Let's talk grazing on public lands...

[HaydenLane]

You guys are confusing spoiled rich cowboy LARPers with ranchers. There is a whole world of rich kids with new diesels, new stock trailers, and 20k "ranch" horses running around the west playing john wayne with daddies millions. I know a few of them. Please don't confuse these idiots with actual ranchers and families struggling to get by in the cattle business.

The truth is that a cow barely pays for herself in today's cow/calf economy. The corporate beef packers are the only folks making money today. If you see these kinds of setups pulling cattle or horses around, you can be damn sure that money was made in a different industry, and its being used to support a cattle hobby rather than a cattle business.

That’s a pretty broad generalization. To put it mildly there are a lot of very successful ranches around me. Most have not been struggling. At least not a until getting slammed with our current drought.

I can say for certain no one in my family comes from money. Those that still ranch are getting by just fine.

I’m sorry, but I just can’t accept the sob stories about poor ranchers as a justification for welfare in the form of government subsidized grazing.

 

[Cowbell]

You guys are confusing spoiled rich cowboy LARPers with ranchers. There is a whole world of rich kids with new diesels, new stock trailers, and 20k "ranch" horses running around the west playing john wayne with daddies millions. I know a few of them. Please don't confuse these idiots with actual ranchers and families struggling to get by in the cattle business.

The truth is that a cow barely pays for herself in today's cow/calf economy. The corporate beef packers are the only folks making money today. If you see these kinds of setups pulling cattle or horses around, you can be damn sure that money was made in a different industry, and its being used to support a cattle hobby rather than a cattle business.

This is very true. Though there is still money to be made in this business if your land is paid for and/or you have cheap leases.

 

[Cowbell]

That’s a pretty broad generalization. To put it mildly there are a lot of very successful ranches around me. Most have not been struggling. At least not a until getting slammed with our current drought.

I can say for certain no one in my family comes from money. Those that still ranch are getting by just fine.

I’m sorry, but I just can’t accept the sob stories about poor ranchers as a justification for welfare in the form of government subsidized grazing.

There is way too much welfare in agriculture. And there should be none.

 

[Customweld]

I hate it. They graze the public ground in the summer, while they grow their land out. Then complain about the wildlife moving in on their ground in the winter. This after they grazed the early spring ground down which usually is wintering ground for deer and elk. .

 

[Baddog]

The usfs is not writing new leases or allowing more animals than in the past. There’s less domestic animals on federal ground than ever before. Plenty of areas have been closed to grazing or limited over the years. So the guys complaining about their spot now being grazed are wrong or possibly the leases weren’t being used.
“Wild” horses are another topic all together...

 

[Cwsharer]

Yep go ahead and attack the very people that would be there to defend your privilege to hunt and fish And live a lifestyle that you love and cherish . These people are out there feeding America while you bitch and complain about their grazing practices having zero knowledge of the cow business. How do you know that cattle aren’t a key player in the ecosystem after being there for longer than you whiners have been alive? Where do you live? Probably in some deer herds winter range I imagine . The ranchers mostly have deeded ground managed for livestock that supports. Tons of wildlife in the summer and critical winter ranges while development swallows up all of the land ranchers have to sell to stay alive so you can live in your wonderful little neighborhoods and complain about things on the internet instead of meeting these families and making an actual difference . Think about the cascading effect of these ranchers going out of business because of higher operating costs . And so what if they are doing good for themselves I didn’t know you have to be a poor rancher driving an old beater to be accepted by posh elk hunters probably packing enough gear worth enough to pay for his powder coated bumpers and fancy stock trailer..... give me a break

 

[HaydenLane]

Yep go ahead and attack the very people that would be there to defend your privilege to hunt and fish And live a lifestyle that you love and cherish . These people are out there feeding America while you bitch and complain about their grazing practices having zero knowledge of the cow business. How do you know that cattle aren’t a key player in the ecosystem after being there for longer than you whiners have been alive? Where do you live? Probably in some deer herds winter range I imagine . The ranchers mostly have deeded ground managed for livestock that supports. Tons of wildlife in the summer and critical winter ranges while development swallows up all of the land ranchers have to sell to stay alive so you can live in your wonderful little neighborhoods and complain about things on the internet instead of meeting these families and making an actual difference . Think about the cascading effect of these ranchers going out of business because of higher operating costs . And so what if they are doing good for themselves I didn’t know you have to be a poor rancher driving an old beater to be accepted by posh elk hunters probably packing enough gear worth enough to pay for his powder coated bumpers and fancy stock trailer..... give me a break

Did you read the thread? Or even the OP (who is a rancher)? Do you have any fact-based information to add?

Asking that federal lands be leased at a fair market price and regulations be enforced to put an end to the abuse of a public resource is not the end of the world as we know it, even though many ranchers love to act like it is.

 

[Cwsharer]

So should we charge fair market price of public land hunting as well ? A private land cattle lease the same as a hunting lease ? Should we auction off all tags to the highest bidder ? Where does it stop ?

 

[JLane330]

Living and hunting in NM, I see a lot of this all over the state. This question keeps coming up and I can't seem to answer it, so maybe someone else has a good answer. Why is there so much ranching in these Western states vs the East? With the drought conditions these states have faced year after year, it doesn't seem like the grazing is very good anyways. Yet, head to East Oklahoma or beyond and the water is plentiful and lands are overgrown with vegetation. No doubt there is beef raised in these areas, but why not huge ranches of grass? Maybe these should be a shift in locale for these operations?

The big issue I have with some ranchers (not all) is how they treat the public land and the people who own it (us). Sure, they develop water sources for their cattle that the game animals use. That's a benefit we enjoy. Some also treat public land as their own and have been known to lock gates that restrict access for us among other things. I personally saw some shenanigans while elk hunting a few years ago by a rancher who didn't want us hunting the public land around him. ATV's driving down the canyons and valleys during the early morning hours pushing elk away, dumping carcasses across the road from our camp, locking gates that are supposed to be open during hunting season, etc. It happens year after year and doesn't show well for the ranchers. I've met other ranchers while hunting who are super great and helpful in locating animals, getting to know the access points and surrounding landscape, etc. I'm thankful for those guys. None the less, they are grazing the public land to what appears to be nothing due to a lack of water. Is this really the smartest way to manage public land?

 

[Trial153]

Give people a free ride long enough and they begin to think they own the horse

 

[Cwsharer]

Should we stop public land hunting due to the few bad actors ? Don’t forget that our hunting privileges are just as fragile as their grazing rights and we are losing them fast .

 

[Flyjunky]

So should we charge fair market price of public land hunting as well ? A private land cattle lease the same as a hunting lease ? Should we auction off all tags to the highest bidder ? Where does it stop ?

?? What are you talking about?

As far as I know hunters are using the land that they pay for and hunt animals they pay for to be managed. Enough of the cry baby attitude. If you want to graze your cattle on OUR public lands, then a fair price. As of right now, it's welfare, plain and simple.

 

[Cwsharer]

The sole purpose of the land is not just hunting . What do you not understand ?

 

[Squincher]

The sole purpose of the land is not just hunting . What do you not understand ?

I didn't see where anyone posted hunting was the sole purpose of public land, but i believe any public recreational use is a higher purpose than subsidizing ranchers.

 

[Chucklehead]

Sounds like most here just want the land managed for the one or two weeks a year they use it. smh

 

[Whisky]

Sounds like most here just want the land managed for the one or two weeks a year they use it. smh

I concur... All I read is jealousy, spite and selfishness.

 

[Donjuan]

Ironic to think buffalo used to graze the lands by the millions of head.

There is also no better tool against out of control fire than proper grazing.

In general, I feel this thread has turned into another bunch of whining because someone isn't doing exactly what you do

 

[GotDraw?]

Typically summer feed isn’t the limiting factor to wildlife survival

Correct, but the late summer overgrazing leaves NOTHING for winter survival.
JL

 

[HaydenLane]

Ironic to think buffalo used to graze the lands by the millions of head.

There is also no better tool against out of control fire than proper grazing.

In general, I feel this thread has turned into another bunch of whining because someone isn't doing exactly what you do

There were an estimated 30-60 million bison. There are 90+ million cattle currently, plus horses (both non-native species) with far less habitat to go around.

The intellectual dishonesty here in support of agricultural welfare is laughable.

 

[GotDraw?]

Ironic to think buffalo used to graze the lands by the millions of head.

There is also no better tool against out of control fire than proper grazing.

In general, I feel this thread has turned into another bunch of whining because someone isn't doing exactly what you do

Not ironic at all.

No doubt many, if not millions of bison grazed the lands 400 years ago, but back then the herds were constantly moving and rotating out to other places. Difference is that back then there were also hundreds of millions of acres of grazable land that was grazed in natural rotation-- with time to recover between buffalo herds. Nowadays, ranchers get a grazing permit park their cattle on the same plot of land for months at a time, some keeping animals there until there is nothing left.

I fail to see any "irony", there is simply no similarity in the land use.

Fire control is another argument or perhaps excuse that I often hear and it is a lame argument at best. To use your words- I find it "ironic" that back in the heyday of the bison, there were massive natural prairies and meadows with natural fires all the time and the grasslands and forests were in great shape. These grass fires burned through areas quickly, were beneficial to grasslands and barely hurt the forests.

JL