Liberation Day

[CorbLand]

FWIW, if you guys are posting in this thread during the work day I would never recommend you for an hourly job. You're management material.

You think you get the quality of memes some produce for free?

 

[Beendare]

Whether you like the current Admin plan or not....you have to know that the US has been getting rope-a-doped and taken advantage of for a long time by other holier than thou countries. They rely on the US for security- thus we pay more in income taxes to support the military complex for the benefit of those same countries that badmouth us like the EU countries and the new PM in Canada.

Then add the US politicos in both parties have been derelict in their fiscal responsibilities- massive scamming of gov agencies, a huge and inefficient payroll along with spending our tax dollars on silly chit and driving up our deficit.

Then to top it off, Criminals and immigrants get treated better than hard working citizens.

THAT^ is unsustainable and has to stop. The choice to continue kicking the can down the road is not an option.

It's going to be a painful adjustment that is only just beginning......in the meantime, shoot your same old Bow/Rifle [that just plain works!] , hunt in your broken in camo and don't buy a $120,000 hunting truck with a 10 year loan at 8%- grin

 

[cnelk]

Gotta love the internet
Lets go back to 1996

 

[KurtR]

The booze has not treated her well

 

[Ten Bears]

Gotta love the internet
Lets go back to 1996

oh that’s a good one. thanks for posting

 

[Fowl Play]

I agree with the sentiments that the tariffs are meant to do. I'm interested to see how it all plays out in the real world. For the tariffs to work, you can't just bring back manufactures, you have to bring back the producers of the raw material. A tariff does not help American companies as much, if their cost for raw goods goes up the same percentage as their overseas competitor's tariffs on final products. Especially when they are competing with cheaper labor overseas. Steel/Aluminum, etc. is mostly made overseas.

Are those companies going to invest tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, moving their operations to the US? When it all could just be reversed in 4 years, wasting that investment? I doubt it. The safer play for them would be to just wait it out. I feel like you'd have to have the assurance that the tariffs would be permanent to effect real change. Which you cannot do with US politics.

 

[Marbles]

Pffft. A Ponzi Scheme is designed to deceive and enrich the scheme's operator. Where is that happening?
Social Security benefits are based on your contributions through taxes, not on investment returns. You're entitled to benefits based on your work history, not on the promise of investment gains like in a Ponzi scheme.
Social Security is part of our social contract, ensuring support for retirees. It's about societal responsibility, not deceit like a Ponzi scheme. Does it have it flaws and shortcomings? Certainly. Could it run dry? possibly. Does it qualify as a Ponzi Scheme? No.

I typed out a long reply, but decided to shorten it.

Social security is a "social contract" that will be broken, thus it is a fraud at this point. I'm fine paying to fix the garbage the entitled generation perpetuated. I am not fine with my children paying for it and I am not fine becoming one of the fraudsters nor am I fine with those who call their fraud by kindly names. Rename it what it is, welfare, just like tariffs are corporate welfare. Then, at least, it will not be a fraud.

 

[Marbles]

I am not far behind you in age and I am willing to take the pain, IF we actually do get the gain. That is the part I am questioning. I have little faith that we will.

Trust Father, he will lead us to prosperity and everything that goes wrong is the "others" fault. Father is never wrong.

To sum up JD Vance, that guy always gets it right.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Please help keep this forum on track.

Can anyone with a good understanding attempt to explain the effects of the speculated tariffs?

Something that affects most users here is auto prices, which are speculated to rise 5% to 25%. No one obviously wants to see that.

At our company, our major heavy equipment vendors have all announced a price increase coming due to the tariffs. Several implemented a 2% tariff through the month of March, even though tariffs are not in effect (except for the 20% China tariff). After 3/31, they are saying the full burden of the tariff will be passed on to the buyers. It is speculated this could increase the cost of equipment by 20% or more, but again that is speculation.

Based on this limited example, it seems to me that the burden of these tariffs will be passed along directly to the consumer.
In my pea brain, it doesn't make sense. We can't source the materials or labor to make everything domestically, and if we can it is a long term proposition.

Please keep it civil, I'm just trying to gain an understanding of the situation. Thanks

The understanding is Trump intends to bring manufacturing back. Or, give it a fair shot. It’s truly a national security issue. I’m not going to debate the economics of it. But, it’s privatizing and restructuring the global economy. And, it will recover.


There are going to price increases until business moves back and gets going. It’s hog wash that American labor has to be expensive. And, the tariffs are intended to incentivize investment in growing American economies. And giving American producers a fair shot at competing in a global market.


It’s going to get worse before it gets better. But, it was a move enacted to accomplish a bigger goal. Securing the sovereignty and future of America.

 

[Marbles]

The understanding is Trump intends to bring manufacturing back. Or, give it a fair shot. It’s truly a national security issue. I’m not going to debate the economics of it. But, it’s privatizing and restructuring the global economy. And, it will recover.


There are going to price increases until business moves back and gets going. It’s hog wash that American labor has to be expensive. And, the tariffs are intended to incentivize investment in growing American economies. And giving American producers a fair shot at competing in a global market.


It’s going to get worse before it gets better. But, it was a move enacted to accomplish a bigger goal. Securing the sovereignty and future of America.

Very convenient that my post right above expresses the same thing, just not in such a flattering way. Telling, the value of rhetoric that your post has several likes, and mine doesn't.

It’s hog wash that American labor has to be expensive.

So, pay people $3.10 an hour like in Vietnam? Perhaps $4.82 an hour like in Mexico?

Is that what is meant by good manufacturing jobs?

It might be good for the richest country on earth to nock its population down several pegs, but that sounds very un American, it sounds more like Pol Pot seeking his agrarian ideal or Stalin trying to create a proletariat.

It’s truly a national security issue.

So target the aspects that are needed for national security, I can see that argument for some goods, but I fail to see how my pants begin sewn in Vietnam compromises national security. I do see how driven other countries into China's arms does though.

 

[wyosam]

You forgot to mention China also indoctrinates their people from birth to put China ahead of themselves as an individual. Once they have them believing that they work them 18 hours a day at 3$/hr building useless cheap crap or iphones until they eventually have had enough and jump out a 6th story window.

China’s response to that, install nets.

Advantage….China

We could never do that here. One failed net and the company, the net manufacturer and the contractor who installed the net get sued into oblivion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mostlybirch]

Whether you like the current Admin plan or not....you have to know that the US has been getting rope-a-doped and taken advantage of for a long time by other holier than thou countries. They rely on the US for security- thus we pay more in income taxes to support the military complex for the benefit of those same countries that badmouth us like the EU countries and the new PM in Canada.

Then add the US politicos in both parties have been derelict in their fiscal responsibilities- massive scamming of gov agencies, a huge and inefficient payroll along with spending our tax dollars on silly chit and driving up our deficit.

Then to top it off, Criminals and immigrants get treated better than hard working citizens.

THAT^ is unsustainable and has to stop. The choice to continue kicking the can down the road is not an option.

It's going to be a painful adjustment that is only just beginning......in the meantime, shoot your same old Bow/Rifle [that just plain works!] , hunt in your broken in camo and don't buy a $120,000 hunting truck with a 10 year loan at 8%- grin

Sorry, I can't agree on the victim mentality narrative. The admin keeps pushing this idea that a trade imbalance (deficit) is a bad deal, or we're getting played, or its some form of subsidy to the country with an imbalance. He has often used the number for the trade deficit with Canada as how much we subsidize their nation. Simply incorrect. Does it not make sense that a nation that is 10x the population would purchase more materials from the nation with 10x less people? Or in the case of China, WE decided to offshore everything and utilize their cheap labor. It benefits us to trade the labor of one guy in America twiddling his thumbs on a ZOOM meeting for the equivalent of a 100 Chinese assembling widgets. These tariffs are so sloppy they don't even account for non-physical items that the US excels in like banking, IP, engineering, etc. Just straight exports.

And as far as defense spending, I think that's pretty rich to blame other countries for the way American's hold the military and defense spending as THE sacred cow which never may be cut. The defense contractors sure have gotten fat from nearly a hundred years of chasing commies and Bin Ladens. After the GWOT we are going to tariff other nations and blame them for our bloated defense spending? We aren't the victims you make us out to be.


I think it might be naive to take these tariffs at face value. A liar always has a thousand excuses, never one good one. The tariffs are stated to be for 1) national defense, 2) economic retaliation 3) combat fentanyl from Canada (????) 4) bring back manufacturing jobs 5) "make America rich again" 6) combat illegal migration 7) pay down national debt 8) reduce trade deficits 9) stimulate the economy (lol)

If you could stand on any one of those legs you would levy tariffs in a calculated way, that targets specific industries. But this isn't a well thought out, strategic move. This is a wholesale part-out of the government for the benefit of a small amount of people. The American people have had their wealth slowly gutted for decades and now the narrative is we are supposed to take it in the shorts for an indeterminate amount of time until we onshore these low-skill, low-wage jobs? And will be staffed by the Americans you guys say are too lazy or incompetent to work them?

At this point it's hard to tell the difference between corruption and incompetence, or most likely both. But today I feel blessed to be debt free and in a somewhat safe industry. My retirement took a 5 figure drop in 8 hours but that's okay, at least I have one. There are so many honest people in this country who are in for a world of hurt, and that's what bothers me.

 

[TandKHunting]

I hope they tariff China 1000%

I am biased though.

On a serious note, we as Americans need to consume less junk from overseas. We have turned into a use and throw away in 3 months society.

Also, does anyone think the rich folks that control much of the stock market (and undoubtedly manufacture in Asia) are punishing the middle class to make Trump look bad? Maybe mad because their 80 and 90 percent gross margins in retail went to 40 - 50 percent gross margins. Ya know....the lower margins a lot of us American companies barely survive on...

I say welcome to the party. Adapt and survive like the rest of us had to while battling against cheap labor and cheap materials. We have a lot of Made in China and Made in Vietnam companies price match us and probably pay a 1/4th of what we do in labor and materials. No sympathy from me. And if they want to pass on the tariffs to keep their high margins...companies like us will buy more machinery, hire more folks, and manufacture more products that are similar or cheaper in price but Made in the USA.

 

[Flyjunky]

Sorry, I can't agree on the victim mentality narrative. The admin keeps pushing this idea that a trade imbalance (deficit) is a bad deal, or we're getting played, or its some form of subsidy to the country with an imbalance. He has often used the number for the trade deficit with Canada as how much we subsidize their nation. Simply incorrect. Does it not make sense that a nation that is 10x the population would purchase more materials from the nation with 10x less people? Or in the case of China, WE decided to offshore everything and utilize their cheap labor. It benefits us to trade the labor of one guy in America twiddling his thumbs on a ZOOM meeting for the equivalent of a 100 Chinese assembling widgets. These tariffs are so sloppy they don't even account for non-physical items that the US excels in like banking, IP, engineering, etc. Just straight exports.

So, by your logic why isn’t China importing way more from us? Don’t they have like 4x our population?

And as far as defense spending, I think that's pretty rich to blame other countries for the way American's hold the military and defense spending as THE sacred cow which never may be cut. The defense contractors sure have gotten fat from nearly a hundred years of chasing commies and Bin Ladens. After the GWOT we are going to tariff other nations and blame them for our bloated defense spending? We aren't the victims you make us out to be.

Sure, let’s get out of NATO and not worry about defending any other country but ourselves. I’m sure all those other countries will be fine with that, right? They won’t throw a hissy fit. Aren’t these the same countries who were upset that they would have to contribute more to NATO instead of us basically bankrolling it? The same countries who say Russia is a threat to Europe but still support Russia by buying their oil and gas?

I think it might be naive to take these tariffs at face value. A liar always has a thousand excuses, never one good one. The tariffs are stated to be for 1) national defense, 2) economic retaliation 3) combat fentanyl from Canada (????) 4) bring back manufacturing jobs 5) "make America rich again" 6) combat illegal migration 7) pay down national debt 8) reduce trade deficits 9) stimulate the economy

Yeah, fk that stuff. Let’s go back to what we were doing. Better yet, let’s go with that build back better plan. I hear that is the cats meow.

(lol)

If you could stand on any one of those legs you would levy tariffs in a calculated way, that targets specific industries. But this isn't a well thought out, strategic move. This is a wholesale part-out of the government for the benefit of a small amount of people. The American people have had their wealth slowly gutted for decades and now the narrative is we are supposed to take it in the shorts for an indeterminate amount of time until we onshore these low-skill, low-wage jobs? And will be staffed by the Americans you guys say are too lazy or incompetent to work them?

Well thought out strategic moves, oh how I remember the last 4 years when you say that. I say we nuke the whole damn govt, chop shop the whole thing. Every corrupt NGO, USAid, and multi millionaire career politician can go bye bye. Oh, throw the illegals in that mix as well. This will benefit all Americans.

At this point it's hard to tell the difference between corruption and incompetence, or most likely both. But today I feel blessed to be debt free and in a somewhat safe industry. My retirement took a 5 figure drop in 8 hours but that's okay, at least I have one. There are so many honest people in this country who are in for a world of hurt, and that's what bothers me.

Corruption and incompetence, yeah, that’s why we have who we have in office. People were tired of it.

 

[Poser]

Lawsuits have already been filed. Trump issued these tariffs under the Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977, but, reportedly, that is a statute that authorizes presidents to order sanctions as a rapid response to international emergencies. The IEEPA reportedly does not allow a president to impose tariffs on the American people. It also questionable if "the whole world" (*except for Russia) is not too broad of a use to justify being a threat to national security.

There are also a number of reports that the Trump admin used Chat GPT or similar AI platform to generate the tariff math. I haven't tried it for myself, but apparently if you reverse engineer these tariffs, you find an oversimplified calculation that several major AI chatbots happen to recommend and you can recreate each of the White House’s numbers by simply taking a given country’s trade deficit with the US and dividing it by their total exports to the US. Halve that number, and you get a ready-to-use “discounted reciprocal tariff" which happens to align with what was presented in the Rose Garden. If you happen to plug these numbers into Gemini, you apparently get a page full of explanations as to why this oversimplified approach could backfire along with the formulas.

At this moment, it is difficult to imagine that many companies will take any sort of immediate measures to move production as there are simply too many unknown variables. Will the tariffs last days, months or years? Does the president actually possess the power to issue these tariffs? Will they be undone as fast as they were implemented. Will they survive midterm elections? Will they survive a 4 year admin cycle? Is 4 years enough to justify reinvesting in production vs. riding out a global recession? All unknowns.

 

[NDGuy]

 

[chanson_roland]

Lawsuits have already been filed. Trump issued these tariffs under the Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977, but, reportedly, that is a statute that authorizes presidents to order sanctions as a rapid response to international emergencies. The IEEPA reportedly does not allow a president to impose tariffs on the American people. It also questionable if "the whole world" (*except for Russia) is not too broad of a use to justify being a threat to national security.

There are also a number of reports that the Trump admin used Chat GPT or similar AI platform to generate the tariff math. I haven't tried it for myself, but apparently if you reverse engineer these tariffs, you find an oversimplified calculation that several major AI chatbots happen to recommend and you can recreate each of the White House’s numbers by simply taking a given country’s trade deficit with the US and dividing it by their total exports to the US. Halve that number, and you get a ready-to-use “discounted reciprocal tariff" which happens to align with what was presented in the Rose Garden. If you happen to plug these numbers into Gemini, you apparently get a page full of explanations as to why this oversimplified approach could backfire along with the formulas.

At this moment, it is difficult to imagine that many companies will take any sort of immediate measures to move production as there are simply too many unknown variables. Will the tariffs last days, months or years? Does the president actually possess the power to issue these tariffs? Will they be undone as fast as they were implemented. Will they survive midterm elections? Will they survive a 4 year admin cycle? Is 4 years enough to justify reinvesting in production vs. riding out a global recession? All unknowns.

I was on a con call about this last night. Yeah, they basically put a list of countries into ChatGPT and used a very simple formula:

(Trade Deficit/Exports to USA), divided by 2.

https://www.ft.com/content/85d73172-936a-41f6-9606-4f1e17cb74df
https://fortune.com/2025/04/03/trump-tariff-formula-calculation-trade-deficit/
https://www.reuters.com/world/trumps-tariff-formula-confounds-world-punishes-poor-2025-04-03/

That's how you get mighty Lesotho with a 50% tariff, and Madagascar with 47%.

Frankly, it's mathematically illiterate and lazy. It also doesn't take into account the specific tariff rates you apply to high-margin products (software, media) vs. low-margin products (foodstuffs).

China already responded with a 34% tariff; I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar worldwide reaction now that the process has been leaked.

Dow was "liberated" of another 1000 pts overnight, so we're at Dow 39K and change.

 

[rodney482]

buy buy buy

 

[rodney482]

if tariffs don’t work why do so many other countries have large ones against the United States?

 

[bozeman]

if tariffs don’t work why do so many other countries have large ones against the United States?

I've asked this as well.....all I get is 'crickets'.......