Lee Collet Die users question

[TimberHunter]

Hey all Lee Collet Users,


Edit to be more concise: can neck tension fluctuate when using the collet die resulting in large swings (-+50fps) when a FL die didn’t show these large swings with the same brass?





Long sorry if you care to read:
I recently started using the collet die and Redding body due to work hardening my brass less (I induction anneal each firing).

This was once fired Peterson brass. I was getting good velocities around 2637-2650 but then I moved the Labrador, started shooting a bit further (800 instead of 725 yards) and got a few around 2685 ish (3 shots) and a few around 2660. The 2660 seems reasonable to me but the 2685ish is concerning. Only other data is a small sample size of 5 at 100 yards FL sized that gave me an ES of 8 but that was only over 5 shots

Is it possible for me to not be using the collet directly correctly and getting some differing neck tensions? Maybe not the same amount of force on the press each time? That’s the only thing I can think of that would produce the large jump in velocity. Not hard bolt lifts


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[jfk69]

I don’t have an answer for your issue, but I struggle to see how the die, if properly set up, would cause differing neck tensions. I’d be inclined to think it’s maybe in the annealing. Fwiw, I only have annealed every third firing, as my routine is anneal, FL size, shoot, neck size with the Lee, shoot, neck size with the Lee, shoot, and start over. Lather, rinse and repeat. So I’ll only anneal every third firing.

Maybe the annealing every firing, then use of the Lee collet die, is creating irregularities due to the collet neck die working the brass less so it’s softer and less “springy”. Purely speculation on my part.

 

[TimberHunter]

I don’t have an answer for your issue, but I struggle to see how the die, if properly set up, would cause differing neck tensions. I’d be inclined to think it’s maybe in the annealing. Fwiw, I only have annealed every third firing, as my routine is anneal, FL size, shoot, neck size with the Lee, shoot, neck size with the Lee, shoot, and start over. Lather, rinse and repeat. So I’ll only anneal every third firing.

Maybe the annealing every firing, then use of the Lee collet die, is creating irregularities due to the collet neck die working the brass less so it’s softer and less “springy”. Purely speculation on my part.

I follow your thinking but when talking with brass manufactures, they said anneal every firing or don’t anneal at all. Erik cortina also follows this. My understanding is the brass is in theory consistent for each firing because it is freshly annealed

Please don’t change what you’re doing because it sounds like it works but in theory your neck tension would be different because the neck work hardens and springs back more or less when it’s sized leading to differing neck tension

I’m now leaning toward either the maybe the brass internal volume is as consistent because I’m sure this would’ve come out if it was the dies causing this issue

But long story short with my ES of 50 and SD of 17, it’s makes little difference when shooting under 1000 yards (form covered this on a recent shoot2hunt podcast)


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[JF_Idaho]

A hot chamber could start heating rounds and giving higher velocity depending how long they're cooking in there pre-shot. What powder?

The collet die should put the same neck tension as long as your putting the minimum pressure on the collet (25lbs Iirc). Any more shouldn't make a difference.

What about consistency of powder charge? It sounds like you have that dialed?

All brass trimmed to same length?

 

[TimberHunter]

A hot chamber could start heating rounds and giving higher velocity depending how long they're cooking in there pre-shot. What powder?

The collet die should put the same neck tension as long as your putting the minimum pressure on the collet (25lbs Iirc). Any more shouldn't make a difference.

What about consistency of powder charge? It sounds like you have that dialed?

All brass trimmed to same length?

Thanks for the post. To answer the questions:

1. I try to not let any round sit in the chamber when it’s warm. Bolt back until I’m on target then load and then shoot within 5-8 seconds

2. You are correct on the 25lbs, I have no way to know what 25lbs looks like so I push down fairly hard but don’t get any groves in the neck (what I’ve seen other say will happen if you push too hard)

3. Powder charge comes from a frankford intellidroper which is like an RCBS charge master. Goes to .1 of a grain but I’d bet I’m within +- .2 grains assuming the machine rounds.

4. I did forget to trim… I went and measured some of my other once fired brass and out of 12 random pieces I saw approx .007” difference. Most were within .003”-.004” of each other but ES was .007. None were above book max brass length. Could that cause a the issue I’m seeing?


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[JF_Idaho]

Yeah, I don't think 25lbs on the press is that much. I just try and do it as or a little harder than the feel of f/l sizing. Sometimes I squeeze it twice with a 1/4 turn of the casing in-between.

Not sure on how much the trim length could affect it. I'm sure a bit one way or the other. Might create a little bit extra pressure.

Between the trim length and the 2/10 grain swings I'm sure that could account for that es.

 

[TimberHunter]

Yeah, I don't think 25lbs on the press is that much. I just try and do it as or a little harder than the feel of f/l sizing. Sometimes I squeeze it twice with a 1/4 turn of the casing in-between.

Not sure on how much the trim length could affect it. I'm sure a bit one way or the other. Might create a little bit extra pressure.

Between the trim length and the 2/10 grain swings I'm sure that could account for that es.

Yeah they could be compounding..

I originally went the route of the collet die and Redding body die due to wanting to minimize how much I work harden brass and so that my brass doesn’t spring back when using the collet.

But I’m about to just go back to the standard FL die since I’m annealing the brass each time any ways. Main thing I’m looking for is just consistency whether I am hunting with 3rd fired brass or 12th fired brass


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[Wrench]

Your labradar is the problem. You're worried about a .5% spread. You could get that from primer seating, bullet depth, bullet size variations, barrel temp.....etc.

At the end of the day, what kind of groups does it print?

725 or 800 should both be plenty far enough to show the rifle and your potential.

I'm probably one of the guys who own more collet dies and most here and I find them to be super consistent. I do get collet marks on my brass and I have for 20 plus years. I also aneal and honestly can't remember the last time I trimmed brass length.

 

[JGRaider]

Your labradar is the problem. You're worried about a .5% spread. You could get that from primer seating, bullet depth, bullet size variations, barrel temp.....etc.

At the end of the day, what kind of groups does it print?

725 or 800 should both be plenty far enough to show the rifle and your potential.

I'm probably one of the guys who own more collet dies and most here and I find them to be super consistent. I do get collet marks on my brass and I have for 20 plus years. I also aneal and honestly can't remember the last time I trimmed brass length.

Agree 100%. I've been using the LCD/Redding body die combo for years and consistently produce excellent hunting ammo with minimal runout. IMO the problem lies with your reloading technique/components as mentioned above. I anneal every 3 firings at most.

 

[Pharmseller]

School me on the use of a neck sizer die

I bought a Lee collet neck sizer die to use for my brother's 7mm Rem Mag. I have a bunch of once-fired brass from his rifle. I've always just FL sized cases and called it good but I want to get the best accuracy possible out of his rifle. So, any advice on setup and operation? I have ...

www.24hourcampfire.com

Read the fourth post, by mathman. That’s how I set mine up.




P

 

[wind gypsy]

Anybody use undersized mandrels with these to get more neck tension?

My go to sizing method is a honed forster FL sizing die. Problem with that is when one brand of brass has thinner necks than you intended to spec them for, necks dont get sized enough. I figured rather than buying a whole new die, I'd give a $20 lee collet die a shot for this 100 ct batch of brass. Without making the mandrel a little smaller there is still only about 0.002" interference fit.

 

[Andouille]

Is it possible for me to not be using the collet directly correctly and getting some differing neck tensions? Maybe not the same amount of force on the press each time? That’s the only thing I can think of that would produce the large jump in velocity. Not hard bolt lifts

Possibly. I find that I have to run some cases twice in the collet die to get full neck tension; not sure why this happens. I check each case with a neck gauge, looking for about 0.002 neck tension. Cases that need more tension to back into the press and I rotate them about 90 degrees before running the ram. Fortunately, there seems to be a finite amount of tension that can be imparted with a fixed setting, so it doesn't appear that a case can be neck sized too many times. I might just make it standard practice to run each case 2-3 times (with 90-120 degree rotation) before measuring.

I did polish and lube the inside of my collet die, so the die is incredibly smooth now and takes maybe 5 lbs of pressure, so it's perhaps difficult to tell when the die is "done sizing" each case.

 

[TimberHunter]

Your labradar is the problem. You're worried about a .5% spread. You could get that from primer seating, bullet depth, bullet size variations, barrel temp.....etc.

At the end of the day, what kind of groups does it print?

725 or 800 should both be plenty far enough to show the rifle and your potential.

I'm probably one of the guys who own more collet dies and most here and I find them to be super consistent. I do get collet marks on my brass and I have for 20 plus years. I also aneal and honestly can't remember the last time I trimmed brass length.

I haven’t shot for group size at that distance, mainly just steel targets so I likely need to look into doing that.

The Labrador is suppose to be accurate to within .1% which equates to 2.65fps so not sure it’s the problem? If it was just one shot in the 2680s I would’ve brushed it off but I got 3 then a 2660


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[TimberHunter]

Your labradar is the problem. You're worried about a .5% spread. You could get that from primer seating, bullet depth, bullet size variations, barrel temp.....etc.

At the end of the day, what kind of groups does it print?

725 or 800 should both be plenty far enough to show the rifle and your potential.

I'm probably one of the guys who own more collet dies and most here and I find them to be super consistent. I do get collet marks on my brass and I have for 20 plus years. I also aneal and honestly can't remember the last time I trimmed brass length.

Do you anneal before each time you use the collet die? If not, have you noticed the brass springing back more and more with the more reloads you get on that piece of brass?


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[Castle Rock]

Anybody use undersized mandrels with these to get more neck tension?

My go to sizing method is a honed forster FL sizing die. Problem with that is when one brand of brass has thinner necks than you intended to spec them for, necks dont get sized enough. I figured rather than buying a whole new die, I'd give a $20 lee collet die a shot for this 100 ct batch of brass. Without making the mandrel a little smaller there is still only about 0.002" interference fit.

I generally take a couple of thousandths off because I don’t anneal and after a couple of firings spring back becomes an issue
I set the press to cam over which helps with consistency

 

[Wrench]

Do you anneal before each time you use the collet die? If not, have you noticed the brass springing back more and more with the more reloads you get on that piece of brass?


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On my 223ai....no. on cases wjere brass is more money, yes. Does it help.....I can't shoot the difference.

 

[TimberHunter]

On my 223ai....no. on cases wjere brass is more money, yes. Does it help.....I can't shoot the difference.

How many fires without annealing have you done with the collet die? Starting to wonder if people are making up the hole bounce back issue

I did a very small test:

(3) 4 times fired Hornady brass in my rifle
(2) once fired Hornady brass in my rifle

I’ve never annealed any of this brass. Used the collet die (size, spin and size again) and the once fired neck OD’s were .288”. The 4 times fired were .289”. Loaded Hornady ranges from .291-.292

I sized (size, spin, size) the 4th fired brass a second time and they weren’t down to .288”. I seated a bullet in them and didn’t notice too much difference in searing force. Maybe annealing is creating “sticky” necks for me?


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[Wrench]

I have some that are getting close to a dozen times.


I cut my chamber to minimum headspace and don't push it too hard (70rdf @ 2940)....so my brass has a pretty easy life.