Archery Arrow weight/FOC for elk

[doc holiday13]

15%+ FOC is a nicety. Kinda like having a seat heater/cooler in your car. Its not gonna get you to your destination. You can chase it but its not as important as the Ashby crowd wants you to believe. 10-14% is more feasible without loosing arrow speed. Arrow speed will give you a better "margin of error" than a big heavy weight will give if you ever shoot past 25 yards

 

[No_Murphy]

Now granted I haven’t gotten to really play with this past 40 yards (where to difference would be more significant) but here’s a shot from precision cut using my setup and 5.0/axis configurations with the same total point and insert weight and same fletching.

For ME, I think I’d need a bigger difference in arrow weight to start seeing more meaningful differences. Undoubtedly the lighter faster arrow will be more forgiving of range errors, but this chart and my initial experiments (using @Marshfly’s test method) suggests that the “forgiveness” is pretty minimal. I will need to try to mess with this at longer ranges (60+) to see how accurate the chart is.

At the unmarked 3D shoot I referenced, I used the 5.0 one day, and the axis the next day. I’m grossly out of practice for unmarked 3D, but my scores both days were very close; not a massive difference in favor of the faster arrow. I was a little surprised since I figured a flatter trajectory would have more of an impact on my score. Guess the moral is that if I misjudge by more than 5 yards, I’m missing with either setup

I am changing significantly with my current set up and based on these comments I might actually go lighter than I mentioned in the original post. My current set up is 300 spine black eagle carnivore arrows with a 100 grain brass insert, 150 grain broadhead and silent knight 3 fletch. Total arrow weight is ~517 grains and I think 19-20% FOC.
After reading these comments and looking at other people's set ups, I will more than likely go with the Easton 5.0 in 300 spine with the HIT inserts and Match collar, 125 grain fixed blade and AAE Hybrid HP vanes. Total weight is ~ 417 grains with 14.5% FOC.
Changing to a setup like this sounds like I will get the penetration I need for elk while also having forgiveness with misjudged yardages.

 

[sheajeff]

Just my personal observation, I went down the Foc rabbit hole, and I have had everything from 20 percent foc to 9 percent foc, so recently I bought a couple dozen Fmj 340s and installed the standard 16 grain inserts, and they are grouping just as good… if not better than my foc arrows out to 70 yards, and I have no idea what the foc is on them, I recently spoke with some pro staff shooters in my area, and they have never been concerned with foc, I now believe a person should just build a arrow for the animal they want to hunt and go have fun!!!

 

[NXTZ]

Good info there. I bet your speeds are fairly fast. I think it makes a bigger difference the slower you start and if you gain or drop a more significant amount of weight. When I compared the Victory HLR to my current RIP TKOs I would only drop less than 20 grains. So I decided tossup with the proven TKOs.

Rough estimate, I think I’m at about 265-270 fps with the axis and low 280s with the lighter arrow, so pretty average from what I’ve seen.

I have next to no experience with victory arrows, but have heard nothing but good things about the rip tkos. They look comparable for GPI to these new hlr/5.0, and I’m sure they’re far more durable. I need to geek out more on the types and construction methods of carbon, but I think the high modulus stuff is lighter at the cost of durability/brittleness. Black eagle rampages are high modulus and I broke those way more easily than axis (pultrusion).

 

[doc holiday13]

I recently spoke with some pro staff shooters in my area, and they have never been concerned with foc, I now believe a person should just build a arrow for the animal they want to hunt and go have fun!!!

Honestly, I feel its just an influencer thing to say "different arrow for different animals" Sharp broadhead and straight shooting arrow is all you need to kill anything. AT MOST the only difference would be broadhead choice for animal

 

[Beendare]

I am changing significantly with my current set up and based on these comments I might actually go lighter than I mentioned in the original post. My current set up is 300 spine black eagle carnivore arrows with a 100 grain brass insert, 150 grain broadhead and silent knight 3 fletch. Total arrow weight is ~517 grains and I think 19-20% FOC.
After reading these comments and looking at other people's set ups, I will more than likely go with the Easton 5.0 in 300 spine with the HIT inserts and Match collar, 125 grain fixed blade and AAE Hybrid HP vanes. Total weight is ~ 417 grains with 14.5% FOC.
Changing to a setup like this sounds like I will get the penetration I need for elk while also having forgiveness with misjudged yardages.

FWIW, over the years, I have seen a significant difference in durability with the carbon shafts that are under about 9GPI.

Just not enough carbon or something. I was breaking those from a couple different mnfr's...but then went back to the heavier walled arrows, 10GPI or better, it's really hard to break them at all.

If I was shooting those Easton 5.0, I wouldn't go under the 250's.

 

[No_Murphy]

FWIW, over the years, I have seen a significant difference in durability with the carbon shafts that are under about 9GPI.

Just not enough carbon or something. I was breaking those from a couple different mnfr's...but then went back to the heavier walled arrows, 10GPI or better, it's really hard to break them at all.

If I was shooting those Easton 5.0, I wouldn't go under the 250's.

My black eagle arrows I use now are 8.5 GPI, Eastons are 8.4. I have not had much of a problem with my arrows breaking. There are a few scenarios where they do break, but in those scenarios (like the deer falling on my arrow) I would expect most arrows to break. The wall of the eastons will actually be heavier than my current ones because the eastons are .204 diameter and my current ones are .245.

 

[Beendare]

My black eagle arrows I use now are 8.5 GPI, Eastons are 8.4. I have not had much of a problem with my arrows breaking. There are a few scenarios where they do break, but in those scenarios (like the deer falling on my arrow) I would expect most arrows to break. The wall of the eastons will actually be heavier than my current ones because the eastons are .204 diameter and my current ones are .245.

Look, you came here asking for advice....your initial question shows you don't know jack.....sometimes I don't know why I bother.....

 

[No_Murphy]

Look, you came here asking for advice....your initial question shows you don't know jack.....sometimes I don't know why I bother.....

I do want advice. I have just noticed my arrows don't seem to break that easily when I have harvested deer with them. One of the reasons why I was considering the Easton 5.0 is because the GPI is similar to what I have now and being a smaller diameter arrow (which is also what I want) the wall will be thicker.

 

[NXTZ]

I do want advice. I have just noticed my arrows don't seem to break that easily when I have harvested deer with them. One of the reasons why I was considering the Easton 5.0 is because the GPI is similar to what I have now and being a smaller diameter arrow (which is also what I want) the wall will be thicker.

I wanna preface this by saying I’m being sincere and not trying to be a dick; this is the internet and text can seem confrontational whereas a conversation would be friendly-that’s my intent.

What problem are you trying to solve? I’m pretty new too, I love tinkering and screwing with gear, but hand to God, if you have arrows that fly well and have been working for you, just practice with them and become deadly at your personal shot distances.

Why do you want a smaller diameter arrow? Again, this isn’t ment to be confrontational, but honestly ask yourself what you want to gain by this? High modulus carbon (like the 5.0) has been more brittle for me/from what I’ve seen. You’re probably not getting a tougher arrow this way; materials and construction matter too, not just wall thickness.

In another post you mentioned forgiveness with a lighter arrow if you misjudge distance. I wanna caution you here: yes, a faster arrow will more forgiving. No, it won’t save you if you grossly misjudge distance, you’ll still miss. It may help a little at longer ranges if a critter takes a step to two, but what’s you max effective hunting distance? Here’s a shot (using your numbers/65 pound dw) of ESTIMATED arrow drop/yard between 417 and 517 grain arrows-pretty minimal difference IMO.

 

[NXTZ]

Tell you what-I have 5 Easton 5.0s, 300 spine, 27” c to c with 50 grain brass hits. Pm me and I’ll sell em to you for dirt cheap so you can try them out and see if it’s worth the hassle. I did 3 hot melt, 3 epoxy (and broke one on a tree screwing around) so you can even play around with foc.

I’m guilty of it too, but we as hunters and archers spend too much time and money f***ing around with inconsequential bullshit in the offseason instead of becoming masters of ourselves and our equipment. I’ve gone down the path you’re on, and I honestly want to spare you and anyone else who sees this the hassle and expense of changing good arrows for good arrows, just to come back around to shooting other good arrows.

 

[butcherboy]

I shoot easton fmj 340. 27” 50 grain brass HIT 100 grain broadhead. Zips right through them and I have no idea what the foc is. All I know is that my taw is 482 grains which is on the heavy side. I might remove the brass inserts or go with the fmj max. Probably have another 5 years before I draw an elk tag anyways.

 

[Beendare]

One of the reasons why I was considering the Easton 5.0 is because the GPI is similar to what I have now and being a smaller diameter arrow (which is also what I want)

There are many other experienced guys here that are down on the skinny shafts {edit; referring to 4mm shafts] besides myself. I can tell you I was sponsored by Beman back in the day and shot those skinny shafts for years. There is no real advantage to them...and many disadvantages, the biggest being components.


There are a lot of rabbit holes one can follow on these arrows. KISS is a good strategy and as others have said, spend your time refining your skills instead.

 

[blackveltbowhunter]

I consider myself experienced. I would never down a 5mm shaft. There isn't a single one ( of the common makes and models) on the market I wouldn't be comfortable hunting elk with. Im not even sure why we are questioning most components. Most are stainless, HIT is proven, im not a big halfout fan, but workarounds are many and fairly inexpensive.

The OP is considering 100 grn dump in arrow weight. Thats a rough estimate of speed increase of 20 fps. That is far from insignificant. Much more so if arrow speed is sub 260 already.

Some shafts simply won't get you below a certain weight period. Lower GPI shafts simply give more room to work with finished arrow weights.

At the OP the 5.0 is a great option IMO. I have had good luck with consistency, and durability. IMO it is an upgrade over the current arrow setup you have.