Making sure I’m not wasting money - MT preference points

[NDGuy]

If you apply without buying a PP and are unsuccessful drawing a combo do you still get a PP after?

 

[fatlander]

If you apply without buying a PP and are unsuccessful drawing a combo do you still get a PP after?

No


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[wingmaster]

You lose your points by skipping two years, not one year. If I don’t apply in 2022 and 2023, I did not apply in consecutive years and I lose my points. If I skip 2022 but apply in 2023, I did not skip consecutive years and I keep my points.

Cool I get it now. In any event, the $100 fee is a non-starter for me. Although now that I know MT is going to stick it to non-residents, I expect them to similarly jack up the $25 bonus point fee someday.

 

[NDGuy]

No


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Dumb as hell

 

[bsnedeker]

Cool I get it now. In any event, the $100 fee is a non-starter for me. Although now that I know MT is going to stick it to non-residents, I expect them to similarly jack up the $25 bonus point fee someday.

How exactly is MT "sticking it" to you? We sold more NR tags last year than ever before.

You're welcome.

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[bsnedeker]

Dumb as hell

I don't apply in other states, but isn't that how most of them work? If you choose not to buy a point during application you don't get the option to buy later if you don't draw. I could be totally wrong of course, but I thought that was the case in most western states.

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[NDGuy]

I don't apply in other states, but isn't that how most of them work? If you choose not to buy a point during application you don't get the option to buy later if you don't draw. I could be totally wrong of course, but I thought that was the case in most western states.

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The other states I apply in don't let you buy a point ahead of applications. You get allocated one after not drawing or can not apply and buy one after the app period.

 

[wingmaster]

How exactly is MT "sticking it" to you? We sold more NR tags last year than ever before.

You're welcome.

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Preference points were not $100 last year.

 

[bsnedeker]

Preference points were not $100 last year.

Hey there Supply, I'd like you to meet my good friend Demand....I think you two will really hit it off!

Oh, wait, no, Montana following the basic laws of economics like the rest of the world is "sticking it to NR's"...ok then!

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[Pro953]

Hey there Supply, I'd like you to meet my good friend Demand....I think you two will really hit it off!

Oh, wait, no, Montana following the basic laws of economics like the rest of the world is "sticking it to NR's"...ok then!

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But points do not have a traditional supply constraint. The only “supply constraint” is buyers. The price increase is a study of price tolerance/opportunity cost. How high we can we go before we lose buyers.


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[bsnedeker]

But points do not have a traditional supply constraint. The only “supply constraint” is buyers. The price increase is a study of price tolerance/opportunity cost. How high we can we go before we lose buyers.


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Welcome to the world of Capitalism! It's what made this country what it is today. They charge what the market will bear. People can vote with their dollars and withdraw support and the price will go down if/when that happens.

MT isn't sticking it to anyone. If anything, you NR's are doing this to yourselves.

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[Doc Holliday]

Real easy way to remember what to do in MT. Don't buy NR PREF points until the summer/fall BEFORE you plan to hunt. (ie: you plan to hunt in 2024. Do not buy a pref pt in 2022. Buy 1 in summer/fall of 2023, then buy another with your application in Spring of 2024.)

(Buy BONUS points every year regardless of when you plan to hunt)

 

[bigsky2]

Welcome to the world of Capitalism! It's what made this country what it is today. They charge what the market will bear. People can vote with their dollars and withdraw support and the price will go down if/when that happens.

MT isn't sticking it to anyone. If anything, you NR's are doing this to yourselves.

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Montana does stick it to NR. I was born and raised in MT and I also apply in a lot of other states. We are the only state that makes a NR have to be successful in the draw twice to get a limited permit. For example, if a NR wants a 410 archery elk permit, they must first draw the general tag, then draw the 410 permit after that. If a NR draws the general elk tag (at a whopping $934) but then is unsuccessful in drawing the limited permit and doesn't want to hunt general, they have the option of getting a 80% refund. Basically they have to eat the other $186 because of our stupid NR draw system.

On top of that, because of a bill that was passed last session, a certain amount of general tags go to NR with 0 points. I believe the max points is 2 or 3, so now you actually have a better chance of drawing a general tag with 0 points than if you had 1 point. Makes a lot of sense.

MT needs to change their system to match WY. If you want to hunt general units, you apply for general tags. If you want to hunt limited quota units, you apply for that unit and don't have to draw a general tag first. It is painfully confusing the way it is now.

 

[bsnedeker]

Montana does stick it to NR. I was born and raised in MT and I also apply in a lot of other states. We are the only state that makes a NR have to be successful in the draw twice to get a limited permit. For example, if a NR wants a 410 archery elk permit, they must first draw the general tag, then draw the 410 permit after that. If a NR draws the general elk tag (at a whopping $934) but then is unsuccessful in drawing the limited permit and doesn't want to hunt general, they have the option of getting a 80% refund. Basically they have to eat the other $186 because of our stupid NR draw system.

On top of that, because of a bill that was passed last session, a certain amount of general tags go to NR with 0 points. I believe the max points is 2 or 3, so now you actually have a better chance of drawing a general tag with 0 points than if you had 1 point. Makes a lot of sense.

MT needs to change their system to match WY. If you want to hunt general units, you apply for general tags. If you want to hunt limited quota units, you apply for that unit and don't have to draw a general tag first. It is painfully confusing the way it is now.

LOLZ...You had me going until the last paragraph....we need to change our system to work like WY! You mean the state that we have a 22 page thread of NR's complaining about? The state that people think is treating NR's so unfairly that we should cut off their federal funding...that's what you think we should copy? Serious LOLZ. A certain group of whiners will complain about anything it seems, so it seems that chasing what NR's want is a silly game.

If you don't like the MT system....don't apply. People vote with their dollars. NR's have been voting for this system enthusiastically for years and years. You can have whatever butt-hurt opinion you want about how our system is structured, but your arguements hold zero weight considering that the vast majority of NR's seem to love the system based on the growing number of applicants we are getting every year.

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[bigsky2]

LOLZ...You had me going until the last paragraph....we need to change our system to work like WY! You mean the state that we have a 22 page thread of NR's complaining about? The state that people think is treating NR's so unfairly that we should cut off their federal funding...that's what you think we should copy? Serious LOLZ. A certain group of whiners will complain about anything it seems, so it seems that chasing what NR's want is a silly game.

If you don't like the MT system....don't apply. People vote with their dollars. NR's have been voting for this system enthusiastically for years and years. You can have whatever butt-hurt opinion you want about how our system is structured, but your arguements hold zero weight considering that the vast majority of NR's seem to love the system based on the growing number of applicants we are getting every year.

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Ok, I guess I should have been more clear. We should change our system to match Wyoming's current system of drawing NR tags. The thread you are referring to is NR complaining about WY going to A 90/10 split, which is what Montana has. Basically they are complaining about Wyoming changing their NR allocation to match MT. They are also proposing to hammer their mule deer bucks in a few units similar to what MT does statewide. I am not saying we should increase NR tag allocation to match WY, I'm just saying that its ridiculous that we make NR have to beat the odds in two separate draws to get a limited quota permit.

Western hunting is gaining popularity everywhere. Its easier to do than ever...of course there's going to be plenty of demand in MT. I wouldn't say the growing number of applicants is a good reflection of how MT treats NR.

 

[Riplip]

So on that topic, if last year I purchased a PP only, and this year I apply for a difficult to draw hunt in the hopes of not drawing and solely retaining the PP, do I only get back 80% of the license fee in order to keep that second PP? After reading and re-reading the application page that seems to be the case but wanted to be sure.

There is no such thing as applying for a "difficult" hunt with your PP, you either apply for a general tag or you don't. At the time of application you have the option of applying for a limited entry permit, which is only applicable if you draw the general tag. If you are successful in drawing the general tag and not the permit you will lose your PP (regardless if you elected to receive the 80% refund).

 

[bsnedeker]

Ok, I guess I should have been more clear. We should change our system to match Wyoming's current system of drawing NR tags. The thread you are referring to is NR complaining about WY going to A 90/10 split, which is what Montana has. Basically they are complaining about Wyoming changing their NR allocation to match MT. They are also proposing to hammer their mule deer bucks in a few units similar to what MT does statewide. I am not saying we should increase NR tag allocation to match WY, I'm just saying that its ridiculous that we make NR have to beat the odds in two separate draws to get a limited quota permit.

Western hunting is gaining popularity everywhere. Its easier to do than ever...of course there's going to be plenty of demand in MT. I wouldn't say the growing number of applicants is a good reflection of how MT treats NR.

If applicant numbers aren't a good indicator of how we treat NR's what is? Seriously, what other metric do you want to use? Number of complaints on the internet?

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[dreamingbig]

My beef is the outfitter welfare they slid through the back door. That wasn’t capitalism. You can fill in the blank…


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[Pro953]

Welcome to the world of Capitalism! It's what made this country what it is today. They charge what the market will bear. People can vote with their dollars and withdraw support and the price will go down if/when that happens.

MT isn't sticking it to anyone. If anything, you NR's are doing this to yourselves.

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I never said they were doing anything wrong, or that anyone was getting screwed. I was simply pointing out that your supply/demand argument was incorrect. But don’t hurt yourself too bad when you fall off that high horse.


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[TheCougar]

Thanks gents. The way I’m reading it is that I should keep my PP from last year because I applied (unsuccessfully) and I’ll also accrue a PP for this year. I’ll go into the draw next year with 2 points, plus the third at application time… but I must apply next year or they all get flushed. Looks like MT again in 2023!