Looking for good cartridge and budget rifle for 14 y/o

[LongWayAround]

Sell the rifle that you've never shot and buy him something new.

Shotgun to rifle recoil isn't a valuable comparison. You're not precision shooting at ducks through an optic.

 

[xsn10s]

This is what i was wondering. He shoots an old 80’s 870 wing master with virtually no butt pad. How does that compare to 30/06 recoil?

Well they are different. For lack of a better description I'd say a 12GA has more lift on it's recoil. The 30-06 can be lighter recoiling but might be sharper. But if he's shooting a 870 with a hard butt pad then he can handle the 30-06. So you have a lot of options if that Win 670 shoots well. If you have any lighter kicking rifles you could let him shoot those and work him up to the 30-06. IMO I think a Win 670 is a better rifle than the Ruger Americans or the Savage Axis. A lighter kicking trainer would be good to have in addition to the Win 670. I'd have your buddy go through the Win 670 and if it shoots get a .223 trainer. Put a good recoil pad on the Win 670 and get out there hunting.

 

[ddowning]

I will go on a bit of a tirade here. I have 2 young girls that are 8 and 12. They have already become very successful shooters and hunters. They have made shots that I would have been jealous of 10 years ago and have killed some pretty nice bucks already. I really enjoy seeing kids hunting and shooting. It is one of the few things that doesn't use a screen and requires consistency, hard work, perseverance, problem solving, patience, and a lot of adversity. It really pains me to watch people introduce their kids to hunting and say they need to shoot grandpa's 30.06 or 12 gauge to "toughen them up." I also hate to see them try to draw a bow that is too heavy because they are "tough" and can handle it. It severely hampers their success.

I can shoot a hard kicking rifle. I HATE it! I don't shoot them nearly as well as less recoil. I was the guy that got asked to check everyone's 12 gauge slug gun because they had a flinch. The worst one was my buddies 300 win. when we were kids. It couldn't have weighed 8 lbs scoped. He couldn't get the scope zeroed. I shot 3 shots off the hood of the truck and printed about a 1.5" group at 100 yards. I measured and adjusted and put one bullet in the 2" sticker. I handed it back to him and said, "Don't ever ask me to shoot that again!"

If you have everyone hunting wear electronic muffs, you can communicate with hearing protection. Then install a good muzzle brake on whatever, and he can probably shoot it. My girls shoot A LOT. The oldest is 12 and about 75#. She tried to shoot a deer with a 20 gauge slug gun for years. The recoil was so bad she didn't even want to shoot at a deer. We bought a 350 legend and put a brake on it. She killed a deer at 215 yards that year. I believe she was 9. The youngest also killed a deer with that same rifle at 204 yards about 2 months later. She was 6. After that, we bought a 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloader. It has an obnoxious muzzle brake on it. The oldest has killed multiple deer with both the reduced load with a 300 grain bullet at 2050fps and a full load at 2650 fps. The youngest has been handling the lighter load since she was less than 50#. The brake makes all the difference. With the reduced load the recoil is about like a target load in a 20 gauge. With the faster load the recoil is about like a 3" turkey load in a 20 gauge or maybe a little more. It is all they want for the one shot it takes.

The state we live in is straight wall, muzzleloader, or bow only except for late antlerless season. We can use rifles then. We killed several deer during that season using 243 AI and 6.5 creed. The girls both shot a deer at roughly 450 yards with the 6.5 creedmoor. I used the 243AI to go 3 for 3 at 670, 640, and 610. You don't need big calibers with today's bullets and equipment.

My recommendation would be, if you don't reload already, get a 6 creed and run 108 eld factory ammo. Put a brake on it and use electronic muffs when you hunt. It will make your son more successful as a shooter when he isn't flinching from recoil. Don't EVER let him shoot without muffs and a brake. It will start a flinch just from the blast and noise.

A lot of people will tell you that a 6 creed doesn't have much recoil. A light pencil barrel 6 creed is going to have enough recoil to be disruptive to a small shooter. Even though my girls hunt with some guns that have some recoil, when they target shoot, they want to shoot the 22lr. That wins out over a braked 223. They will tell you recoil is the reason.

I would never try to teach even an adult to shoot a rifle with a hunting weight 30.06. I don't even like shooting a sub 10# 30.06 with no muzzle brake. Heavy recoiling cartridges are harder to shoot, even for guys that are very good shooters. Personally, the only time I would consider more than a 6mm or a 25 cal is if I needed the high bcs of the 7mm, 30, or 338 to keep the bullet above expansion velocity for some crazy long shot. I have personally never encountered that situation, but I know some have.

What the rokslide guys are doing with the 6um and short barrels I have done with the 243 Ackley and 26" barrels. It is crazy how easy it is to make shots and see hits. It is very common to have a deer crumple at 400-700 yards with the right 6mm bullet and enough velocity. I have not found a scenario where I considered shooting further than that at game.

Again, there is no reason to go above a 6 creed with factory 108 eldm for what you want to do. It will be the easy button. The only drawback is barrel life. It will be at least 1500 rounds. For some people that is only a few weekends of shooting. For others it is a lifetime. Please don't be tempted to have him shoot something with too much recoil. Many people suffer the effects even though it does not hurt their shoulder when they shoot.

 

[xsn10s]

30-06 Springfield 125 gr SST® Custom Lite® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

Low Recoil | HSM Ammunition

hsmammunition.com

 

[NM-F250]

Since you mentioned elk, I'd be looking for a 7-08. Another option would be a .270. He's not going to be a 130# 14yr old for very long.

 

[HappyHuntr]

I will go on a bit of a tirade here. I have 2 young girls that are 8 and 12. They have already become very successful shooters and hunters. They have made shots that I would have been jealous of 10 years ago and have killed some pretty nice bucks already. I really enjoy seeing kids hunting and shooting. It is one of the few things that doesn't use a screen and requires consistency, hard work, perseverance, problem solving, patience, and a lot of adversity. It really pains me to watch people introduce their kids to hunting and say they need to shoot grandpa's 30.06 or 12 gauge to "toughen them up." I also hate to see them try to draw a bow that is too heavy because they are "tough" and can handle it. It severely hampers their success.

I can shoot a hard kicking rifle. I HATE it! I don't shoot them nearly as well as less recoil. I was the guy that got asked to check everyone's 12 gauge slug gun because they had a flinch. The worst one was my buddies 300 win. when we were kids. It couldn't have weighed 8 lbs scoped. He couldn't get the scope zeroed. I shot 3 shots off the hood of the truck and printed about a 1.5" group at 100 yards. I measured and adjusted and put one bullet in the 2" sticker. I handed it back to him and said, "Don't ever ask me to shoot that again!"

If you have everyone hunting wear electronic muffs, you can communicate with hearing protection. Then install a good muzzle brake on whatever, and he can probably shoot it. My girls shoot A LOT. The oldest is 12 and about 75#. She tried to shoot a deer with a 20 gauge slug gun for years. The recoil was so bad she didn't even want to shoot at a deer. We bought a 350 legend and put a brake on it. She killed a deer at 215 yards that year. I believe she was 9. The youngest also killed a deer with that same rifle at 204 yards about 2 months later. She was 6. After that, we bought a 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloader. It has an obnoxious muzzle brake on it. The oldest has killed multiple deer with both the reduced load with a 300 grain bullet at 2050fps and a full load at 2650 fps. The youngest has been handling the lighter load since she was less than 50#. The brake makes all the difference. With the reduced load the recoil is about like a target load in a 20 gauge. With the faster load the recoil is about like a 3" turkey load in a 20 gauge or maybe a little more. It is all they want for the one shot it takes.

The state we live in is straight wall, muzzleloader, or bow only except for late antlerless season. We can use rifles then. We killed several deer during that season using 243 AI and 6.5 creed. The girls both shot a deer at roughly 450 yards with the 6.5 creedmoor. I used the 243AI to go 3 for 3 at 670, 640, and 610. You don't need big calibers with today's bullets and equipment.

My recommendation would be, if you don't reload already, get a 6 creed and run 108 eld factory ammo. Put a brake on it and use electronic muffs when you hunt. It will make your son more successful as a shooter when he isn't flinching from recoil. Don't EVER let him shoot without muffs and a brake. It will start a flinch just from the blast and noise.

A lot of people will tell you that a 6 creed doesn't have much recoil. A light pencil barrel 6 creed is going to have enough recoil to be disruptive to a small shooter. Even though my girls hunt with some guns that have some recoil, when they target shoot, they want to shoot the 22lr. That wins out over a braked 223. They will tell you recoil is the reason.

I would never try to teach even an adult to shoot a rifle with a hunting weight 30.06. I don't even like shooting a sub 10# 30.06 with no muzzle brake. Heavy recoiling cartridges are harder to shoot, even for guys that are very good shooters. Personally, the only time I would consider more than a 6mm or a 25 cal is if I needed the high bcs of the 7mm, 30, or 338 to keep the bullet above expansion velocity for some crazy long shot. I have personally never encountered that situation, but I know some have.

What the rokslide guys are doing with the 6um and short barrels I have done with the 243 Ackley and 26" barrels. It is crazy how easy it is to make shots and see hits. It is very common to have a deer crumple at 400-700 yards with the right 6mm bullet and enough velocity. I have not found a scenario where I considered shooting further than that at game.

Again, there is no reason to go above a 6 creed with factory 108 eldm for what you want to do. It will be the easy button. The only drawback is barrel life. It will be at least 1500 rounds. For some people that is only a few weekends of shooting. For others it is a lifetime. Please don't be tempted to have him shoot something with too much recoil. Many people suffer the effects even though it does not hurt their shoulder when they shoot.

Thank you!

 

[eric1115]

I will go on a bit of a tirade here. I have 2 young girls that are 8 and 12. They have already become very successful shooters and hunters. They have made shots that I would have been jealous of 10 years ago and have killed some pretty nice bucks already. I really enjoy seeing kids hunting and shooting. It is one of the few things that doesn't use a screen and requires consistency, hard work, perseverance, problem solving, patience, and a lot of adversity. It really pains me to watch people introduce their kids to hunting and say they need to shoot grandpa's 30.06 or 12 gauge to "toughen them up." I also hate to see them try to draw a bow that is too heavy because they are "tough" and can handle it. It severely hampers their success.

I can shoot a hard kicking rifle. I HATE it! I don't shoot them nearly as well as less recoil. I was the guy that got asked to check everyone's 12 gauge slug gun because they had a flinch. The worst one was my buddies 300 win. when we were kids. It couldn't have weighed 8 lbs scoped. He couldn't get the scope zeroed. I shot 3 shots off the hood of the truck and printed about a 1.5" group at 100 yards. I measured and adjusted and put one bullet in the 2" sticker. I handed it back to him and said, "Don't ever ask me to shoot that again!"

If you have everyone hunting wear electronic muffs, you can communicate with hearing protection. Then install a good muzzle brake on whatever, and he can probably shoot it. My girls shoot A LOT. The oldest is 12 and about 75#. She tried to shoot a deer with a 20 gauge slug gun for years. The recoil was so bad she didn't even want to shoot at a deer. We bought a 350 legend and put a brake on it. She killed a deer at 215 yards that year. I believe she was 9. The youngest also killed a deer with that same rifle at 204 yards about 2 months later. She was 6. After that, we bought a 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloader. It has an obnoxious muzzle brake on it. The oldest has killed multiple deer with both the reduced load with a 300 grain bullet at 2050fps and a full load at 2650 fps. The youngest has been handling the lighter load since she was less than 50#. The brake makes all the difference. With the reduced load the recoil is about like a target load in a 20 gauge. With the faster load the recoil is about like a 3" turkey load in a 20 gauge or maybe a little more. It is all they want for the one shot it takes.

The state we live in is straight wall, muzzleloader, or bow only except for late antlerless season. We can use rifles then. We killed several deer during that season using 243 AI and 6.5 creed. The girls both shot a deer at roughly 450 yards with the 6.5 creedmoor. I used the 243AI to go 3 for 3 at 670, 640, and 610. You don't need big calibers with today's bullets and equipment.

My recommendation would be, if you don't reload already, get a 6 creed and run 108 eld factory ammo. Put a brake on it and use electronic muffs when you hunt. It will make your son more successful as a shooter when he isn't flinching from recoil. Don't EVER let him shoot without muffs and a brake. It will start a flinch just from the blast and noise.

A lot of people will tell you that a 6 creed doesn't have much recoil. A light pencil barrel 6 creed is going to have enough recoil to be disruptive to a small shooter. Even though my girls hunt with some guns that have some recoil, when they target shoot, they want to shoot the 22lr. That wins out over a braked 223. They will tell you recoil is the reason.

I would never try to teach even an adult to shoot a rifle with a hunting weight 30.06. I don't even like shooting a sub 10# 30.06 with no muzzle brake. Heavy recoiling cartridges are harder to shoot, even for guys that are very good shooters. Personally, the only time I would consider more than a 6mm or a 25 cal is if I needed the high bcs of the 7mm, 30, or 338 to keep the bullet above expansion velocity for some crazy long shot. I have personally never encountered that situation, but I know some have.

What the rokslide guys are doing with the 6um and short barrels I have done with the 243 Ackley and 26" barrels. It is crazy how easy it is to make shots and see hits. It is very common to have a deer crumple at 400-700 yards with the right 6mm bullet and enough velocity. I have not found a scenario where I considered shooting further than that at game.

Again, there is no reason to go above a 6 creed with factory 108 eldm for what you want to do. It will be the easy button. The only drawback is barrel life. It will be at least 1500 rounds. For some people that is only a few weekends of shooting. For others it is a lifetime. Please don't be tempted to have him shoot something with too much recoil. Many people suffer the effects even though it does not hurt their shoulder when they shoot.

This is the tirade that so many dads need to hear. I literally have a draft of a post I'm titling "the kids' rifle manifesto" that is along these lines, as I find myself giving advice along these lines over and over again. Thank you!

 

[HappyHuntr]

This is the tirade that so many dads need to hear. I literally have a draft of a post I'm titling "the kids' rifle manifesto" that is along these lines, as I find myself giving advice along these lines over and over again. Thank you!

Sounds good!

 

[xsn10s]

This is what i was wondering. He shoots an old 80’s 870 wing master with virtually no butt pad. How does that compare to 30/06 recoil?

I own a Remington 870 and have been to their armorer's school. I also own a Winchester M70 Featherweight in 30-06, which is pretty much the lighter version of your Win 670. The 870 with a hard buttpad or no buttpad is going to recoil equal or more than the 30-06.

 

[Rich M]

I was gonna ask why you didn't expose him to rifles sooner, then you said you don't shoot rifles.

That M70 will probably kick like a mule - mine does. Sell it and use the proceeds to buy a 243, 6 CM, 7.62x39, 300 BO, Grendel, or other light kicker will be more fun for both of you to learn with.

 

[xsn10s]

I don't think the Winchester M70 kicks hard at all. Since the OP's son already shoots an 870 for duck hunting with little to no buttpad I say let him try the 30-06 with the lightest recoiling ammo the OP can find.

 

[Rich M]

I own a Remington 870 and have been to their armorer's school. I also own a Winchester M70 Featherweight in 30-06, which is pretty much the lighter version of your Win 670. The 870 with a hard buttpad or no buttpad is going to recoil equal or more than the 30-06.

You don't shoot an 870/12 ga off a bench or rest and absorb all the recoil, you are usually standing and flex with it. That's why so many turkey hunters scope themselves and have bloody pictures.

I had a choice of a M70 FW or All Weather - went stainless but I think the FW is better balanced for shooting. FWiW, i hate shooting my 3006, been flinching from that thing since the 70's. It is ingrained and I'm good at it. Give me the opportunity to really focus and can hit a quarter at 250 yds, put an animal in front of me and ask for muscle memory type shooting and I miss every time. Don't like that gun at all.

Mine has broken a Leica and a Leupold VX-3i scopes. Shooting 150s at 2900 fps off sand bags. Brutal recoil. Buddy has 300mag and I can shoot that thing all day, my 3006 I take a beach towel and fold it up to protect shoulder.

OP should not be asking kid to use it.

 

[Hunter Mike]

Ruger American Predator in 6.5CM.

Got this for my son and like it so much I’ve been using it too. I had some shoulder issues and the low-recoil of 6.5 CM has been way better to shoot.

 

[xsn10s]

You don't shoot an 870/12 ga off a bench or rest and absorb all the recoil, you are usually standing and flex with it. That's why so many turkey hunters scope themselves and have bloody pictures.

I had a choice of a M70 FW or All Weather - went stainless but I think the FW is better balanced for shooting. FWiW, i hate shooting my 3006, been flinching from that thing since the 70's. It is ingrained and I'm good at it. Give me the opportunity to really focus and can hit a quarter at 250 yds, put an animal in front of me and ask for muscle memory type shooting and I miss every time. Don't like that gun at all.

Mine has broken a Leica and a Leupold VX-3i scopes. Shooting 150s at 2900 fps off sand bags. Brutal recoil. Buddy has 300mag and I can shoot that thing all day, my 3006 I take a beach towel and fold it up to protect shoulder.

OP should not be asking kid to use it.

I've shot my 870 plenty of times and shoot my M70 off the bench with stiff handloads 180gr-200gr loads. And mine is a Featherweight and I don't find the recoil all that bad. If the OP gets some low recoiling ammo that would be the best. This reduced recoil ammo would kick less than a 6.5 CM. Then he could move up to standard 150 gr loads which wouldn't be much more than a 308 win.

30-06 Springfield 125 gr SST® Custom Lite® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

 

[xsn10s]

Have you all read that the OP's son has been hunting ducks with a Rem 870 12GA with little to no buttpad? Duck loads aren't light. Which suggests to me he can handle a 30-06. Especially in the lighter loads. It would be best to get a Sims buttpad which would make the recoil even less than the 870.

 

[LongWayAround]

Have you all read that the OP's son has been hunting ducks with a Rem 870 12GA with little to no buttpad? Duck loads aren't light. Which suggests to me he can handle a 30-06. Especially in the lighter loads. It would be best to get a Sims buttpad which would make the recoil even less than the 870.

Yea. Read that. Shotgun recoil is not the same as rifle recoil. Point and shoot wearing heavy layers is a vastly different process than precision aiming a scoped rifle.

This guy's kid is a novice, not an experienced shooter. If he wants to learn good habits and become proficient, less recoil is more conducive to that.

My dad would say that he doesn't think his 7mag recoils badly. He also flinches like a mofo...

Your reduced recoil loads are probably an ok compromise if the OP wants to. Otherwise, there's better options.

 

[xsn10s]

Yea. Read that. Shotgun recoil is not the same as rifle recoil. Point and shoot wearing heavy layers is a vastly different process than precision aiming a scoped rifle.

This guy's kid is a novice, not an experienced shooter. If he wants to learn good habits and become proficient, less recoil is more conducive to that.

My dad would say that he doesn't think his 7mag recoils badly. He also flinches like a mofo...

Your reduced recoil loads are probably an ok compromise if the OP wants to. Otherwise, there's better options.

LOL ok well I don't flinch and like I said the reduced recoil loads would recoil less than the 6.5 CM. One guy on midwayusa reviews uses it for his girls and they kill whitetails with it. But whatever lol.

 

[HappyHuntr]

Have you all read that the OP's son has been hunting ducks with a Rem 870 12GA with little to no buttpad? Duck loads aren't light. Which suggests to me he can handle a 30-06. Especially in the lighter loads. It would be best to get a Sims buttpad which would make the recoil even less than the 870.

Thanks man i will look into light recoil loads for 30/06. I think he does think it will kick him hard so i wonder if psychologically that might hurt him. I having feeling he would be max confidence behind a 243. I would like something maybe bigger than 243 though because you never know when that long shot comes up and you need some KE. What about 308, 270, or 6.5 prc?

 

[HappyHuntr]

Are those manageable recoil?

 

[xsn10s]

Thanks man i will look into light recoil loads for 30/06. I think he does think it will kick him hard so i wonder if psychologically that might hurt him. I having feeling he would be max confidence behind a 243. I would like something maybe bigger than 243 though because you never know when that long shot comes up and you need some KE. What about 308, 270, or 6.5 prc?

Many of my friends (when they were kids) hunted with a 308 win for deer and elk with a 308 win. The 270 Win with 130 gr bullets can be manageable. 6.5 PRC is higher velocity than the 6.5 CM so the 6.5 CM would be a better option than it right now. But again the then 6.5 CM which would kick less than the 308 win, 270, or the 6.5 PRC, would stil kick more than the reduced recoil ammo I posted in 30-06. That ammo sends a 125gr SST bullet and 2700 fps at the muzzle. And still would kill deer out to 300 yards. Do you own any other rifles?