Lobbying Wyoming game and fish negatively affecting non-resident elk hunters

[bsnedeker]

Everyone is selfish to an extent unfortunately, that’s human nature, just like you want to keep the more opportunities limited to residents and bar nonresidents. That’s an understandable albeit selfish position.

We have to take a step back both as residents and nonresidents and keep the big picture in mind.

I've never said any such thing. I've never said I want to decrease NR opportunity or ban them. I think it's a real bummer that it is happening. I wish we lived in a world where we had the resources for everyone to have the same opportunities that I do.

Unfortunately that is not the the world we live in. We have a very clear supply and demand problem. States have the right, and in my opinion, an OBLIGATION to set tag allocations in a way that benefit that state and the residents of that state.

That is what I have said consistently throughout this thread. I happily advocate and donate my time and money for things I have never, nor will I ever have an opportunity to hunt because I love the outdoors and I love wildlife. If I lost my ability to run an arrow through an elk I would still think they are one of the most amazing things on the planet and I would fight to help them thrive and survive.

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[Rifleman86]

I feel like we talking past each other.

I have only lived in Montana and Wyoming. I'm middle aged and have two young kids. I've hunted my entire life. We camp every year on forest service and BLM land, I've drawn a buffalo tag. My NR brother, who is an accomplished hunter, came along, without his own tag, and still says it was his favorite hunt of his life. Because of the comradory. I go to montana every fall without a tag in my pocket to go along, for the comradory. My enjoyment is not predicated on getting a trophy. Each year I go out of state to hike wilderness simply because it it beautiful country and my phone dosent ring.

@Bighorner I grew up going to MT, I loved the landscape, the people, etc. I always assumed as a kid what I gathered on outdoor TV at the time, that it was just like Ohio, mostly private land, you needed to stay at some ranch or pay some outfitter if you wanted to come hunt. I’d always loved hunting but western hunting seemed to be this thing out of reach. Not many people I knew hunted period, not even my family, certainly none of them hunted the west. This was in the days long before the internet.

It wasn’t until I was an adult in my early 30s that I realized that wasn’t the case, that I could in fact enjoy the wildlife for a attainable price, and the landscape for free. I drew an Antelope tag and it was one of the more life changing experiences I’ve had. I listed to books about the history conservation on my drive out. I’d never realized what people had done before me to preserve such places for me and my progeny. I felt regret I didn’t realize or appreciate the public land opportunities prior to that, my life, family and career were well established in the east at that point.

I also shortly thereafter realized that there were some very real and powerful voices at the national level trying to destroy this thing that I loved. People that wanted to sell it all to private owners, develop it, etc. Many of those people were folks I would otherwise be politically aligned with, and had I not experienced those landscapes as a hunter, I might not have ever cared, and if fact I might have supported their goals.

I hope to one day retire in the west. Hell I plan to have my ashes spread there at the very least. Like you, the landscapes and the animals mean a lot to me. We share that passion and that’s a good thing.

We also share the desire that we don’t want those landscapes ruined, either from development, over hunting, or even overuse from other types recreation. I want to keep them the way I experienced them, otherwise they will lose value and what makes them special to all of us.

Due to that desire I realize my opportunities to hunt unfortunately need to be limited, especially compared to a resident.

But I also realize because I did have those opportunities it made me much more of an advocate than I would have been otherwise, and those opportunities need to continue for people who live across this great nation so that we keep creating people that feel the same way I now do, regardless if it happens to be me who draws the tag. In fact I will likely come hunt without a tag next year and have just as much if not more fun.

So I appreciate exactly where you and many residents are coming from. With population increase, migration, etc you have seen things change and not necessarily for the better. I don’t want that either, but I also realize that I probably wouldn’t care about protecting the same things you care about if I hadn’t experienced it either.

 

[BuzzH]

At this point you are being purposely obtuse. Of course I still care about wildlife I can’t hunt or don’t want to hunt, but acknowledging human nature, NR to play a role at the national level in conservation and a big part of that is they have had opportunities to experience what other states have to offer.

I wouldn’t give a shit about public lands, elk, or other wildlife if I never had the opportunity to hunt them.

When the NR opportunities dwindle to almost nothing, cost so much that only the wealthy elite can come and hunt, conservation will be in a sad state.

I appreciate your honesty that you don't care about public land or wildlife unless you can kill an animal on it.

Fascinating...and definitely not part of my human nature or how I value public land and wildife.

 

[Rifleman86]

I appreciate your honesty that you don't care about public land or wildlife unless you can kill an animal on it.

Fascinating...and definitely not part of my human nature or how I value public land and wildife.

That was (I acknowledge) poorly worded. See my post above.

You were blessed to grow up around it. Unfortunately I wasn’t. I wasn’t raised in a hunting family, I didn’t grow up out west. I didn’t know I cared until I had the right experiences. I look back on that now and realize why sharing those experiences is valuable to all of us in the long run.

 

[BuzzH]

Acknowledge the fact what I wrote was poorly worded. Just stating that giving more opportunities helps create more advocates. That’s pretty undeniable.

Right, and the best and most vocal advocates for wildlife life/public lands, by a large margin, are those living closest to it.

I'm simply not seeing the level of advocates that you and others contend Western States should be enjoying for the generosity of the tags we've given.

That's not to say that there aren't some very great advocates of both public lands and wildlife from places far removed from the West. I would expect to be seeing a significantly higher level of support/advocacy considering the number of NR tags Wyoming, Montana, Colorado, etc. have doled out the last 25 years.

What I do see, is that every time a NR fee is raised, a quota is dropped, etc. every NR on every hunting board absolutely losing their minds.

Its telling, to say the least...and pretty clear where their level of advocacy starts, and more importantly, ends.

 

[Rifleman86]

Right, and the best and most vocal advocates for wildlife life/public lands, by a large margin, are those living closest to it.

I'm simply not seeing the level of advocates that you and others contend Western States should be enjoying for the generosity of the tags we've given.

That's not to say that there aren't some very great advocates of both public lands and wildlife from places far removed from the West. I would expect to be seeing a significantly higher level of support/advocacy considering the number of NR tags Wyoming, Montana, Colorado, etc. have doled out the last 25 years.

What I do see, is that every time a NR fee is raised, a quota is dropped, etc. every NR on every hunting board absolutely losing their minds.

Its telling, to say the least.

There are probably just as high of a percentage of resident hunters that don’t give a shit or lift a finger as NR hunters. Proximity absolutely makes advocacy a lot easier on the local level. I would’ve loved to come to Helena and spoken when HB 637 was getting shoved through the legislature but it was a little tough as I was in Kuwait at the time. Instead I wrote emails to every single state senator to no avail.

Furthermore to say “every time a quota is reduced, a fee increased, I see hunting boards lose their mind but I don’t see advocacy” is horse shit. What exactly are we supposed to do? Raise hell with legislators that we didn’t elect and don’t have to listen to us? You’ve said yourself they shouldn’t. Wildlife is managed for state residents and that’s it after all.

I already spend close to 2k a year in nonresident licenses and points, on top of being a member of numerous national conservation organizations, but according to you I don’t matter, and shouldn’t get a say. The icing on the cake is then getting told we’re all the selfish ones.

I expect that attitude from a lot of folks on this board, but not from leadership within one of the top DIY hunting conservation organizations.

 

[BuzzH]

There are probably just as high of a percentage of resident hunters that don’t give a shit or lift a finger as NR hunters. Proximity absolutely makes advocacy a lot easier on the local level. I would’ve loved to come to Helena and spoken when HB 637 was getting shoved through the legislature but it was a little tough as I was in Kuwait at the time. Instead I wrote emails to every single state senator to no avail.

Furthermore to say “every time a quota is reduced, a fee increased, I see hunting boards lose their mind but I don’t see advocacy” is horse shit. What exactly are we supposed to do? Raise hell with legislators that we didn’t elect and don’t have to listen to us? You’ve said yourself they shouldn’t. Wildlife is managed for state residents and that’s it after all.

I already spend close to 2k a year in nonresident licenses and points, on top of being a member of numerous national conservation organizations, but according to you I don’t matter, and shouldn’t get a say.

I expect that attitude from a lot of folks on this board, but not from leadership within one of the top DIY hunting conservation organizations.

You're wrong, I have fully supported anyone wanting to comment on anything they want. That includes public lands, wildlife in all 50 states, etc.

That includes nr anti hunters showing up to commission meetings asking the commission to ban trapping, ban wolf hunting, etc.

Everyone is allowed to comment.

But, what shouldn't come as a surprise, is that decisions are going to be made about wildlife to benefit the direct beneficiary of a states wildlife resources.

That would be the Residents of the state that wildlife resides in.

Send your comments, but don't act all butt hurt when a resident's voice carries a lot more weight and changes are made to benefit residents.

It's the same thing that happens in all 50 states.

What I find curious is how much whining on the internet I see...and yet, when I read public comments submitted to the commission, task force, etc. I'm not seeing many, if any, comments from nrs.

The amount of time it takes to pound out a complaint here doing nothing, a comment could be submitted that may make a difference.

For many it seems they plenty of time to apply for tags, watch you tube videos on how to apply, beg for information on hunting boards, but no time for advocacy. That includes both r and nr hunters.

Again, those few that show up are going to have extremely loud voices and will drive decision making.

 

[Rifleman86]

You're wrong, I have fully supported anyone wanting to comment on anything they want. That includes public lands, wildlife in all 50 states, etc.

That includes nr anti hunters showing up to commission meetings asking the commission to ban trapping, ban wolf hunting, etc.

Everyone is allowed to comment.

But, what shouldn't come as a surprise, is that decisions are going to be made about wildlife to benefit the direct beneficiary of a states wildlife resources.

That would be the Residents of the state that wildlife resides in.

Send your comments, but don't act all butt hurt when s resident's voice carries a lot more weight and changes are made to benefit residents.

It's the same thing that happens in all 50 states.

I don’t expect a NR opinion to carry the same weight, but the majority of residents either can’t lift a finger when we are in the crosshairs of the legislature or openly encourage us losing more and more opportunity, despite us playing a very important role in funding for the state as well as long term conservation efforts.

I empathize a lot of the frustrations of resident hunters. We have the same goals. Healthy animals, access, and fair opportunity. I don’t want the mountains covered in hunters it can’t sustain just as much as any resident. I just want a little of that empathy back when we are in the crosshairs, and I want us to quit fighting each other and instead fight for better access and habitat.

 

[BuzzH]

I don’t expect a NR opinion to carry the same weight, but the majority of residents either can’t lift a finger when we are in the crosshairs of the legislature or openly encourage us losing more and more opportunity, despite us playing a very important role in funding for the state as well as long term conservation efforts.

I empathize a lot of the frustrations of resident hunters. We have the same goals. Healthy animals, access, and fair opportunity. I don’t want the mountains covered in hunters it can’t sustain just as much as any resident. I just want a little of that empathy back when we are in the crosshairs, and I want us to quit fighting each other and instead fight for better access and habitat.

I agree residents are not a lot better.

But for you to claim resident hunters have done nothing for nrs is not true either.

Wyoming has language in regulation that allows any tags not drawn in the initial draw to drop to nr initial draw. Meaning that several thousand tags reserved for residents drop directly to nr initial draw.

We also allow nrs the same chance at the second draw as residents, several thousand more tags available to nrs.

Our limited quota elk, deer, and pronghorn are 80-20 split, substantially higher than most other states.

Myself and a few other residents pushed the nr draw date back for elk. Prior to that, any new commission approved elk hunts were unavailable for nr applicants the first year. Meaning nrs were getting hosed out of quality hunts. My NR nephew and 3 of my nr friends drew great elk tags last year that they wouldn't have even been able to apply for it we wouldn't have changed the regulation.

So again, I think it's pretty unfair, and frankly untrue to say residents do nothing for nrs here.

No thanks necessary.

 

[Rifleman86]

I agree residents are not a lot better.

But for you to claim resident hunters have done nothing for nrs is not true either.

Wyoming has language in regulation that allows any tags not drawn in the initial draw to drop to nr initial draw. Meaning that several thousand tags reserved for residents drop directly to nr initial draw.

We also allow nrs the same chance at the second draw as residents, several thousand more tags available to nrs.

Our limited quota elk, deer, and pronghorn are 80-20 split, substantially higher than most other states.

Myself and a few other residents pushed the nr draw date back for elk. Prior to that, any new commission approved elk hunts were unavailable for nr applicants the first year. Meaning nrs were getting hosed out of quality hunts. My NR nephew and 3 of my nr friends drew great elk tags last year that they wouldn't have even been able to apply for it we wouldn't have changed the regulation.

So again, I think it's pretty unfair, and frankly untrue to say residents do nothing for nrs here.

No thanks necessary.

I’d agree, residents have done a lot for nonresidents in the past in many states. As you well know MT for example got rid of outfitter tags via ballot initiative years ago.

My issue is that the whole “nonresidents are ruining my hunting” shtick is the complaint dejour of every hunter in the country at the moment, to include my own state. “All those nonresidents from Vermont and New Hampshire are ruining the Wayne NF” is something I hear quite often here. Yeah, opening day is a zoo, but that’s what happens when you have a state with nearly 12 million people, OTC tags, and a week long gun season. Bottom line, it’s not a small percentage of NR fault. In fact, they do a great job making up for all the lost revenue from free resident landowner tags, and boost the local economy.

Sure, in a few cases limiting NR tags further is probably necessary both biologically and socially. CO OTC archery is probably a great example of this.

But increasingly we’re seeing legislation that isn’t biologically based being put forth to increasingly either price out, privatize, or limit nonresident hunting. This is of course welcome to the resident who blames all his unfilled tags on the one out of state plate at the trailhead. When those of us who have been giving thousands to state fish and game agencies for decades for a fraction of the opportunities say “wait a sec, can’t we get a small say in this since we’ve been footing a good part of the bill for so long?”

In turn we get told by almost everyone, to include those in the conservation world who are supposed to be our advocates, tell us it’s none of our business, and we’re selfish for suggesting otherwise or trying to find a means to have a voice.

I think anyone could see how that would be frustrating at the very least.

Bottom line I don’t think any nonresident guy posting here is asking for the world, equal price tags to a nonresident, 50/50 opportunities or matching otc opportunities. If they are, they are dead wrong. Literally the only thing I really want changed is getting rid of outfitter preference and the WY wilderness rule. Other than that I’m completely ok with the price I pay for tags and the amount that are allocated.

But a lot of us see the writing on the wall of where this shit is headed, and ignoring the problem, burying our heads in the sand, or saying “this is how we’ve always done it and it can’t change” or worse yet pointing fingers at each other is going to be disastrous for all of us in the long run.

 

[Bighorner]

I really havent seen the NR hate in the field you are talking about, maybe I run with a different crowd.

What I do see is a ton of complaining and quit frankly beating a dead horse, by key board warriors.

If anything has put a bad taste in my mouth it has been NR wanting to make changes to a resource that is very clearly not theirs to meddle in. I dont buy burgers from McDonald's and the bitch and moan when they stop the Mcrib. I get that your pissed. Everyone does. But you and a few others are doing far more harm than good in furthering sympathy for non residents. You do not have representatives in our legislature. You have paid for a lottery ticket. Go ask maga millions for your money back and let us know how it went. I dont complain about lobster quotas in Maine or Osceolas in Florida, or the speed limit in West Virgina.

You have oppertunity. The resource is shrinking for everyone. Put your time into habitat where it does good. Not the internet where nothing really changes. You are not winning my support by just putting you hand out. I will be at my next local fish and game meeting. If you can make it, please feel free to introduce yourself.

Stop digging.

 

[BuzzH]

I’d agree, residents have done a lot for nonresidents in the past in many states. As you well know MT for example got rid of outfitter tags via ballot initiative years ago.

My issue is that the whole “nonresidents are ruining my hunting” shtick is the complaint dejour of every hunter in the country at the moment, to include my own state. “All those nonresidents from Vermont and New Hampshire are ruining the Wayne NF” is something I hear quite often here. Yeah, opening day is a zoo, but that’s what happens when you have a state with nearly 12 million people, OTC tags, and a week long gun season. Bottom line, it’s not a small percentage of NR fault. In fact, they do a great job making up for all the lost revenue from free resident landowner tags, and boost the local economy.

Sure, in a few cases limiting NR tags further is probably necessary both biologically and socially. CO OTC archery is probably a great example of this.

But increasingly we’re seeing legislation that isn’t biologically based being put forth to increasingly either price out, privatize, or limit nonresident hunting. This is of course welcome to the resident who blames all his unfilled tags on the one out of state plate at the trailhead. When those of us who have been giving thousands to state fish and game agencies for decades for a fraction of the opportunities say “wait a sec, can’t we get a small say in this since we’ve been footing a good part of the bill for so long?”

In turn we get told by almost everyone, to include those in the conservation world who are supposed to be our advocates, tell us it’s none of our business, and we’re selfish for suggesting otherwise or trying to find a means to have a voice.

I think anyone could see how that would be frustrating at the very least.

Bottom line I don’t think any nonresident guy posting here is asking for the world, equal price tags to a nonresident, 50/50 opportunities or matching otc opportunities. If they are, they are dead wrong. Literally the only thing I really want changed is getting rid of outfitter preference and the WY wilderness rule. Other than that I’m completely ok with the price I pay for tags and the amount that are allocated.

But a lot of us see the writing on the wall of where this shit is headed, and ignoring the problem, burying our heads in the sand, or saying “this is how we’ve always done it and it can’t change” or worse yet pointing fingers at each other is going to be disastrous for all of us in the long run.

Outfitters get no preference in Wyoming and the wilderness guide law is something I agree with you about.

For the record, NR's of WY receive well past their tag allocations. Over 50% of total pronghorn tags, way past 20% of the available deer tags, and 13k elk tags that have a cap of 7250.

Taking that it consideration, I don't see how any NR has a legitimate gripe about Wyoming Residents wanting 90% of sheep, goat, moose, bison, and hopefully soon, grizzly bear tags. Its in line with what other states offer for ALL species.

 

[Rifleman86]

Outfitters get no preference in Wyoming and the wilderness guide law is something I agree with you about.

For the record, NR's of WY receive well past their tag allocations. Over 50% of total pronghorn tags, way past 20% of the available deer tags, and 13k elk tags that have a cap of 7250.

Taking that it consideration, I don't see how any NR has a legitimate gripe about Wyoming Residents wanting 90% of sheep, goat, moose, bison, and hopefully soon, grizzly bear tags. Its in line with what other states offer for ALL species.

Buzz I don’t think we’re all that off on what we would like to see. I don’t love 90/10, but I even suggested it as the “minimum” I’d like to see nonresident opportunities be set at if I could.

My big issue is really the outfitter stuff at the moment. I’d love to find a realistic way to fight that.

That said I am deeply concerned about where we’re headed. Nonresidents have turned into the scapegoats for piss poor management in a lot of states, not just the west. I think we all should be concerned about that trend resident and nonresident alike. I personally think finding a way to give non residents small voice in state management might be a good thing.

I’m open to being wrong there, state management has been very good for all of us for a long time and I’m not entirely sure what the solution would be for that or what it would look like. But I hope we can get past the internet bickering and work toward solutions that increase all of our opportunities.

 

[sneaky]

Maybe your state should enact tag preference for the citizens of your state.

His state doubled NR tag prices a couple years ago... because get this, residents were bitching about nonresidents. Weird huh?

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[Wyobohunter]

His state doubled NR tag prices a couple years ago... because get this, residents were bitching about nonresidents. Weird huh?

I feel that hunting in another state is a luxery activity and it should be expected that price and availability of tags will reflect that fact. Maybe we can give him a pass and not start a thread ranting about it

I, as a non-resident of Ohio, solemnly swear to not contact Ohio politicians or Game and Fish officials to whine about how they manage their game.

Hold me to it.

 

[gonhunting247]

What I do see, is that every time a NR fee is raised, a quota is dropped, etc. every NR on every hunting board absolutely losing their minds.

Really, every NR?
I think it's actually a fairly small percentage on both sides of this argument R/NR that are going back and forth on the internet.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Really, every NR?
I think it's actually a fairly small percentage on both sides of this argument R/NR that are going back and forth on the internet.

I believe he was being facetious. Chill buddy

 

[sneaky]

I feel that hunting in another state is a luxery activity and it should be expected that price and availability of tags will reflect that fact. Maybe we can give him a pass and not start a thread ranting about it

I, as a non-resident of Ohio, solemnly swear to not contact Ohio politicians or Game and Fish officials to whine about how they manage their game.

Hold me to it.

It absolutely is a luxury, but he's acting like it's just a western phenomenon with residents complaining about nonresidents and raising prices. That attitude and behavior isn't limited to the western states, and I would wager he was perfectly OK with Ohio raising their NR license and tag prices. Him starting a thread on here complaining about that very same thing out here is the pot calling the kettle black.

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[gonhunting247]

I believe he was being facetious. Chill buddy

I'm good, thanks Though .

 

[QuackAttack]

It’s time to amend Pittman-Robertson and apply a fairness test to states, one that removes federal dollars from states that discriminate against non residents who are clearly paying the bulk of those PR dollars.


Write your rep and directly ask for it.