion either. But personally, I find a 75-100 yard offhand what requires much more practice and skill than any 300 yard shot from a rest.

If a person wants good practice shooting for Hunting? HIGHLY RECOMMEND Go out shooting Ground Squirrels ("Poppin' Squeaks!") with a .17 HMR off some shooting sticks in field conditions.

In the neighborhood of 75-100yds away. They are these nice fairly small targets. And while they're not terribly mobile, if they stop for a second, it's a good idea to hurry up and make the shot before they fidget and decide to move again. So you really gotta learn how to get real stable and control yourself off the stix and got on target fairly quickly (which kinda also preps you with quickly getting on target when you need to on-the-fly run up to a nearby tree and brace your rifle onto the side of it supporting it with your hand to take a shot in the field as well). And since it's a .17 HMR and almost no recoil, you're not learning a flinch making the shots. So you can really focus on the calming down your pulse as quickly as possible so you're not shaking so you can make the shot.

Then... go hunt them again with .223 Rem (so a lil more noise and bang is involved so you get used to that), and this time see if you can stretch it out a lil more! Again, off sticks under field conditions. Such as posting up on one side of a Ravine, overwatching the other side you know they like to come out at as the afternoon shadows cast on that opposing side of the Ravine start to cool down the terrain so they feel more comfortable to come out and start foraging for fallen seeds over on that other side.

And also do Rabbit hunting, and force yourself to do it with Rifle. (check regs on that, some counties like LA disallow their take with rifle, even though in the same area you CAN technically use a rifle for Coyotes, so go figure WTF they were thinking on that one) Sometimes I'll do an ambush sit in concealment looking toward a place I've encountered them socializing with each other in the past scouting trips. And it often seems like with Rabbit hunt trips, there's often one last random opportunity that presents itself when you're on your way back to the vehicle toward the end of light. So ya end up also getting practice making like 60-80yd shots offhand and kneeling as well.

 

[Rich M]

Not saying this is you at all. But I see people at the range who check their zero with 3-10 rounds over the bench once before the season and who freely admit that is their preseason practice regimen. Others have admitted they are their sighting guns in for family members who’ve never shot them or because they recoil too much too shoot from the bench. There is no way that prepares someone for a 75 yard offhand, kneeling, or even sitting shot. It’s not a rare occasion either. But personally, I find a 75-100 yard offhand what requires much more practice and skill than any 300 yard shot from a rest.

Fair enough.

We always shot, it was part of family stuff we did. Typically it was about once a month. More lately its been 2-3 times a year and also checking zero and drops before hunts.

50-75 yd offhand shots are pretty much how I have killed the bulk of my deer. Just lines up w where and how ive hunted over the years. I do use a rest any time one is available.

For some reason, I just like to think that most hunters do it right and know how to shoot & where their gun shoots. Plenty of guys on here are long range shooters, so I kinda think most guys can shoot. The people at the range probably haven't scouted either and such.

 

[Turkeytider]

As a newish hunter, I’ve been talking to many folks regarding calibers, rifles, etc. It seems there is a pretty substantial amount of hunters who make fun of people who use “wimpy” calibers and try to justify using a 338 Win Mag on southern white tails.

Shouldn’t a person use the strongest caliber they can shoot the best? A .243 in the right spot is miles better than a 300WM in the dirt ya know?

I’ve even been told the .270, .308, and even the .30-06 isn’t good enough and a magnum is needed . Doesn’t make sense.

Thoughts on why some people seem to think their masculinity coincides with their caliber choice?

" I`m Macho Man!! "

 

[Mike D Texas]

Yes. The more rounds people shoot a year, especially rounds not from a bench, the smaller cartridge they go to. The more they shoot a year, the easier animals die, and the smaller cartridges they shoot, so too seems the easier that animals die.

What it boils down to is that the difference in wound size or killing between any good .224-.308 bullet is generally not noticeable- they all kill about the same with any reasonable shot. The differences come with where the bullets are placed, and the less a gun recoil and moves during the shot- the more shots land in vitals. It’s a positive feedback loop.

Form, let’s say someone is shooting a .223 with 77 grain TMK @ 2800fps and a .308 Win with a 175 grain TMK at 2700fps, it seems to me that the additional mass of the larger diameter and heavier bullet has more opportunity to more damage via more material to fragment, etc…

Do you not see this in the field?


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[Formidilosus]

Form, let’s say someone is shooting a .223 with 77 grain TMK @ 2800fps and a .308 Win with a 175 grain TMK at 2700fps, it seems to me that the additional mass of the larger diameter and heavier bullet has more opportunity to more damage via more material to fragment, etc…

Do you not see this in the field?

Yes, a 175gr TMK causes a larger wound than a 77gr TMK- by about an inch and a half. However, when seen in large numbers, more shots miss with the 308/175gr than with a 223/77gr therefore overall clean kills are higher with the 77gr TMK. Now, that is spot and stalk western hunting. Shooting from a box blind with a rest may be different.

The question is does someone want “more” than what the 77gr TMK produces? Even on an elk, if the bullet hits the scapula, most of the meat is destroyed. The 77gr TMK produces larger wounds on average than most normal bullets from 7mm and 30cal magnums.

 

[yycyak]

Probably a dumb question, but "More shots miss" is because of what? My assumption is it's simply the recoil/flinch factor?

Yes, a 175gr TMK causes a larger wound than a 77gr TMK- by about an inch and a half. However, when seen in large numbers, more shots miss with the 308/175gr than with a 223/77gr therefore overall clean kills are higher with the 77gr TMK. Now, that is spot and stalk western hunting. Shooting from a box blind with a rest may be different.

The question is does someone want “more” than what the 77gr TMK produces? Even on an elk, if the bullet hits the scapula, most of the meat is destroyed. The 77gr TMK produces larger wounds on average than most normal bullets from 7mm and 30cal magnums.

 

[Macintosh]

Man, Im a lifetime short range shooter, going on 40 years of actively shooting. Got into casual prs/nrl type shooting 6 or so years ago. I see a lot of people come through those matches with all sorts of different shooting backgrounds. Seems to me the skills involved in unsupported short range shooting are just as hard and just as temporary as at long range. Sure, if you’ve been shooting for decades you pick it back up much faster and you start from a higher baseline when you do pick it back up, but having watched a lot of experienced shooters whiff on close range 6-8moa unsupported shots in matches when under some time pressure, I just dont buy the “I dont need to practice” line. The hard evidence I have seen just doesnt support it. Maybe there’s some special folks out there, but I havent found one yet. 100% of the evidence I have seen is that at any range, in any discipline, people who practice consistently at shooting better and identifying and improviing their weaknesses simply shoot better, and they consistently shoot better.
I do appreciate the comment above about choosing a caliber for nostalgia or other reasons, nothing wrong with that, I for sure do that myself. But I sure as shit don’t want to practice much with my 3006 carbine!

 

[General RE LEE]

30-06 and 6mm ARC. I’ve become a big fan of the 6 ARC in my Howa Mini bolt gun. I guess I turned in my man card.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Yes, a 175gr TMK causes a larger wound than a 77gr TMK- by about an inch and a half. However, when seen in large numbers, more shots miss with the 308/175gr than with a 223/77gr therefore overall clean kills are higher with the 77gr TMK. Now, that is spot and stalk western hunting. Shooting from a box blind with a rest may be different.

The question is does someone want “more” than what the 77gr TMK produces? Even on an elk, if the bullet hits the scapula, most of the meat is destroyed. The 77gr TMK produces larger wounds on average than most normal bullets from 7mm and 30cal magnums.

Ok I wasn’t off in my thinking as far as bullet performance.

As to magnums, do you think that is because most bullets, at least ones loaded in factory ammo, are typically much less frangible and some being monos?

For the hand loader using Bergers, ELDMs or other bullets of similar construction, assuming they can shoot well, wouldn’t the additional velocity provide substantially more upset and theoretically a larger wound cavity?


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[IDVortex]

Is the M1 ABRAM enough for ass shots?

Only time, and I mean the only time it is enough is if you shoot it directly in the butthole.

 

[IDVortex]

Holy sheet. After reading this I've come to the conclusion that the only way to be masculine with a cartridge is to have a magnum and then stare into the animals ass and fantasize about a animals ass before you shoot it.

I think some folks have a strange kink in this thread.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ok I wasn’t off in my thinking as far as bullet performance.

As to magnums, do you think that is because most bullets, at least ones loaded in factory ammo, are typically much less frangible and some being monos?

That is correct.

For the hand loader using Bergers, ELDMs or other bullets of similar construction, assuming they can shoot well, wouldn’t the additional velocity provide substantially more upset and theoretically a larger wound cavity?

Yes. However, 7mm and 30cal bullets maximized are stunningly destructive and I haven’t met anyone that is ok with the damage created.

 

[Formidilosus]

Probably a dumb question, but "More shots miss" is because of what? My assumption is it's simply the recoil/flinch factor?

Correct.

 

[TaperPin]

The fallacy that the 223 is more effective also conviently fails to take into account normal shooting conditions like wind. It’s shown time and time again that even experienced shooters are often 50% off on tough wind calls - 20% is common on a good day - I grew up in the wind, hunt in the wind, and have been measuring wind in the field since the 1980’s and can’t get closer than 20% - I have yet to meet anyone with an ability to make 10% cold first shot estimates.

At 500 yards the 223 has 1.8 MOA more 10 mph wind drift than a rather ordinary 6.5 PRC. Since wind calls are the limiting factor in making long range hits it seems that should be talked about a lot more than it is if first shot hits are truly important to someone. Using 8th grade math it doesn’t take long to see the 223 can only be reliably shot in 2/3 the wind speed of the 6.5 at that distance.

I’d skip any cartridge for long range hunting based on that alone because it’s simply less effective.

At that distance it’s also no different than a 22 hornet - again, 8th grade decision making can tell you it’s less effective.

I actually have an 8th grader to ask who picks up dog poop in our yard - try to be at least as smart as the dog poop picker.