Long Range Rifle Questions

[Jake Larsen]

I did not say WE or YOU have to take him at his word. That's up to you if you think what he said is not the experience he is speaking from. I said I take him at his word and see no reason he would not tell it straight from his experience.

I found that to be a bit of an odd statement as well…we’re all just internet strangers who are taking each other at their word lol. It’s pretty easy to read a few posts from somebody and tell if they are speaking from real world experience or from mommas basement.

There are a few well known members on here with lots of experience whose opinions on certain things are sacred cows. In many of those cases, those opinions are backed up by testing and lots of real world feedback. Doesn’t mean every knowledgeable and experienced person agrees with them, and some are truly just a matter of opinion. I think most of us would be great friends in real life, and for the most part, the disagreements are over pretty minor details.


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[Formidilosus]

The issue is that ELD-M and Bergers don’t exhibit that much variability. In hundreds of animals, and hundreds to thousands of test shots into calibrated gel through barriers, at no point has even one heavy for caliber ELD-M or Berger “blew up” or failed to penetrate 10-12”- and that’s through auto glass at 15 feet. Bergers, ELD-M, and all other bullets do sometimes fail to upset at times- with ELD-M’s it is low velocity impacts.

We never get to see necropsies of these magical “shoulders” that stop bullets. Every single time someone I have been with has claimed the “bullet blew up on the shoulder, and didn’t penetrate it”, when we recovered the animal, the bullet did not blow up- it simply wasn’t placed where they swore it was. Take that same elk that the “bullet blew up on”, hang it up and shoot it through the shoulder- do you actually think the bullet isn’t getting into the lungs?

I want to see it happen. I haven’t been able to make it happen with a lot of animals killed so far. The 22UM should be hitting 3,500+ fps MV with 77-88gr tipped match bullets. Maybe at contact range with that, a shoulder will finally stop one….. though I doubt it.

 

[Jake Larsen]

The issue is that ELD-M and Bergers don’t exhibit that much variability. In hundreds of animals, and hundreds to thousands of test shots into calibrated gel through barriers, at no point has even one heavy for caliber ELD-M or Berger “blew up” or failed to penetrate 10-12”- and that’s through auto glass at 15 feet. Bergers, ELD-M, and all other bullets do sometimes fail to upset at times- with ELD-M’s it is low velocity impacts.

We never get to see necropsies of these magical “shoulders” that stop bullets. Every single time someone I have been with has claimed the “bullet blew up on the shoulder, and didn’t penetrate it”, when we recovered the animal, the bullet did not blow up- it simply wasn’t placed where they swore it was. Take that same elk that the “bullet blew up on”, hang it up and shoot it through the shoulder- do you actually think the bullet isn’t getting into the lungs?

I want to see it happen. I haven’t been able to make it happen with a lot of animals killed so far. The 22UM should be hitting 3,500+ fps MV with 77-88gr tipped match bullets. Maybe at contact range with that, a shoulder will finally stop one….. though I doubt it.

You’ve clearly done or had access to a lot of formal testing on these bullets. I’m not going to pretend I’ve done the same, all I can report is what I’ve seen on game animals.

One thing I do think gets missed is this: there’s bias in the “field data” because many/most of the time when a shot doesn’t go well, the animal isn’t recovered. So we’re ALL guessing about what happened in those cases. As you mentioned, at least some of the time it’s because the shot was not placed where the shooter intended. The next time I see it happen, I’ll be sure to photo the crap out of it, but I’ve seen what i previously described. That shot killed the animal, there was definitely 10-12 inches of penetration. But the bullet was highly fragmented, after impacting the knuckle of the shoulder. Massive tissue damage/fragmentation in front of and around the bone, and chunks of bone blasted all over, but much less tissue damage behind that point in the lungs. And the dang bull went several miles before he died. In that same shot again, would a piece of bullet or bone get blasted through his lungs and he tip over in 100 yards? Would a Nosler partition have dropped him? I cannot say for sure, but it’s these kinds of experiences that make me lean toward tougher bullets for moderate/close range shots. I don’t see the drawback of those bullets if a shooter isn’t setup/interested/capable of shots past 5-600 yards.

Another point: I personally prefer the wound channel created by controlled expansion bullets. I’ve seen both a lot. I like what I see with a Sierra TGK or Nosler Accubond a lot better than a Berger or ELDM. I realize the match bullets are doing far more tissue damage, which is what kills. That’s exactly why I don’t like them…if I drift my shot a little forward, or the animal is quartered away slightly, goodbye many pounds of meat. I really like to eat wild game haha.


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[Timberline001]

You’ve clearly done or had access to a lot do formal testing on these bullets. I’m not going to pretend I’ve done the same, all I can report is what I’ve seen on game animals.

One thing I do think gets missed is this: there’s bias in the “field data” because many/most of the time when a shot doesn’t go well, the animal isn’t recovered. So we’re ALL guessing about what happened in those cases. As you mentioned, at least some of the time it’s because the shot was not placed where the shooter intended. The next time I see it happen, I’ll be sure to photo the crap out of it, but I’ve seen what i previously described. That shot killed the animal, there was definitely 10-12 inches of penetration. But the bullet was highly fragmented, after impacting the knuckle of the shoulder. Massive tissue damage in front of and around the bone, but much less behind that point in the lungs. And the dang bull went several miles before he died. Would a Nosler partition have dropped him? I cannot say for sure, but it’s these kinds of experiences that make me lean toward tougher bullets for moderate/close range shots. I don’t see the drawback of those bullets if a shooter isn’t setup/interested/capable of shots past 5-600 yards.

Another point: I personally prefer the wound channel created by controlled expansion bullets. I’ve seen both a lot. I like what I see with a Sierra TGK or Nosler Accubond a lot better than a Berger or ELDM. I realize the match bullets are doing far more tissue damage, which is what kills. That’s exactly why I don’t like them…if I drift my shot a little forward, or the animal is quartered away slightly, goodbye many pounds of meat. I really like to eat wild game haha.


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Those are all good points. I don’t think many would argue that there’s better tools for the job if you’re not shooting over 500 yards. However, this is the long range forum and I think most agree long range starts past 500. That’s where the ELDms and bergers shine. They get the job done at all ranges while a controlled expansion bullet does not have the velocity needed to expand at long range.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Those are all good points. I don’t think many would argue that there’s better tools for the job if you’re not shooting over 500 yards. However, this is the long range forum and I think most agree long range starts past 500. That’s where the ELDms and bergers shine. They get the job done at all ranges while a controlled expansion bullet does not have the velocity needed to expand at long range.

I would agree with all of that 100%, as I stated earlier, I use those bullets for my dedicated long range rigs for that exact reason…the reason the bullet selection topic came up is because I was asking OP to clarify what he was trying to accomplish with his “long range” setup. Based on his initial post, a 600 yard shot would be roughly doubling his current effective range. Does he consider that “long range”? I made the point early on, that if he’s just trying to extent his range to include 4-600 yard shots, it’s a different ball game than extending beyond 600 ish. For guys who have been at this for a while, 600-1000 doesn’t seem like that big of a deal, but I’ve realized over time that for many shooters, “long range” just means extending from 300-400 yard max effective range to 500-600.

OP expresses a desire to not spend a lot of unnecessary money on his rig. If he can decide some build parameters around his desired max effective range, It could save him a lot of money. If he builds a 1000 yard elk slaying super duper magnum magnum, and all he really wanted was to be comfortable taking a 550 yard shot, he will have spent a lot of money he didn’t need to, and may not even be all that happy with the way it performs for most of his hunting.


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[Timberline001]

I would agree with that…the reason the bullet selection topic came up is because I was asking OP to clarify what he was trying to accomplish with his “long range” setup. Based on his initial post, a 600 yard shot would be roughly doubling his current effective range. Does he consider that “long range”? I made the point early on, that if he’s just trying to extent his range to include 4-600 yard shots, it’s a different ball game than extending beyond 600 ish. For guys who have been at this for a while, 600-1000 doesn’t seem like that big of a deal, but I’ve realized over time that for many shooters, “long range” just means extending from 300-400 yard max effective range to 500-600.


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For sure.

 

[BurtonGus]

The Seekins rifles are very nice, my long range setup is a Seekins havak element 6.5 creedmoor.

Very nice. I held the element and it was crazy light.
Are you shooting elk over 500+ with the 6.5CM?

 

[BurtonGus]

Wow! I was not expecting so many response and all the advice. Thank you all!


As far as a scope goes, I have a Leupold VX-6HD 3-18x44 Firedot reticle. Before I joined this forum, I thought this scope was the Cadillac of scopes. And for myself at this moment, it will be. I have been eyeing some Trijicons that are on sale on OpticsPlanet.

As far as the rifle for purpose: I think 500-600 yard shots on animals would be incredible for the next few years. But I would eventually like to practice and possibly hunt out to 800. The reason why I am putting so much thought into the rifle is because I don’t know that I’ll have the funds/rationale to buy another expensive setup in a few years. I have a wife and son (hopefully more children on the way) and I have to be a good steward of my finances.


So what I’m gathering (correct me if I’m wrong) is that a 6.5CM would be plenty for animals out to 500 yards, including elk, and the projectile is highly debatable haha.


Shooting school is a great idea and I’ll take recommendations for some in Arizona.

I still have to decide if I want to go with an already setup rifle like the Seekins, or build up a sporter rifle over time.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Very nice. I held the element and it was crazy light.
Are you shooting elk over 500+ with the 6.5CM?

I havnt shot any animals with it, I got it back in mid December so I havnt had it that long. I’ve shot some rocks and steel out to 600 with it though.

I’m hoping to use it this season on some blacktails and black bear.

 

[TaperPin]

So what I’m gathering (correct me if I’m wrong) is that a 6.5CM would be plenty for animals out to 500 yards, including elk, and the projectile is highly debatable haha.

I’ll throw out something that doesn’t get talked about nearly enough, yet every long range shooter has to deal with, and that’s the importance of wind drift, or more precisely wind estimation error. These two printouts are for a 140 gr Accubond out of. A 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 PRC. There’s a MOA of difference between them in wind drift at 600 yards.

While a MOA doesn’t seem like it would matter, at that distance once your personal wind estimation error is factored in, you can’t be off by much with either cartridge. I’ve grown up shooting in the wind and I’m not great at it, but on a good day I’ll be off by 20%. Factor in rifle accuracy and that puts my shots on the ragged edge of being inside a 10” kill zone at distance with light wind - at 600 yards and a 10 mph wind it puts me over and I literally should pass on the shot with the PRC. The Creedmoor causes a few more inches of error at that distance.

People tend to shoot in good weather and hope for easy shots, but when the shot is in bad weather with difficult wind, the flatter a cartridge shoots the better.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

So what I’m gathering (correct me if I’m wrong) is that a 6.5CM would be plenty for animals out to 500 yards, including elk, and the projectile is highly debatable haha.

yes to 500, no to the projectile being debatable. Heavy for caliber ELDm's and TMK's are the max tissue damage options that also reliably penetrate through the depth of the vitals.

6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....

Seeing that the 223 thread is such a success, I thought maybe I would start one for the Creedmoor/260. Seems like people are asking a lot about using them and various bullets, especially for elk. I've used mine for the last few years almost exclusively. I have some pics of bullet damage, albeit...

rokslide.com

6mm/6.5

I didn't want to derail another thread. So I started this one. Who has shot/witnessed a big game animal past 500 yards with a 6mm or 6.5? Many members here love to tell you their opinion about it, but I am figuring out that damn few have done it. So if you have, please tell me the chambering...

rokslide.com

 

[35WhelenAI]

Full circle on best bullet criteria from a century ago... heavy for caliber (SD to the crowd that may only know BC) to overcome frangible designs so there is enough bullet weight left at closer range to reach the vitals after rendering unedible a good amount of meat. Yet less explosive expansion at longer range/lower velocity that ruins about the same meat as bullets at longer range within their expansion window did said century ago.

 

[TaperPin]

Full circle on best bullet criteria from a century ago... heavy for caliber (SD to the crowd that may only know BC) to overcome frangible designs so there is enough bullet weight left at closer range to reach the vitals after rendering unedible a good amount of meat. Yet less explosive expansion at longer range/lower velocity that ruins about the same meat as bullets at longer range within their expansion window did said century ago.

Exactly right!

Light calibers for elk also aren‘t all that new. In the early 80’s I thought it was a new thing when Bob Milek was writing about shooting elk with his 25-06 and regular Remington ammo, so it was a surprise that the 257 Roberts has been doing that since the 1930’s and the 250 Savage a few decades before that.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Pictures or it didn't happen? I would take a guy at his word on what he saw as a guide, but I'm about as far from having a dog in this fight as could be, I shoot monos from a medium bore.

It's not that I don't trust him to tell the truth of an event that he saw, such as someone either shot or shot at an elk and it did not die. I don't trust people, even guides, to accurately determine the reason that thing happened especially when the animal was never recovered. Guides have a really awesome set of skills that I envy but an up-to-date understanding of terminal ballistics is not necessarily one of them.

So what I’m gathering (correct me if I’m wrong) is that a 6.5CM would be plenty for animals out to 500 yards, including elk

Yes it would be plenty and also, to put it bluntly, a 300WM would likely cripple your ability to progress as a shooter. You'll never find a magnum owner that will admit they flinch but an astoundingly large percentage of them do. Internet tough guys will tell you it's just a new generation of pansies and that the recoil/concussion doesn't bother them because they're real men. But the reality is almost no one shoots heavy magnums as well as they do lighter recoiling cartridges and almost every magnum shooter I've ever seen flinches, especially after 10+ rounds.

 

[bpctcb]

I’ll throw out something that doesn’t get talked about nearly enough, yet every long range shooter has to deal with, and that’s the importance of wind drift, or more precisely wind estimation error. These two printouts are for a 140 gr Accubond out of. A 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 PRC. There’s a MOA of difference between them in wind drift at 600 yards.

While a MOA doesn’t seem like it would matter, at that distance once your personal wind estimation error is factored in, you can’t be off by much with either cartridge. I’ve grown up shooting in the wind and I’m not great at it, but on a good day I’ll be off by 20%. Factor in rifle accuracy and that puts my shots on the ragged edge of being inside a 10” kill zone at distance with light wind - at 600 yards and a 10 mph wind it puts me over and I literally should pass on the shot with the PRC. The Creedmoor causes a few more inches of error at that distance.

People tend to shoot in good weather and hope for easy shots, but when the shot is in bad weather with difficult wind, the flatter a cartridge shoots the better.

Thank you for posting this! I feel this often gets overlooked when choosing a big game cartridge & ammo. Here are some common examples of cartridges and ammo choices for comparison:

Black Hills 5.56 77 TMK at 2750 fps & bc .420

Hornady 6mm creedmoor 108 ELD-M at 2960 fps & bc .536

Hornady 6.5 creedmoor 147 ELD-M at 2695 fps & bc .696

Hornady 6.5 PRC 147 ELD-M at 2910 fps & bc .696

Hornady 7mm PRC 180 ELD-M at 2975 fps & bc .796

Hornady 300 PRC 225 ELD-M at 2810 fps & bc .777

If you run these through a ballistics app you will see some meaningful differences in wind drift; especially as distance increases.
I believe most people would be well served by picking the best cartridge & ammo choice that you can consistently accurately shoot from field positions.
This will vary by person and the rifle they choose, but I feel the sweet spot lies around a 6.5 PRC or 7mm PRC for western big game hunting.

BP

 

[Scudmaster]

For what its worth. If your rifle will shoot a good heavy for caliber bullet (ie ELD-X or CX) under a MOA, spend the money on Good scope with elevation turret and FFP Retical and training. A good class will generally pay for itself with saved ammo in DIY learning. Go in with an open mind and be willing to apply the lessons and it will be money well spent. Check Modern Day Sniper Precision Hunter Course.

 

[TaperPin]

This will vary by person and the rifle they choose, but I feel the sweet spot lies around a 6.5 PRC or 7mm PRC for western big game hunting.

BP

Well said. If I were buying a new hunter a western rifle package it would be a 243 trainer and 6.5 PRC. The 7 PRC is even better if the person shoots it well. 95% of the time over the years I’ve carried a 7mag and it always works well on everything from antelope to elk.

 

[Clark33]

Made a little video of my range session with the Element in 6 creedmoor yesterday. Ignore my video editing skills or lack there of. Got an ultra 7 suppressor on it now and just wanted to verify my dope a little. Taking it on a spring bear hunt here in a couple weeks.

Hornady Match 108gr avg 2890fps in the 21" barrel with the Ultra 7 on.
Shooting prone with bipod and rear bag, NF NXS 2.5-10x42

 

[Jake Larsen]

Made a little video of my range session with the Element in 6 creedmoor yesterday. Ignore my video editing skills or lack there of. Got an ultra 7 suppressor on it now and just wanted to verify my dope a little. Taking it on a spring bear hunt here in a couple weeks.

Hornady Match 108gr avg 2890fps in the 21" barrel with the Ultra 7 on.
Shooting prone with bipod and rear bag, NF NXS 2.5-10x42

That’s a sweet rig man. I’ve been eyeing a 6 Creed build myself.


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[JohnJohnson]

Made a little video of my range session with the Element in 6 creedmoor yesterday. Ignore my video editing skills or lack there of. Got an ultra 7 suppressor on it now and just wanted to verify my dope a little. Taking it on a spring bear hunt here in a couple weeks.

Hornady Match 108gr avg 2890fps in the 21" barrel with the Ultra 7 on.
Shooting prone with bipod and rear bag, NF NXS 2.5-10x42

Pretty insensitive of you to post this when I just tied all of my money up on something else and can't afford one right now.