Mandatory health screening question "Do you have guns in the home"?

Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
1,796
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East Wenatchee, WA
Not counting an annual physical or pre-employment physical, I think I've been to see the doctor on my own accord maybe 3 times in the last 10 years, and have yet to be asked that question. I just had an appointment last week, but that was performed by the doctor that my wife works for. Prior to the appointment, I filled out a 9 page questionnaire and none of those questions asked anything about firearms. I would be flat out pissed off if I was ever asked.
 

Carlin59

WKR
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Jun 6, 2013
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434
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Colorado
Anther coworker's wife is a head nurse at the same medical facility. And has just undergone extensive training in an EPIC records system. Which is purported to be a link of ALL of your medical records and past history to include all prior hand written records once data entry can catch up. The EPIC records system is reported to be owned by the US Government. On the list of accessible users is the Department of Homeland Security. He went on to explain to me that the EPIC records system was pushed out to medical groups with a $50,000 BONUS per Dr in the group the 1st year. Then it was simply offered at no charge.....but is soon headed in the direction that there will be stiff monetary penalties to the groups for NOT using the system in the next few years ie......comply with our national database or be taxed. Has my head been in the sand too long? Or is this stuff really happening?
First off, I am in no way left-leaning, nor do I support the decisions of the current administration in any form (and especially when it comes to healthcare and the Affordable Care Act). However, as a Healthcare IT professional (with a recent Master's in Healthcare Administration and Technology) that is deeply immersed in electronic medical records systems, I would like to clarify a few points for the purpose of continued honest discussion. EPIC is a privately held firm, based in Verona, WI. Although the technology originated 35 years ago in a state-owned (UW) teaching hospital, the company is in no way owned by any government entity. Outside of the ability to subpoena medical records via court order (no different than paper medical records), DHS has no access. Every EPIC database is separate. Even hospitals within the same system frequently have problems sharing data on patients due to this. The $50k bonus you mention is called the Meaningful Use program. It was passed as part of the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. It is actually a tiered incentive program, worth a total of $48k over five years, distributed and overseen by CMS (Medicare). Healthcare providers had to purchase their own electronic medical records system. Epic was just one of over 300 vendors eligible for purchase within the program. These systems were definitely not “pushed out” to medical groups. Large hospitals frequently paid in the $100s of millions to acquire these electronic medical records, with large health systems like Kaiser paying well over a billion. Annual maintenance alone can reach millions of dollars; definitely not “no charge”. There are indeed penalties for not successfully participating in the Meaningful Use program. However, any of the 300 certified vendors may be used to meet the program not just Epic. Also, the data that is reported in the program is not data on individuals. Rather, the questions ask for a numerator and denominator. For example, one measure says that you need to send appointment reminders to 20% of your patients. When I report this, I don’t submit a file saying, “I sent John Doe a reminder on x day”. Rather, I submit a file that says, “of 100 patients in our practice, 25 were sent reminders”. This is how the whole program works. There is no formal national health database outside of Vista, which is the health record used by the VA.
I offer the previous not to argue that various government entities are not secretly gathering data by quasi-legal means. I also do not agree with the increasing practice of healthcare providers asking about guns in the home (as an aside, Florida has made this questioning illegal, although the AMA has a case in the Florida Supreme Court to overturn this). Rather, I want to provide facts for the basis of discussion. If anyone has questions about data sharing or technology in healthcare, please feel free to PM.
Cody
 
OP
J
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Feb 3, 2014
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1,692
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Boundary Co. Idaho
Thank you Cody. Helps to get solid 1st hand info from a Hands On user of your level.

Another question then............Isn't the goal of EPIC and the other databases to have a "compiled" record of personal medical history? Meaning I reside in WA.....if I was in a MVA while attending SHOT Show in 'Vegas, the ER would have instant access to my entire medical history?
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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Feb 27, 2012
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16,133
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Colorado Springs
If it had anything to do with safety in the home for children, the next question after a "yes" answer would be "do you keep them locked up in safe". If it had anything to do with mental health they'd also ask about knives in home or other weapons. This is all about "guns" from the liberal perspective, plain and simple. And quite frankly, every single red-blooded American SHOULD be able to answer "YES" to that question. I'd be more concerned about the folks that can truthfully answer "NO".
 

mplane72

FNG
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Mar 21, 2012
Messages
38
Location
IOWA
I don't remember being asked any such question but if I was I would lie or not answer. Not that it would help much with my kids Dr. Couple weeks ago he was in for a regular check up. The Doc shined a light with a cross hair on it against the ceiling to check something about my boys eyes. When he saw it he held up his imaginary rifle and followed it. My wife said the Doc laughed out loud when Jacob said it was a scope. Most kids he sees say it's a soccer ball. I was so proud.
 

Carlin59

WKR
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Jun 6, 2013
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434
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Colorado
Isn't the goal of EPIC and the other databases to have a "compiled" record of personal medical history? Meaning I reside in WA.....if I was in a MVA while attending SHOT Show in 'Vegas, the ER would have instant access to my entire medical history?
No problem, glad I could offer some insight. You are absolutely correct in that the main goal of electronic medical records is to be able to easily access and share the data across providers and systems. Health data interoperability was just named as the number one national healthcare IT goal going forward, and a roadmap was produced at the federal level to achieve this. The foundation of this has been in place for several years, and is called the Health Information Exchange (HIE) program. Basically, the federal government distributed $500 million to the states to set up a central health data hub for each state. Each of the 300 medical record vendors I mentioned earlier writes it data in a different language. The job of the HIE is to retrieve this data from individual hospitals and clinics, translate the data to a universal language, and make that data available to other healthcare providers within their own electronic medical record. The next goal of these state HIEs will be to link them across states. This is exactly where your scenario of being in an accident in another state but retrieving your health data from back home can play out. This is where the double edged sword comes in. On one hand, the benefit of quickly and easily being able to retrieve critical medical data in an urgent situation, regardless of location, is very valuable. However, if there was information about gun ownership (or non-violent mental health issues, or inaccurate data, etc) in your chart, it would be visible to others as well. As an example, for the CO state HIE, if you have been seen in a hospital in the past 30 days, a red flag pops up in your universal chart. This is to indicate to ER personnel that there could be previous complications to research, but it is also used as a tool to track drug seekers. If you broke your leg a week ago, and showed up at my ER a week later for something else, I may falsely presume you are seeking prescription drugs since I saw the little flag in your chart. On a side note, as a patient you cannot remove your data from the CO HIE. You can request to limit access to it to just “your” doctor, but you have no ability to remove the data. There are 3.5 (out of 5) million unique patients in the CO system currently, and I guarantee that 99.9% have no clue their data is even in a central database, much less that they can’t remove it. One thing you can control (and should) is what is in your chart. Per federal law, you have a right to request and review your entire medical chart. If you disagree with any part of it, you can request that the information be reviewed/reevaluated. Even if the physician refuses to change his documentation or diagnosis, your appeal becomes a permanent part of your record to be shared with other medical providers. In our case, if a doctor made a note that said, “Guns in the home, may be threat to child safety”, your appeal stating “Patient indicates guns are for hunting and self defense, and are securely locked and separated from ammo at all times” would become a permanent part of the chart as well.
 
OP
J
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Feb 3, 2014
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1,692
Location
Boundary Co. Idaho
Thanks again. I was just recently added to "My Chart" here in Washington. I get several emails about my records, but prior to this didn't give a rip. I will delve more into this now.

The thread has pretty much burned out, as well as gotten a little off track. I am not as worried about a "national gun registry" via medical records........there are 4473s that can be had on just about everyone of the firearms I own. Same goes for everyone's SBRs, Suppressors, etc. As well as my CCW permit. Lots of my stuff is "on file".

Again, not taking shots at ER nurses, LPNs, Admin Assistants and even MDs.....but unless they are trained with years of experience of Interview Techniques and Information Elicitation and similar, I am not at all comfortable with their opinion vs my opinion on the data entry, and checking the "crazy" box. I could easily see that it could be Tina the RN getting pissed off because I am irritable after passing a 5mm stone and recuperating reading "Handloader" magazine adding "partially delusional with over exuberance for guns" in a chart and having that bite me in the ass. Simply not fair. Today, one allegation of Domestic Violence, Road Rage, claimed threat of bodily harm can really hink you up...........and they don't simply "disappear" into the ether.
 

Hoyts n Mulies

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
173
Location
Spokane, WA
First off, I am in no way left-leaning, nor do I support the decisions of the current administration in any form (and especially when it comes to healthcare and the Affordable Care Act). However, as a Healthcare IT professional (with a recent Master's in Healthcare Administration and Technology) that is deeply immersed in electronic medical records systems, I would like to clarify a few points for the purpose of continued honest discussion. EPIC is a privately held firm, based in Verona, WI. Although the technology originated 35 years ago in a state-owned (UW) teaching hospital, the company is in no way owned by any government entity. Outside of the ability to subpoena medical records via court order (no different than paper medical records), DHS has no access. Every EPIC database is separate. Even hospitals within the same system frequently have problems sharing data on patients due to this. The $50k bonus you mention is called the Meaningful Use program. It was passed as part of the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. It is actually a tiered incentive program, worth a total of $48k over five years, distributed and overseen by CMS (Medicare). Healthcare providers had to purchase their own electronic medical records system. Epic was just one of over 300 vendors eligible for purchase within the program. These systems were definitely not “pushed out” to medical groups. Large hospitals frequently paid in the $100s of millions to acquire these electronic medical records, with large health systems like Kaiser paying well over a billion. Annual maintenance alone can reach millions of dollars; definitely not “no charge”. There are indeed penalties for not successfully participating in the Meaningful Use program. However, any of the 300 certified vendors may be used to meet the program not just Epic. Also, the data that is reported in the program is not data on individuals. Rather, the questions ask for a numerator and denominator. For example, one measure says that you need to send appointment reminders to 20% of your patients. When I report this, I don’t submit a file saying, “I sent John Doe a reminder on x day”. Rather, I submit a file that says, “of 100 patients in our practice, 25 were sent reminders”. This is how the whole program works. There is no formal national health database outside of Vista, which is the health record used by the VA.
I offer the previous not to argue that various government entities are not secretly gathering data by quasi-legal means. I also do not agree with the increasing practice of healthcare providers asking about guns in the home (as an aside, Florida has made this questioning illegal, although the AMA has a case in the Florida Supreme Court to overturn this). Rather, I want to provide facts for the basis of discussion. If anyone has questions about data sharing or technology in healthcare, please feel free to PM.
Cody

I work in administration of a Hospital and this was one of the few posts on this thread that was based on facts.

The real effect of the electronic health records (right now) is it allows information to be shared quicker if you grant access to a provider in Hospital A to pull your records from Hospital B. Rather than having to find a paper file and scan it, they can now pull it out of a database and send only the pertinent information.

Interesting that the original OP indicated this was a question asked in screening. This is not a question for us and we run EPIC out of all our RHC's as a community connect hospital with Providence.
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
412
Location
The Bluegrass State
This is typical liberal thought process, focus on the gun part...and not the mentally unstable people part..... and doing something about them.
I think this ^ is one of the issues. Its not a liberal or conservative thought process. Mental illness has a social stigma, blaming one political philosophy or the other is counterintuitive. In fact, the same republicans (Blunt, Ayotte, Rubio) that are now so gung-ho about mental health reform as opposed to gun control are the same ones who voted against the parity law of 2008 that would require that insurance companies cover mental health care the same as physical health. The mental health spin is what they are being ordered to push by their lobbyists. Its disgusting that our politicians are so low to use mental health and our 2nd amendment rights as pawns for their own monetary gain. That said, its nobodies business if I own firearms.
 
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unm1136

WKR
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
424
Location
Albuquerque NM
I wanted to think a couple of days before jumping in. I usually answer that political discussion is not what I am there for, and that the question has no medical significance in my mind. I answer for my kids all the time at the Peds office.

My wife works in Medical Records, and the hospital she works at is running Epic. She is also a full time student, and the hospital she is doing rotations on does not use Epic. She thinks that Epic tries to do way to many things, and as a result does none of them well. She was there for the roll out, and could not believe how buggy it was.

My concern is less for a medical record following me indicating I own guns; I have 4473s, and tax stamps out that indicate that. A bigger concern is that someone who has access to my medical records has access to enough information to steal my identity. Not only that, but those records go through many hands and are accessible to many people, not to mention those that get medical records faxed to the wrong number by mistake. Nurses, docs, PAs, PTs, admin clerks, records clerks, and in each of those categories you have full timers, part timers, and temps. My wife constantly has temps making in minimum wage working in the records office. Professionals with licenses can be held to a standard of behavior, until they breech it, but clerks and temps are only held to the policies of their employers. So not only is there potential for identity theft, but a question about guns in the house? What better way for prohibited person to find a way obtain a firearm they can't buy? Not only that, but she is doing clinicals in a teaching hospital. Students from EMS programs, to post doc grad students in Nursing, Pharmacy, Medicine, PT, PA, from this university, and from at least four others, and a community college. That is a lot of people who have not had to sit a licensing exam yet, who have access to alot of private information about me.

Even feeling safe in the home is not a great question. I used to live in a neighborhood called the "War Zone" due to the number of shooting calls. At the time my home town of 550K had more gang members per capita than Los Angeles did during the crack wars of the late 80s, early/mid 90s. I didn't feel safe in any of the three apartments I had in that area, not because my home was unsafe, but because my neighborhood was. Even I admit to having guns in the house, can the physician have a reasonable conversation on safety? Several of my guns are stored loaded, for a variety of reasons. Part of being a mature adult is being able to make those tough calls, and living with the consequences of those decisions. That is also what freedom is about. I am sure that the members of the AAP would refuse safety pamphlets put out by the NRA, and Eddie Eagle coloring books. Locked up and unloaded is not always possible, nor is it always practical.

This goes back to docs thinking that they need to educate us to prolong our lives. They do, to an extent. I can research meds and conditions, as well, and have a conversation on them. What private property I have at home and what I do with it is none of their business. Death or injury by firearm is not a disease or medical issue. It is a sociopoliticocriminal issue. My guns have never killed another person. Funny how my 14 year old daughter needs my permission to get a tattoo, but not an abortion, and her doc is asking questions about my personal property. If she wanted an abortion, I am not allowed to know unless she tells me, because it is her business and her doc would claim a responsibility to protect her privacy but quizzing her about my guns is fair game. I frequently get called to the hospital to take state custody of children who the staff cannot get a hold of parents because they cannot treat the child without parental consent, so they have to be placed in foster care so they can be treated. They can't treat an intoxicated sixteen year old who was in a car crash without a guardian's permission, but they will scream about that same child's "right to choose" and provide an invasive surgical procedure without parental permission or notification.

Healthcare providers should look out for their patients well being and provide treatment for injuries and conditions. They should leave the politicking to the politicians.

pat
 

nflesher

Lil-Rokslider
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Everywhere.....
I got rather heated in the hospital after my first daughter was born. They asked me where I worked, how much I earned per year, the gun thing, and on and on. I told the nurse to take that crap outta here. It's NOBODY'S business where I work, how much I make, if I own guns or anything else for that matter. They finally got the hint I was mad, told me they would get security and have me removed from the room. I called the bluff and told the nurse, send him in, I have yet to see one person who would remove me from here at this point. If you believe anything you ever tell anyone that goes into a database is private, you trust the government way more than I ever would.

Fast forward to daughter number two, and it is clear to me the pediatrician would push anthrax if the drug reps and government told her to do so. They run you through those offices like I used to run cattle through to treat them. Our first daughter couldn't get her shots because there was a shortage when it was time to give her prevnar. We tried for 6 months to get that shot, and the first question they ask when we called to see if they had got the prevnar vaccine in was, "What insurance do you have?" Long story short, state babies and welfare trash got vaccines before my kids did! If you had a medical card, you got treated better. Because I work hard and buy my own health insurance to the tune of 972/month (which was 730/month before Obamacare) my kids suffer and state babies and welfare trash get it for free! Keep drinnking the kool-aid folks.... Nothing you do is private....nothing!
 
OP
J
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
1,692
Location
Boundary Co. Idaho
ABQ is a ROUGH place. Lots of shitty stories here.
As I prefaced the thread with a pre apology about asking this type of question on Rokslide, I also have much more credibility in the members that post here and believe their accounts much more readily. This isn't a opinion driven query about the best presidential candidate. These are Real World occurances across the US. Overall just very disappointed where our country is. And I've lost the belief that "voting" is my Voice. My county is Mail In Only and the Winners are declared before anyone even pulled my ballot out of the casting box..........but that's another question for another time.

Thanks
 
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