Lessons Learned: Complete Arrow Failure on Elk

[PLhunter]

Pointing out the flaws in the arrow performance isn’t me absolving myself of any responsibility, just to clarify. Arrow 1 was not placed perfect that much is sure. Had I slipped it through a rib right into the heart or lungs problem solved game over I have a dead bull on my hands with no drama, regardless of arrow shot.

Arrow 2 is the one I’m a little surprised everyone isn’t too concerned about. I’ve only put arrows in 3 elk and 5 mule deer bucks. So don’t have all the experience. Is glancing off ribs at under 20 yards normal for many of you? Is that an acceptable expected outcome? That’s the one I think people are glancing over. There was no deflection off a branch the front of the bull was behind a young pine tree but it had clearly defined edges and I was in the wide open. The arrow went right where it was aimed. Should have been a clean pass through double lung. Instead I got one lung then liver and gut as it deflected back and up. Rib was clearly impacted upon entering. Throw shot number 1 out the window if that helps people stay more objective. Shot 2 for me is unacceptable performance. Not unacceptable shot placement but performance. (The way the bull spun after being hit would have resulted in the opposite angle if he did indeed move before the arrow arrived). I want something that at least gives a full reliable pass through on that shot. Also, yes I’m aware that the setup and lesser setups can indeed kill elk. Cleaning the skull of one such elk right at this moment, so keenly aware.

Do some of you just accept pretty extreme rib deflections as part of the game when elk hunting? Do you just hope you don’t hit a rib or any bone for that matter?

 

[Brendan]

I don't see anywhere in your post where you talk if the bow was tuned or not. i.e. were broadheads and field points hitting the same spot at low through medium ranges? Paper tuned? Bare Shaft Tuned? Broadhead tuned? Did you make a good shot?

One possible culprit is you can kill you penetration, especially at short ranges, if you don't have a good tune. Arrow is still recovering and hits off axis which can make it easier to break components too. That can happen if you torque the bow and make a bad shot too.

 

[Billy Goat]

Deflection off a rib would have a lot more to do with the broadhead than the arrow shaft. An exodus is a really good head, it's not going to deflect unless something is wrong with angle of the shaft at impact.


You either 1) hit something between you and the target that you over looked causing the arrow to glance slightly and impact out of alignment.

2) just don't have your arrows flying straight to begin with.

 

[Jethro]

Deflection off a rib would have a lot more to do with the broadhead than the arrow shaft. An exodus is a really good head, it's not going to deflect unless something is wrong with angle of the shaft at impact.


You either 1) hit something between you and the target that you over looked causing the arrow to glance slightly and impact out of alignment.

2) just don't have your arrows flying straight to begin with.

Or 3) that bull wasn't as broadside as OP thought.

 

[Billy Goat]

Or 3) that bull wasn't as broadside as OP thought.

That's a possibility too, but with the Exodus I don't think it would matter. It would need to be 60 degrees.

 

[KyleR1985]

I don’t think people are not paying attention to what you want because they’re not good at paying attention. You introduced a pile of anecdotal information with zero relation to terminal arrow performance.

nothing about bow tune, arrow tune, shot form, and we weren’t there.

if you force a bunch of strangers to choose between paying attention to a decision you made they don’t agree with, or your random arrow failure, it’s the internet.

and if you want to focus on the arrow failure, I’m betting the farm it has very little do with the shaft or broadhead choice. Not because it feels good to blame you. But because statistically, your lack of precision in all aspects of shot system are far more likely to result in crap arrow flight (resulting in fletching not being directly behind broadhead on impact), than it is that your arrow weight/foc/shaft choice caused a preventable failure.

we could be wrong. But it’s the internet. You seem like someone willing to pay attention. But you’re letting your emotional attachment to a charged situation blind you to what actually matters in the assessment.

or, it’s entirely possible all is right, and you just had a random failure. We dont know

Switching to “boutique” arrow systems won’t fix anything. It’s a marginal increase in efficiency/effectiveness after you’ve dialed everything else in.

my guess is you’ll think a lot differently about this event in a year or two. Time will offer clarity.

Arrow 2 is the one I’m a little surprised everyone isn’t too concerned about. I’ve only put arrows in 3 elk and 5 mule deer bucks. So don’t have all the experience. Is glancing off ribs at under 20 yards normal for many of you? Is that an acceptable expected outcome? That’s the one I think people are glancing over.

 

[5MilesBack]

Just upping your arrow weight to around 500gr will most likely help you out with penetration and deflections. The only deflections I've ever had are from twigs I didn't see, and the one of those that still hit the bull went through both shoulder blades. That was a 500gr arrow at 285fps. Switch some things up this off-season and report back next season.

 

[Reburn]

Just upping your arrow weight to around 500gr will most likely help you out with penetration and deflections. The only deflections I've ever had are from twigs I didn't see, and the one of those that still hit the bull went through both shoulder blades. That was a 500gr arrow at 285fps. Switch some things up this off-season and report back next season.

Most of the world didnt win the genetic lottery to have a 31+ draw like we did. Short of using a crossbow its unrealistic for 90+% of guys to be able to achieve those numbers - 500gr arrow at 285 fps. Im barely there with a 31.25" draw on a 483 gr arrow 285 fps.

Deflections from trig and branches when you start bumping into the 250-260 fps range is going to be higher then with a 285 fps arrow. There is no getting around gravity and trajectory. There is nothing IMO that a 500 gr arrow can accomplish that a 450 gr arrow cant. If both are actually tuned it doesnt matter.

Pulling higher weight isnt IMO a viable option either as you get 75 and 80 lb bows and extended hold times and shot torquing starts to play a greater effect then lighter arrows as well.

In all the scenarios arrow weight is mostly the least important and having a bow with good arrow flight is more important.

 

[RyanCmns]

I’m guessing your @ a 27.5” draw length either way that’s what mine is regardless that arrow setup will kill elk but I prefer heavy arrows one year I ran a 525gr setup it never slowed down on impact never found that arrow I didn’t like my pin gaps anything past 60 got pretty dramatic drop wise. after that I switched to a 485gr setup blew threw the opposite scapula. I never shy away from the shoulder that asking for 1 lung IMO


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[Reburn]

Pointing out the flaws in the arrow performance isn’t me absolving myself of any responsibility, just to clarify. Arrow 1 was not placed perfect that much is sure. Had I slipped it through a rib right into the heart or lungs problem solved game over I have a dead bull on my hands with no drama, regardless of arrow shot.

Arrow 2 is the one I’m a little surprised everyone isn’t too concerned about. I’ve only put arrows in 3 elk and 5 mule deer bucks. So don’t have all the experience. Is glancing off ribs at under 20 yards normal for many of you? Is that an acceptable expected outcome? That’s the one I think people are glancing over. There was no deflection off a branch the front of the bull was behind a young pine tree but it had clearly defined edges and I was in the wide open. The arrow went right where it was aimed. Should have been a clean pass through double lung. Instead I got one lung then liver and gut as it deflected back and up. Rib was clearly impacted upon entering. Throw shot number 1 out the window if that helps people stay more objective. Shot 2 for me is unacceptable performance. Not unacceptable shot placement but performance. (The way the bull spun after being hit would have resulted in the opposite angle if he did indeed move before the arrow arrived). I want something that at least gives a full reliable pass through on that shot. Also, yes I’m aware that the setup and lesser setups can indeed kill elk. Cleaning the skull of one such elk right at this moment, so keenly aware.

Do some of you just accept pretty extreme rib deflections as part of the game when elk hunting? Do you just hope you don’t hit a rib or any bone for that matter?

I think a large part of the members here that know what they are talking about cringed at the second arrows performace as well. However I would bet a donut that your bow isnt tuned at all or isnt tuned well. Sometimes we get tired of sounding like a broken record. The arrow wasnt at fault. The bow may have been but ultimately it was you not making sure you had good arrow flight to help with less then ideal shots and shot placement.

 

[PLhunter]

I don't see anywhere in your post where you talk if the bow was tuned or not. i.e. were broadheads and field points hitting the same spot at low through medium ranges? Paper tuned? Bare Shaft Tuned? Broadhead tuned? Did you make a good shot?

One possible culprit is you can kill you penetration, especially at short ranges, if you don't have a good tune. Arrow is still recovering and hits off axis which can make it easier to break components too. That can happen if you torque the bow and make a bad shot too.

I do in the original post. I broadhead tuned to 100 yards. I focused a lot on this over the last couple years. The arrow was very borderline on being underspined so I do think that could be a culprit.

 

[5MilesBack]

There is nothing IMO that a 500 gr arrow can accomplish that a 450 gr arrow cant. If both are actually tuned it doesnt matter.

It "shouldn't matter"......until it does. There is no debating the fact that heavier arrows have better penetration potential.....all else equal. If 500gr doesn't change anything, then try 550gr......etc. Plenty of traditional shooters with much slower setups getting passthroughs consistently with heavier arrows. Maybe change up to a long 2-blade head as well????

 

[Brendan]

I do in the original post. I broadhead tuned to 100 yards. I focused a lot on this over the last couple years. The arrow was very borderline on being underspined so I do think that could be a culprit.

No you don't say that in the original post, still, even after editing it this morning with additional data.

"Broadheads shooting lights out" doesn't mean they're hitting consistently with FP at different ranges nor does it mean they're tuned which is what the initial post says.

Short range flight matters more than long range when it comes to penetration and off-axis hits because fletching hasn't had a chance to stabilize the arrow at short range. That can be tune, or you making a bad shot.

Everyone keeps bringing this up because you threw a whole lot of anecdotal commentary out there that reads like a novel instead of cutting to the chase...

 

[Billy Goat]

It "shouldn't matter"......until it does. There is no debating the fact that heavier arrows have better penetration potential.....all else equal. If 500gr doesn't change anything, then try 550gr......etc.

It all comes at a cost tho. With what I'll call an average draw length cause I'm not in the gorilla club, there's a big difference for me with a 450 and a 500 grain arrow at 55 yards. Literally branches that are of no consequence with 450 become an issue at 500. It's would likely be similar to you using a 500 grain versus a 600 grain.


I'm not saying at all the penetration won't be better with 50 grains extra, but I can sacrifice some penetration value for flatter trajectory so I can actually make the shot. It ain't going to matter how much that arrow will penetrate when it won't get there.

I'm sure you have killed more elk than I have, I don't live out there with them. I have killed enough and seen plenty more taken with archery equipment to have a pretty good idea what it takes. I feel completely confident to use a sub 400 grain arrow on them, I choose to use heavier because I can gain that bit of penetration just incase while not sacrificing significant trajectory.


I have put 380 grain arrows long ways thru two bulls with 1 3/4 mechanical heads. Like I said, I choose to use heavier now, but I still have confidence in the ability of those lighter arrows. They won't reliably penetrate thru the shoulder knuckle, I have also seen heavy shafts with two blade heads fail to penetrate in that situation, they stand a better chance of penetrating, but it's not a guarantee. Way better to not hit it. I think building a heavy arrow to make up for a low percentage shot that doesn't always mean a lethal hit anyways is a poor choice. I wonder how many of these arrows aren't hitting heavy bone but instead hit back and take out the liver. With a smaller hole in and out the blood trail is harder to follow. So how many elk are killed and not recovered with a heavy two blade versus a larger cutting broadhead that is easier to trail?


It's all about balance. Each archer needs to evaluate what works for them and their situation. I'm sure someone who hunts out in the open of sage will need different criteria than someone in dark timber. I hunt them in dark timber and deadfalls. Being able to shoot narrow windows is important to me.

 

[PLhunter]

I think a large part of the members here that know what they are talking about cringed at the second arrows performace as well. However I would bet a donut that your bow isnt tuned at all or isnt tuned well. Sometimes we get tired of sounding like a broken record. The arrow wasnt at fault. The bow may have been but ultimately it was you not making sure you had good arrow flight to help with less then ideal shots and shot placement.

The bow is well tuned. I also shot probably 100 series with a broadhead to ensure that it was flying with the field tips. I made sure to take lots of cold shots as well to make sure I had good form and broadhead flight cold. Shot with broadheads well out to 100 yards. Taking the time to tune was not the issue, I cover this in the OP. I took great effort in making sure I was shooting consistent with broadheads. Now did I torque the bow on this particular shot? Hard to say without video. However, it’s certainly not due to a lack of tuning. I took the time to cover this in the OP to hopefully avoid this distraction.

 

[PLhunter]

No you don't say that in the original post, still, even after editing it this morning with additional data.

"Broadheads shooting lights out" doesn't mean they're hitting consistently with FP at different ranges nor does it mean they're tuned which is what the initial post says.

Short range flight matters more than long range when it comes to penetration and off-axis hits because fletching hasn't had a chance to stabilize the arrow at short range. That can be tune, or you making a bad shot.

Everyone keeps bringing this up because you threw a whole lot of anecdotal commentary out there that reads like a novel instead of cutting to the chase...

That’s why I mention the bow shooting well out to long ranges in the OP. I didn’t go into detail about tuning but I do make sure to let folks know that the arrows are flying well and shooting true with broadheads…. I would assume that folks would read that to mean they are flying with field tips otherwise who would consider that shooting well? I think to go from that to assuming an untuned bow requires one to be really searching.

I do cover the potential spine issues and I think that played a role at close range. I could of yanked it too. I practiced to not make it that way but hell I don’t get to practice on live bulls.

Regardless, this has become largely unproductive. I’m going to continue to make sure my bow is tuned. Practice lots with broadheads as I already do and switch to a heavier stouter arrow and broadhead setup. I will also caution someone from using a setup similar to mine even though it technically kills elk.

 

[Reburn]

Now did I torque the bow on this particular shot? Hard to say without video.

While not definitive. Its fairly easy to say yes you probably torqued the hell out of it and / or probably had a death grip on it. We all have done it there is no shame in it. Still not the arrow. Still the Indian.

The fact that you made this statement shows that you probably didnt torque tune the bow. I can hit a broadhead close to behind my pin while torquing the bow damn near enough to derail it. Its my final stage of tuning and the one that will make the bow as forgiving as it can be.

If you come back and say you did torque tune the bow then it will for sure be the indian and still not the arrow.

 

[KyleR1985]

Since there clearly are no holes in your archery game - you experienced a random failure that can only be explained by chance. Things break and fail sometimes. Even extremely well known and used components.

I recommend getting into an arrow system that you feel gives you better odds of remaining solid through impact with your target. Nothing is black and white. But you can probably improve the math marginally.

 

[PLhunter]

For those assuming a lack of tuning or practice. I have a full size deer 3D target and 5 acres. My buddy and I make up all sorts of situations. Kneeling, sitting, timed alert animal shots, draw and then come around a tree, unknown ranges, odd shot angles, small windows, etc…. It’s a lot of fun and we try to test ourselves.

 

[PLhunter]

While not definitive. Its fairly easy to say yes you probably torqued the hell out of it and / or probably had a death grip on it. We all have done it there is no shame in it. Still not the arrow. Still the Indian.

The fact that you made this statement shows that you probably didnt torque tune the bow. I can hit a broadhead close to behind my pin while torquing the bow damn near enough to derail it. Its my final stage of tuning and the one that will make the bow as forgiving as it can be.

If you come back and say you did torque tune the bow then it will for sure be the indian and still not the arrow.

Interested in learning more about torque tuning? I’ve always just practiced as much as possible to avoid torque.