Help with Mandrel setup

[TimberHunter]

Looking to go from using the expander button in my Lee FL 6.5cm to a mandrel setup that will hopefully increase consistency in neck tension.

So I’ve figured out I need the Sinclair mandrel body and the expander mandrel (-.001) and/or the neck turner mandrel (-.002)

But when it comes to FL sizing the brass do I keep my Lee FL die and just run it without the expander ball? If so I just need to get a universal decapping die. Currently the Lee is setup to only push the shoulder .001-.002

Or do I spend the money and get a Redding type S FL die with a bushing?



Math:
Currently my Lee FL die with the expander ball removed, sizes the brass neck down to .282.

Assuming I went the Redding type S route and was looking for a neck bushing .003-.004 smaller than the finished neck diameter (before bullet is seated), I’d be looking for a .285 bushing. Or I use my Lee FL die that pushing the neck diameter down to .282 (so .003 more than a bushing die would).

Which route would you go and why?


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[ResearchinStuff]

what's your 10 round group size currently? How many reloads can you get on your brass currently? you need to have a measurable benefit to justify the cost.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm not familiar with Lee dies but on other dies like redding you can remove the expander ball and still have the decapper on.

I've got a handful of type S bushing dies and custom spec'd expander mandrels (usually 0.0025" under bullet dia) collecting dust. Used to always decap, clean, size (without expander), expand with mandrel. Took way too much damn time.

Anymore I prefer to just use forster FL sizing dies with necks honed to be 3.5-4 thou under loaded ammo neck diameter and use the expander ball/decapper so sizing is one step rather than 3. The expander ball is hardly touching inside of the necks because they weren't sized that small. No detectable difference in ammo performance over the lengthy process I used to use.

 

[TimberHunter]

what's your 10 round group size currently? How many reloads can you get on your brass currently? you need to have a measurable benefit to justify the cost.

These are my most recent 8/9 shot groups (I usually save one or two for the magneto so I have to take the can off and POI is different)

Hornady brass on its 4the firing so not sure how many reloads I will get. Will likely go to better brass like Peterson very soon to hopefully reduce me ES. Current ES is around +-40fps over a crappy Caldwell chrono

Main reason for wanting to go to a mandrel setup is to increase neck tension consistently and work the brass less

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[wyosam]

I'm not familiar with Lee dies but on other dies like redding you can remove the expander ball and still have the decapper on.

I've got a handful of type S bushing dies and custom spec'd expander mandrels (usually 0.0025" under bullet dia) collecting dust. Used to always decap, clean, size (without expander), expand with mandrel. Took way too much damn time.

Anymore I prefer to just use forster FL sizing dies with necks honed to be 3-4 thou under loaded ammo neck diameter and use the expander ball/decapper so sizing is one step rather than 3. The expander ball is hardly touching inside of the necks because they weren't sized that small. No detectable difference in ammo performance over the lengthy process I used to use.

Same. I used to enjoy all those steps, but adding a toddler means I needed to be more efficient. If there’s a difference, I sure can’t shoot it.


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[Lawnboi]

There is no x+y= perfect tension in this case. Remember every time you move brass, it springs back a bit. This can be consistent one firing, and not the next (big reason I anneal)

Example: you can have a cheaper do all die squeeze the piss out of your neck, and run a .001 mandrel through it, and still have .003-.004 interference. Generally the less you work the brass on that first sizing the closer you’re going to get.

Personally I always use a mandrel of .002 under bullet diameter. This leaves me with .002-.003 interference, but I’m also using a bushing and squeezing the brass down .004 under loaded diameter, then opening it slightly with the mandrel, this is post anneal fwiw.

If you’re not annealing, you’re likely at the point that you’re going to begin noticing some cases are sizing more or less than others.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

you're going to spend a lot of money and probably not measurably improve your results. I have recently added a mandrel to my set up, but i'm loading on a 5 stage progressive press, so it's not costing me any time, and some of my necks have been getting dented in and were still visibly out of round coming out of my Type S full length die. if I'd just bought a basic full length sizing die to begin with I'd be money ahead for sure.

 

[TimberHunter]

you're going to spend a lot of money and probably not measurably improve your results. I have recently added a mandrel to my set up, but i'm loading on a 5 stage progressive press, so it's not costing me any time, and some of my necks have been getting dented in and were still visibly out of round coming out of my Type S full length die. if I'd just bought a basic full length sizing die to begin with I'd be money ahead for sure.

Good to know. Main thing I’m trying to accomplish is reduce my ES so it doesn’t eat me up on longer 700+ yards when I’m practicing. Other than that, I’m very happy with my 9 shot groups at 100 out of my tikka hunting rifle

Do you think upgrading to a better brass manufacturer would reduce my ES? Wondering if that may be the best bang for my buck considering what I’m trying to accomplish


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[TimberHunter]

I'm not familiar with Lee dies but on other dies like redding you can remove the expander ball and still have the decapper on.

I've got a handful of type S bushing dies and custom spec'd expander mandrels (usually 0.0025" under bullet dia) collecting dust. Used to always decap, clean, size (without expander), expand with mandrel. Took way too much damn time.

Anymore I prefer to just use forster FL sizing dies with necks honed to be 3-4 thou under loaded ammo neck diameter and use the expander ball/decapper so sizing is one step rather than 3. The expander ball is hardly touching inside of the necks because they weren't sized that small. No detectable difference in ammo performance over the lengthy process I used to use.

To accomplish this I’m assuming the foster FL die is a bushing die on the neck and then uses the expander ball to pull it up to desired neck tension diameter? If that’s the case, is the main benefit of that to not over work the neck by not sizing it way down and then ripping an expander through it like normal FL dies do?


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[Lawnboi]

I should also mention that I now mandrel on the down stroke with a SAC die. With the expanding/decapping rod in place my brass only touches my press one time. Time saver.

I do have the Sinclair die and do have to use it for odd cartridges but anymore my time is more important and I spent the money to have one, or 2 less steps involved.

You’re likely going to gain more by going to lapua/alpha/Peterson brass than doing anything else.

 

[wind gypsy]

To accomplish this I’m assuming the foster FL die is a bushing die on the neck and then uses the expander ball to pull it up to desired neck tension diameter?

No, it is not a bushing die. It's a standard FL sizing die with a customer specified neck diameter that is not adjustable.

If that’s the case, is the main benefit of that to not over work the neck by not sizing it way down and then ripping an expander through it like normal FL dies do?

Yes. Ideally the expander ball is coming through a neck that is about 0.001 tighter than the expander so it's not meeting much resistance coming through. Good brass makes any reliance on the expander even less because the variance in thickness isn't pushed to the inside of the neck when sized.

2 examples: I have a 6.5x47 die, the standard FL die neck dimension is 0.2840, my custom honed one is 0.2865, so it works the neck 2.5 thou less every sizing operation. 6 creedmoor standard forster FL die neck is 0.2620, my custom honed one is 0.2685" which works the brass 6.5 thou less each sizing operation (but is not quite tight enough for my alpha brass..)