Maintenance stage of weight loss

[Marbles]

@V2Pnutrition So, I'm still well within the timeframe fo continuing to cut calorie intake (5 weeks), but I'm trying to plan ahead as in the past I have held with cutting for 5 months. Additionally, my wife is on board and I need to provide guidance for her as well. I might actually be able to hit my goal in 12 weeks, but she will not and I don't want her to fall into the same trap I did of just continuing to cut.

In the past maintaining weight loss has been a problem, I always tried to tell myself it was muscle gain, but proved with a DEXA scan that body fat is higher than I want. I would prefer not to spend forever cycling up and down by 15-20 pounds.

The following article strikes me as pretty good, but I'm curious how it comes across to you? https://rpstrength.com/blogs/articles/the-value-of-post-diet-maintenance#:~:text=Ease in with calorie increases,were gaining prior to dieting).

My key takeaways are:
-At 12 weeks, even if goals are not met calorie intake needs to be ramped back up (probably better to do it around 8-9 weeks).
-Should probably spend at least as long as was spent cutting in ramping up and holding the increased intake.

Now, how should I determine were to stop increasing and hold?

I figure other people surely have the same questions.

One other question, if I have a really demanding day physically (say a 30 mile run), obviously intake needs to be increased during the activity, is there any place for increased intake the next day, or should I try and consume the entire amount of excess calories burned during and immediately after the activity?

 

[Marbles]

Just thinking, for calculating maintenance calorie needs, does the following make since?

Weight lost in lbs x 3500 = total calorie deficit for that time frame.

Total calorie deficit +/- any calorie variance from goal during the time ÷ by number of days = calories that should be added during maintenance.

So, 10 lbs weight loss over 10 weeks on a 2000 calorie budget and on average only consuming 1900 calories per day (numbers selected for easy math)

(10 x 3500 - 7000)/70= 400
2000 + 400=2400

So maintenance is 2400 calories per day.

Obviously in both maintenance and cutting, additional calories burn from activity should be added to the calorie budget.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

@Marbles

Great questions!

Out on a hunt now and I don’t want to give you a short reply that isn’t thoughtful.

I’ve set a reminder to answer when I’m back in reliable service in a bit.

Appreciate the tag and question!

 

[EdP]

Weigh yourself every day. This once a week stuff is just plain wrong. It is EVERY DAY because daily variations can be several pounds. Have a several pound variation on a once a week weigh in and you can draw a completely wrong conclusion. Adjust intake based on your daily weight. Work towards a goal based on your desired capability instead of a target weight.

 

[Marbles]

@Marbles

Great questions!

Out on a hunt now and I don’t want to give you a short reply that isn’t thoughtful.

I’ve set a reminder to answer when I’m back in reliable service in a bit.

Appreciate the tag and question!

Good luck. Hope you have a heavy walk soon.

 

[Marbles]

Weigh yourself every day. This once a week stuff is just plain wrong. It is EVERY DAY because daily variations can be several pounds. Have a several pound variation on a once a week weigh in and you can draw a completely wrong conclusion. Adjust intake based on your daily weight. Work towards a goal based on your desired capability instead of a target weight.

I'm not sure we are understanding each other. I reread my posts to check (which lead to grammar and spelling edits) and don't se were I said anything about frequency of weights. This is were I'm thinking you are not understanding what I'm asking.

Now, I am not understanding how one should "adjust intake based on (their) daily weight."

I will agree, if what you mean is a moving average of daily weights. But, nothing should be changed off of one weight, or even 4 to 5 days of weights. Weight itself is only one metric, and I think most people would be better off using multiple metrics. These can be as intensive as actually taking measurements to as lax as just noticing which hole on your belt is comfortable.

No one has to set a goal based on weight, however weight is part of how I get were I personally want to be. I have proven I can meat my physical performance goals at 25% body fat, that doesn't mean I have nothing to gain by dropping 18 pounds to 15% body fat. 18 pounds is a soft goal, if I pack on extra muscle I'll be happy to propel it up the mountain, but I'm not happy carrying a 20+ day fat supply.

 

[EdP]

don't se were I said anything about frequency of weights. This is were I'm thinking you are not understanding what I'm asking.

Now, I am not understanding how one should "adjust intake based on (their) daily weight."

Not misunderstanding your post, just offering an opinion on what I think works best. By "adjust input" I mean put up with being a little more hungry on a given day that your daily weight went in the wrong direction. That daily weight in the wrong direction may have been just retained water that day, or it may have been because your intake was too high the day or two before. Either way, tightening your belt that day will take you in the right direction if you are trying to lose weight, as long as you are not starving yourself.

I generally don't have trouble keeping my weight in check. I do it by staying in a narrow band (about 5 lbs) and I only loose weight by being hungry due to eating less.

 

[H'n'F]

@Marbles Take a look at the macrofactor app. https://macrofactorapp.com/
As someone who had to routinely cut and would binge coming out of the cut, this helped me understand my true calorie expenditure based on my daily weight and food log. It is really the best tool I've found. Also, take a listen to Phil on the Wits & Weights podcast. He has it figured out and his guidance has helped me continue to hold at my maintenance during the season here after my nearly 40 lb weight loss. Good luck bud! It's a slog but it's great when you get it dialed in and get to live in a lean, strong body.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

Thanks again for your patience here, @Marbles . I wanted to actually read the context of your question, the article, etc. and give you a decent reply.

The article covers the nuts and bolts and I find RP to (generally) have good information.

Here’s more detail:
At 12 weeks, even if goals are not met calorie intake needs to be ramped back up (probably better to do it around 8-9 weeks).
This isn’t a hard and fast rule (in theory or what I’ve seen in practice). This is going to be a VERY individualized approach in which you make this call based on how a person’s body (and emotion) is responding to the deficit. It also depends on the amount of weight that person has to lose. In general, you can be more aggressive when a person has a lot to lose and less so when there is less.

Alot of what also determines how long a person can/should stay in a deficit is how fatigued they are by the process. In general, more fatigue leads to a cycle where you find less compliance at periods in the journey and losses simply stop (because of compliance…not metabolism).

Should probably spend at least as long as was spent cutting in ramping up and holding the increased intake.
Not necessarily true either. Again- it could be quick (6 weeks) vs the time in deficit (12-weeks). It doesn’t mean there will be a negative outcome because it wasn’t exactly the same. As you go to maintenance, you’re always evaluating the way the body (and person) responds before you make your next call.

Now, how should I determine were to stop increasing and hold?
Ahhh, that is the great question! This is going to seem like a shortcut answer, but it’s true.

The article does a nice job highlighting the value of running a maintenance phase of a program (and exactly why we do it). Ultimately you have WAY better LONG TERM maintenance of the lower weight.

In short, you should see all 9 of those bullet points happen as the peak of the maintenance range.

One other question, if I have a really demanding day physically (say a 30 mile run), obviously intake needs to be increased during the activity, is there any place for increased intake the next day, or should I try and consume the entire amount of excess calories burned during and immediately after the activity?
I’ll answer this in two parts; one in a general sense and one as it relates to maintenance.

Maintenance: For simplicity sake, I would keep activity linear WHILE you find maintenance. It’ll simplify things 100-fold.

General: Yes. You can average out a net. But, if you’re doing a big push like that, I’d plan most of my calories over typical maintenance to be DURING the activity.

Much of maintenance is touch and go in the sense of you make a change, evaluate the response of the body (and person) and then make your next call. You also can't really "mathify" it (your second post). It’s not quite as linear as a deficit. BUT…it is worth running. We’ve seen pretty awesome long-term results with it from a long-term weight management perspective (not yo-yo’ing).

Hopefully that helps!

PS: thanks for the well wishes. It worked

 

[Marbles]

Thanks again for your patience here, @Marbles . I wanted to actually read the context of your question, the article, etc. and give you a decent reply.

The article covers the nuts and bolts and I find RP to (generally) have good information.

Here’s more detail:
At 12 weeks, even if goals are not met calorie intake needs to be ramped back up (probably better to do it around 8-9 weeks).
This isn’t a hard and fast rule (in theory or what I’ve seen in practice). This is going to be a VERY individualized approach in which you make this call based on how a person’s body (and emotion) is responding to the deficit. It also depends on the amount of weight that person has to lose. In general, you can be more aggressive when a person has a lot to lose and less so when there is less.

Alot of what also determines how long a person can/should stay in a deficit is how fatigued they are by the process. In general, more fatigue leads to a cycle where you find less compliance at periods in the journey and losses simply stop (because of compliance…not metabolism).

Should probably spend at least as long as was spent cutting in ramping up and holding the increased intake.
Not necessarily true either. Again- it could be quick (6 weeks) vs the time in deficit (12-weeks). It doesn’t mean there will be a negative outcome because it wasn’t exactly the same. As you go to maintenance, you’re always evaluating the way the body (and person) responds before you make your next call.

Now, how should I determine were to stop increasing and hold?
Ahhh, that is the great question! This is going to seem like a shortcut answer, but it’s true.

The article does a nice job highlighting the value of running a maintenance phase of a program (and exactly why we do it). Ultimately you have WAY better LONG TERM maintenance of the lower weight.

In short, you should see all 9 of those bullet points happen as the peak of the maintenance range.

One other question, if I have a really demanding day physically (say a 30 mile run), obviously intake needs to be increased during the activity, is there any place for increased intake the next day, or should I try and consume the entire amount of excess calories burned during and immediately after the activity?
I’ll answer this in two parts; one in a general sense and one as it relates to maintenance.

Maintenance: For simplicity sake, I would keep activity linear WHILE you find maintenance. It’ll simplify things 100-fold.

General: Yes. You can average out a net. But, if you’re doing a big push like that, I’d plan most of my calories over typical maintenance to be DURING the activity.

Much of maintenance is touch and go in the sense of you make a change, evaluate the response of the body (and person) and then make your next call. You also can't really "mathify" it (your second post). It’s not quite as linear as a deficit. BUT…it is worth running. We’ve seen pretty awesome long-term results with it from a long-term weight management perspective (not yo-yo’ing).

Hopefully that helps!

PS: thanks for the well wishes. It worked

Thank you for taking the time to answer. It is very helpful.

Congratulations on the nice buck!

 

[Watrdawg]

I recently went on a weight loss journey and now am in my maintenance phase. I've always been very physically fit but over the last few years I gained weight and for me it was just too much. I started cutting weight last December right after Christmas. I'm 5'5 and then weighed 196 and was at 26% body fat. I dropped 30lbs by May and went down to 12.7% body fat. My basal metabolic rate was about 1900 calories. Currently I'm at 170 and I keep my calories at 1900 give or take. I focus on keeping my protein intake at least 1 gram per pound of body weight and then carbs and fat are secondary. I eat as clean as possible. Basically proteins, vegetables and fruits. I haven't had anything out of a box or a bag since December. I stay away from processed foods as much as possible.

I work out every day in one way or another. If there is going to be a day or so of really high output then I increase my calories for that day only. I don't do so prior to or afterwards. Even then my thought process isn't that I have to have enough calories to cover that physical output. Now if I were going to be doing so over an extended period of time, 4-5 days etc. then yes I'm definitely increasing calories. My thought process , whether right or wrong, is long term maintenance goals and not to worry about short term needs so much.

 

[Block]

It’s not a race man.. make lifestyle changes to make this a permanent thing and not a YoYo. Figure out foods you enjoy that help you meet ur goals. sLOW and steady fat loss is best or you will lose muscle. Aim for a pound a week unless you are HUGE

 

[Larry Bartlett]

I'm perhaps in a different camp, so treading carefully here. Our hunt studies have shown what negative caloric balance and increased work load does for metabolic health, improved strength and weight loss. Hunters who consume 2000-2500 cals per day and burn an average 4500 cals per day (50% negative energy balance) not only lose fat mass, but they improve metabolic health and reduce visceral fat levels while becoming stronger and also commonly increase muscle mass and bone mass. Pre-season (all year) I believe most people eat more than they need, period. And what they eat translates to how it is utilized by the body and where excess calories are stored in house. Calories vs calories are not equal.

For reference I'm 189 lbs, 9.3% body fat and 25.5% BMI. My BMR is 2,225 cals per day. Maintenance for me is 2000-2500 daily, with a diet of 55% carbs, 20% fat and 25% protein (60/40 split between veggie / meat protein sources). If I'm heavy on exercise i eat more protein and whole grain carbs with loads of veggies for minerals and carbs. But I don't eat 1000 calorie fast food meal or bag of chips and soda.

I question a true BMR @ 2500 cals daily (30-day window of reality) by someone being 25-30% fat mass. somewhere in that reality we have to account for 20-lbs of body fat being equal to 70,000 spare calories being stored inside the body. Maybe the periods when running tens of miles a day you're daily energy requirement is temporarily more, but that's only a 24-36 hour window of calorie burn during and post exercise. I'd be willing to bet your true consistent BMR is closer to 2,000 cals (500 cals fewer per day = 3500 cals/week = 1 pound of body fat excess weight) but without the facts it's just based on experience testing human work physiology.

I also see folks who work out "heavy" and begin eating heavy when their bodies start to complain, but people continue to eat more with an operative that "because i'm working out I need to double calories." Not true at all and if your simultaneous goal is weight loss even less true. You can have both, strength and weight loss in one 30-day period...you just have to control what and how much you eat and burn excess calories without resupplying.

Try the same ramped up physical routines you mentioned and don't allow yourself to eat more than 2500 cals in one day, regardless of activity. Burn more than 3500 cals reserve in a week and lose 1 pound of body fat. Try this for 10-14 days to witness how it works. You can get stronger and be smaller, but you also have to change your relationship with food and beverages.

The last comment is more a question: where are you carrying and keeping weight? If it's between your breast and belt...excess alcohol, processed foods and sugar calories are most likely contributors.

Great thread and appreciate the banter. Good luck, Marbles.

 

[Marbles]

I'm perhaps in a different camp, so treading carefully here. Our hunt studies have shown what negative caloric balance and increased work load does for metabolic health, improved strength and weight loss. Hunters who consume 2000-2500 cals per day and burn an average 4500 cals per day (50% negative energy balance) not only lose fat mass, but they improve metabolic health and reduce visceral fat levels while becoming stronger and also commonly increase muscle mass and bone mass. Pre-season (all year) I believe most people eat more than they need, period. And what they eat translates to how it is utilized by the body and where excess calories are stored in house. Calories vs calories are not equal.

For reference I'm 189 lbs, 9.3% body fat and 25.5% BMI. My BMR is 2,225 cals per day. Maintenance for me is 2000-2500 daily, with a diet of 55% carbs, 20% fat and 25% protein (60/40 split between veggie / meat protein sources). If I'm heavy on exercise i eat more protein and whole grain carbs with loads of veggies for minerals and carbs. But I don't eat 1000 calorie fast food meal or bag of chips and soda.

I question a true BMR @ 2500 cals daily (30-day window of reality) by someone being 25-30% fat mass. somewhere in that reality we have to account for 20-lbs of body fat being equal to 70,000 spare calories being stored inside the body. Maybe the periods when running tens of miles a day you're daily energy requirement is temporarily more, but that's only a 24-36 hour window of calorie burn during and post exercise. I'd be willing to bet your true consistent BMR is closer to 2,000 cals (500 cals fewer per day = 3500 cals/week = 1 pound of body fat excess weight) but without the facts it's just based on experience testing human work physiology.

I also see folks who work out "heavy" and begin eating heavy when their bodies start to complain, but people continue to eat more with an operative that "because i'm working out I need to double calories." Not true at all and if your simultaneous goal is weight loss even less true. You can have both, strength and weight loss in one 30-day period...you just have to control what and how much you eat and burn excess calories without resupplying.

Try the same ramped up physical routines you mentioned and don't allow yourself to eat more than 2500 cals in one day, regardless of activity. Burn more than 3500 cals reserve in a week and lose 1 pound of body fat. Try this for 10-14 days to witness how it works. You can get stronger and be smaller, but you also have to change your relationship with food and beverages.

The last comment is more a question: where are you carrying and keeping weight? If it's between your breast and belt...excess alcohol, processed foods and sugar calories are most likely contributors.

Great thread and appreciate the banter. Good luck, Marbles.

At an average of 2010 calories per day a week I am loosing over a pound a week, that is with adding exercise calories back in once I go over a projected burn of 2520 for the day.

I carry fat well spread out, no beer gut, my pants are 30 inch wast and while tight they still fit, and visceral fat was well within healthy levels before I started cutting. My legs were 26% and change on fat. Total body fat was 24% and change (so top end of the healthy range). BMI was like 26.6.

Even when I crossed the 30% BMI threshold a few years ago I did not have a typical gut and was only wearing 34s.

For years I would eat well north of 5000 calories a day to trying to gain weight and couldn't. Problem was my activity slowed and as I got older and kept eating huge amounts I slowly added weight until I hit the official obes BMI range and told myself "hell no, something must change."

Some of the problem was buying into the BS of not using injured body parts and maintaining the push till you can't mentality, which caused injuries, that then resulted in inactivity. Two things needed to change, one don't hurt yourself for one run/activity, two back off but keep moving when something gets hurt and specifically keep using the injured body part.

Anyway, now I am wondering off topic.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Marbles, you got this!

Even when burning over your stated 2500 cals per day, consider not consuming more than 700 cals in one sitting (every meal) and try to avoid eating more than 3000 cals in one day (even when your burn is 5000-7000 kcals). Don't eat past 7pm. Small adjustments help train your metabolism. The longer you "train" your body to intake a lower amount than burned in a day and within each meal digestion period you'll be training your metabolism for a new long term normal routine.

As long as you are consuming enough protein for muscle strength and maintenance (1gm/kg/day) you'll get where you want to be physically on a lower calorie sustainment and have developed a plan than requires less calorie fuel.

Our studies helped me understand that muscle strength and actual muscle growth can occur without hyper protein or calorie intake. Many hunters we tested gain muscle mass during a 10-day window while operating on <2400 cals per day with protein intake no more than 1gm/kg/day. While this may be contrary to popular buff nutritional dialogue, data don't lie when its replicated by men and women of all adult ages (20-62 y/o) in the same scenarios.

 

[Marbles]

Marbles, you got this!

Even when burning over your stated 2500 cals per day, consider not consuming more than 700 cals in one sitting (every meal) and try to avoid eating more than 3000 cals in one day (even when your burn is 5000-7000 kcals). Don't eat past 7pm. Small adjustments help train your metabolism. The longer you "train" your body to intake a lower amount than burned in a day and within each meal digestion period you'll be training your metabolism for a new long term normal routine.

As long as you are consuming enough protein for muscle strength and maintenance (1gm/kg/day) you'll get where you want to be physically on a lower calorie sustainment and have developed a plan than requires less calorie fuel.

Our studies helped me understand that muscle strength and actual muscle growth can occur without hyper protein or calorie intake. Many hunters we tested gain muscle mass during a 10-day window while operating on <2400 cals per day with protein intake no more than 1gm/kg/day. While this may be contrary to popular buff nutritional dialogue, data don't lie when its replicated by men and women of all adult ages (20-62 y/o) in the same scenarios.

Thank you for the encouragement.

Historically I agreed with that over the past several years, and there is even an old thread were I argued for something similar. However on my last hunt I decided to try increasing my intake and I felt better than I ever have both mentally and physically while covering more mile with more weight in fewer days than I ever have.

I felt better on day 5 under a 100+ pound pack than I did an one day training hikes under 60 pounds during the summer with eating less. I had been training on low food intake for a few years prior to this.

I may play with lower consumption again, but it is a hard sell after that experience. I completely changed my nutrition strategy 2 weeks before the hunt after trialing it on a 110 pound, 1200 ft elevation gain over 1.1 miles (then back down) ruck and felt better than I normally did after similar (but lighter weight) training sessions over the summer.

I think in many things there are multiple good ways to get it done and sometimes different people in the same situation need a different strategy.