Lead ingestion health risks

PistolPete said:
The site was huntfortruth.org - it's still accessible on archive.org, I believe.

And I don't know about the condor isotope isssue, but I do know that the guys at the North American Non-Lead Partnership admitted when I went to their training that the proportion of condor mortality due to lead toxicity remained unchanged after banning lead bullets for hunting in the condor range - that fits with the different isotope issue.

They seemed shocked when I pointed out that their own data indicate that changing to non lead bullets does not improve avian lead toxicity mortality...
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So this is the big weakness of the raptor and lead studies out there. They assume that particles of metallic lead in carcasses are the source of eagle and raptor lead levels. While that is not an unrealistic initial assumption, it should be tested. I have not seen that work anywhere to date.
 
Dave C. said:
I can't recall the name of the website. Had something with "Truth" in it, I believe. "Search for Truth" or something like that but I can't find it under that name on an internet search. It basically took every argument the liars claimed and provided research to refute it and prove otherwise. It was geared more toward the lead shot argument leading to raptor deaths, etc (which has never been proven). For example, they proved that the lead isotopes found in dead condors were not the same lead as that found in bird shot but instead was likely coming from paint on some towers in their nesting area. Of course, the govt would never want to admit that because it doesn't fit their agenda. Anecdotal evidence suggests it's all a lie as well. I eat game several days a week, most shot with lead bullets(sans the elk I kill with a bow). I eat pheasants taken with lead shot and when I fished a lot, would often have lead split shot in my mouth until I came up with the right wt combination that I needed for bait presentation. When I had my Lead serum level tested, it was undetectable despite all these ridiculous claims. How many people have you heard of dying from lead poisoning due to ingestion of game??? NONE. Because it's all a bunch of BS.
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Respect your opinion - there is A LOT of confounding study information out there. Have you read the studies included here? Its a long thread so maybe not. One of the biggest issues is whose agenda is the data being sponsored. The vast majority of it is coming from "green" and "anti-hunting" groups. We all know how that is going to end. Some of the better data (IMO) is coming from non-US data that has no agenda here, but there is starting to be US based hunting data from red states too.

Being involved in this thread and seeing the grandiose statements by a lot of the slide regulars, some directed straight at me, I kept looking.

Keeping to the OP question:
We have evidence of lead from game being transmitted to humans. That is clear. What is not clear is evidence to it leading to a human death from eating game with verified lead from hunters.

What we do know is:
  • Ingesting lead is bad - ingesting it in larger quantities is worse
  • For those who ingest large quantities, the health risks are well documented and are supported consistently no matter which side of the house you are on
  • Those health risks are especially critical for child bearing parents and young humans - there is a direct correlation between BLL levels of lead and cognitive disorders in children and even kidney disease in adults
  • There are 4 studies that show a direct link to game meat shot with rifle bullets and shot, increasing BLL levels in adults - this was the actual OP question
  • There appears to be no consensus on the exact level of lead that causes issues in every human

    The 4 studies that were included here - 2 of them weren't even in the US - so likely less of an agenda since those countries advocate for hunting and their populations live on it.

Will submit a few more -





These are not my data nor my work - simply reading them and forming my own opinion - up to you to do the same.
  • After reading about 20 papers now, saying there is NO evidence of lead from hunting does not pass from the game to humans is false. This was the OP question
  • I also read that in some data the direct and verified blood link from that same lead scientifically verified transmission and adverse events in humans - adults to a certain extent but undeniably to fetus and children
  • Completely agree, in adults like us that it a ton of game meat, I can find no evidence showing death from it. I can also not find anything that shows that in large samples sets - meaning thousands of people
  • The source of the data means a lot - some is probably really good, some maybe not

My thing is if I can read actual data and make a decision, it is better than listening to me or anyone else on here's opinion...I can find out for myself.
 
Dave C. said:
You're either one of the stupid smart people or part of the propaganda machine. First, your "retrospective study" is garbage. Garbage in, garbage out. First, the "study" is a meta-analysis and review of other literature. If you compile information and data from multiple studies which were originally suited to comply with an agenda or poorly performed, you get more of the agenda-driven results. Second, YOU HAVE PROVIDED ZERO PROOF OF ANYTHING. You like to sound smart and persuasive but actually are showing your ignorance. And for that reason, I'm not going to get into an argument with you as I have with many others in the past over this subject because it's futile.
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Thanks for your polite and nice response:
Its not my data - not setting out to prove anything to you - only to answer the OP question
The 4 studies listed as direct references are stand along papers, not meta-analysis or retrospective studies
If you haven't read the 4 studies, I encourage you to
 
Dave C. said:
Really????? Where are the blood levels reported in the study????? If they were done as part of a LEGITIMATE study, they'd report them BUT THEY DIDN'T!!!!
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How do you define legitimate? Is it your definition or is it what actual Phd scientists have set as a standard?
 
Dave C. said:
You're either one of the stupid smart people or part of the propaganda machine. First, your "retrospective study" is garbage. Garbage in, garbage out. First, the "study" is a meta-analysis and review of other literature. If you compile information and data from multiple studies which were originally suited to comply with an agenda or poorly performed, you get more of the agenda-driven results. Second, YOU HAVE PROVIDED ZERO PROOF OF ANYTHING. You like to sound smart and persuasive but actually are showing your ignorance. And for that reason, I'm not going to get into an argument with you as I have with many others in the past over this subject because it's futile.
Click to expand...

Dave C. said:
Really????? Where are the blood levels reported in the study????? If they were done as part of a LEGITIMATE study, they'd report them BUT THEY DIDN'T!!!!
Click to expand...

Dave C. said:
Article 4 is one of the guys still wearing a mask, has all his boosters and believes Covid came from the wet market because all the studies told him so.
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Dave, this has so far been a really respectful and productive conversation so far. Please try to keep it that way. @Article 4, thank you for not rising to the bait. I disagree with your conclusions to a moderate extent, but I really respect the way you've handled yourself in this thread.
 
Dave C. said:
Article 4 is one of the guys still wearing a mask, has all his boosters and believes Covid came from the wet market because all the studies told him so.
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Unfortunate -
eric1115 said:
Dave, this has so far been a really respectful and productive conversation so far. Please try to keep it that way. @Article 4, thank you for not rising to the bait. I disagree with your conclusions to a moderate extent, but I really respect the way you've handled yourself in this thread.
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All good, No intent to change anyones mind - did a lot of work and took a lot of time to provide more than just wild innuendo - appreciate that you took a look

Cheers and thanks!
 
I ended up switching to copper about 10 years ago. At the time it was when I switched from a 32 special to a .270

The .270 loves the Barnes TTSX and now I find myself a bit torn. I don’t think I’m going to get sick from eating game shot with lead but there is somewhat of a psychological aspect that keeps me from jumping back to traditional bullets.

There is absolutely no argument that lead performs better on game in a lot of situations. The high BC of heavy for caliber bullets is legit. I haven’t built a long range rifle but when I do it’ll likely be a 7mm using a relatively high BC bullet, my eye is on the Terminal Ascent.

Although this year I shot a doe with a Brenneke 12 gauge lead slug. It’s eating pretty damn good!
 
RockAndSage said:
Respectfully, it's about the political dangers of not being unified. Rights lost are almost always gone forever. And it's the salami-slicing of those rights away that eventually leads to the shocking gun bans and confiscations in places like Australia, the UK, and, IIRC, NZ as well.

And this issue specifically is absolutely perfect as a trojan horse for a gun-ban workaround.

In the US they've had increasing difficulty in getting around our 2nd Amendment in the courts and in legislatures across the country. Banning ammo and banning shooting on public lands are absolutely, explicitly part of their agenda on forcing more gun control, to get around this.

It starts with banning lead shot on waterfowl. Then lead ammo in specific zones of California. Then lead ammo bans for all hunting across California, and now certain federal lands. This has already happened. And it is a relentless march by the left.

Next steps are bans on all lead ammo on state lands, one by one. And bans on lead ammo on all federal land. This a very easy leap for them to argue, because "lead poisoning" and how easy it is for everyone to believe shoddy science. And each is just one more salami slice, one election cycle at a time.

Once lead ammo is banned on all federal and state lands, the next step would be bans on copper bullets - because, frankly, copper is a heavy metal too. But the bans on ammo types and shooting on public lands aren't the reason it's pushed politically - that reason is further gun control.

So the issue isn't about who cares what you or other hunters use - the issue is making sure any "science" around the issue isn't politically motivated with biased agendas, to further take away our rights. I happen to live in a vast, remote part of America, in a state that is owned 87% by the federal government. Nevada. This is a real threat to my freedom and that of all of my descendants to come, and it's fueled by radical agendas, weaponized by biased and politically driven "science", and aimed at voters who don't know any better.

It's dangerous as hell. And that's why it matters.
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When you take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of the 99% of the voting public who doesn’t think about hunting, I actually believe when sportsman dig into an issue like this it does more harm than good .

With news stories of Bald Eagles flooding the local raptor center with lead posing following hunting season, it does far more damage to our long term prospects of maintaining rights than any slippery slope towards backwards gun bans. It communicates that we don’t give a shit, and when that is perceived that is how you get regulation shoved down your throat.
 
Dave C. said:
Article 4 is one of the guys still wearing a mask, has all his boosters and believes Covid came from the wet market because all the studies told him so.
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And this is why trying to have a discourse on complicated topics here turns into pissing in the wind.

I hope you get many likes with that sweet burn.
 
Taprack9 said:
I ended up switching to copper about 10 years ago. At the time it was when I switched from a 32 special to a .270

The .270 loves the Barnes TTSX and now I find myself a bit torn. I don’t think I’m going to get sick from eating game shot with lead but there is somewhat of a psychological aspect that keeps me from jumping back to traditional bullets.

There is absolutely no argument that lead performs better on game in a lot of situations. The high BC of heavy for caliber bullets is legit. I haven’t built a long range rifle but when I do it’ll likely be a 7mm using a relatively high BC bullet, my eye is on the Terminal Ascent.

Although this year I shot a doe with a Brenneke 12 gauge lead slug. It’s eating pretty damn good!
Click to expand...
Shoot what makes you happy. The animals won’t care.
 
Taprack9 said:
I ended up switching to copper about 10 years ago. At the time it was when I switched from a 32 special to a .270

The .270 loves the Barnes TTSX and now I find myself a bit torn. I don’t think I’m going to get sick from eating game shot with lead but there is somewhat of a psychological aspect that keeps me from jumping back to traditional bullets.

There is absolutely no argument that lead performs better on game in a lot of situations. The high BC of heavy for caliber bullets is legit. I haven’t built a long range rifle but when I do it’ll likely be a 7mm using a relatively high BC bullet, my eye is on the Terminal Ascent.

Although this year I shot a doe with a Brenneke 12 gauge lead slug. It’s eating pretty damn good!
Click to expand...

Hoopleheader said:
Shoot what makes you happy. The animals won’t care.
Click to expand...

I would respectfully request that the politics and bullet preference discussion be taken to other threads that are about that. My hope is to keep this thread focused on a discussion of the evidence in support of or against the arguments regarding human health risks around lead ingestion from eating game meat.

No doubt the bullet and political questions are important ones, but they belong in another thread.
 
Article 4 said:
  • There are 4 studies that show a direct link to game meat shot with rifle bullets and shot, increasing BLL levels in adults - this was the actual OP question
Click to expand...

can you link those here as I have not read any of what you have posted to show that the lead from the bullets increases lead blood levels conclusively. There is no study that says this meat which we tested for lead level and then fed to someone resulted in a blood level increase. I see several including the below that say, we can find some lead in game meat. They then go on to say that some of the people who eat game have higher lead levels. That is not causation. That is correlation at best.

I expect if you tested hunters/shooter we as a whole have higher lead levels than the general population. Mine was 2 last time I had it checked. The source of the lead is not addressed and I expect that many with higher levels, reload and or handle fired brass.

The Greenland study does show if you eat meat with high lead levels it can cause an increase, but as I read it, didn’t get to the source of the lead. It didn’t look at bird lead levels when shot by steel shot and by lead shot. It made the jump that the birds were shot by lead and this had lead from the shot which may or may not be true. If they established the source of the lead I would give a lot more credibility to establishing a link between shooting an animal and that lead causing elevated human lead levels. From that study if I had kids or a pregnant wife, I would have them not eat sea birds.

Article 4 said:
Will submit a few more -

Click to expand...
 
I was diagnosed with an auto immune disease 4 years ago, and have quarterly blood draws/tests every year since then. I've killed and eaten game animals with lead shot and lead bullets since 1971, and my lead levels are normal. This lead bullet infusion notion is pure nonsense.
 
JGRaider said:
I was diagnosed with an auto immune disease 4 years ago, and have quarterly blood draws/tests every year since then. I've killed and eaten game animals with lead shot and lead bullets since 1971, and my lead levels are normal. This lead bullet infusion notion is pure nonsense.
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That's super interesting. Do you mind sharing your BLL's? Do they stay consistent quarter to quarter? Does your game meat consumption stay consistent throughout the year, or does it vaymry seasonally?

If you'd rather not share I understand, but the data would be really neat to see if you're willing.
 
They stay consistent from quarter to quarter as far as lead goes, yes. Other things, not so much. We usually eat 2-3 axis does every year. I consider it, but won't make any promises about sharing data.
 
Bluefish said:
can you link those here as I have not read any of what you have posted to show that the lead from the bullets increases lead blood levels conclusively. There is no study that says this meat which we tested for lead level and then fed to someone resulted in a blood level increase. I see several including the below that say, we can find some lead in game meat. They then go on to say that some of the people who eat game have higher lead levels. That is not causation. That is correlation at best.

I expect if you tested hunters/shooter we as a whole have higher lead levels than the general population. Mine was 2 last time I had it checked. The source of the lead is not addressed and I expect that many with higher levels, reload and or handle fired brass.

The Greenland study does show if you eat meat with high lead levels it can cause an increase, but as I read it, didn’t get to the source of the lead. It didn’t look at bird lead levels when shot by steel shot and by lead shot. It made the jump that the birds were shot by lead and this had lead from the shot which may or may not be true. If they established the source of the lead I would give a lot more credibility to establishing a link between shooting an animal and that lead causing elevated human lead levels. From that study if I had kids or a pregnant wife, I would have them not eat sea birds.
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Again, these are not my data - and I am simply relaying what I read and letting people read through it and develop thier thoughts. As such, I cannot answer why or why not the did something in the study.

  • Hunt - there is WAY more in the study than just this next statement but this was the conclusion statement within the study.
We conclude that people risk exposure to bioavailable lead from bullet fragments when they eat venison from deer killed with standard lead-based rifle bullets and processed under normal procedures.

  • Johansen: This is a bird study however it showed a direct correlation between the lead in the bird and transmission to humans. The OP didn't specify the type of lead (rifle or shot) but lead is lead.
There is a clear relationship between the number of bird meals and the blood lead concentration of the participants in this study, which also shows that eiders are more important as a lead source than murres. These findings support our conclusion from an earlier study of lead in murre and eider meat, indicating that lead shot used to kill these birds are an important lead source to people in Greenland

  • Bjermo,
This study does not directly say that lead shot animals contributed. It was included due to a few folks saying that there is no link to side affects of health issue. This study talks about the adverse affects.


  • Linboe - When I looked up the original paper it came up as a stand alone abstract and I didn't want to pay for the full paper, its a quick read if you want to go read it. Ill quote it since I didn't include it in a previous post.

They looked at Moose shot with lead rifle bullets stating "consumers eating a moderate meat serving (2 g kg(-1) bw), a single serving would give a lead intake of 11 µg kg(-1) bw on average, with maximum of 220 µg kg(-1) bw. The results indicate that the intake of meat from big game shot with lead-based bullets imposes a significant contribution to the total human lead exposure."


Again, none of this information changes my thoughts on eating wild game. It simply answers the OP Question
 
Bluefish said:
can you link those here as I have not read any of what you have posted to show that the lead from the bullets increases lead blood levels conclusively. There is no study that says this meat which we tested for lead level and then fed to someone resulted in a blood level increase. I see several including the below that say, we can find some lead in game meat. They then go on to say that some of the people who eat game have higher lead levels. That is not causation. That is correlation at best.

I expect if you tested hunters/shooter we as a whole have higher lead levels than the general population. Mine was 2 last time I had it checked. The source of the lead is not addressed and I expect that many with higher levels, reload and or handle fired brass.

The Greenland study does show if you eat meat with high lead levels it can cause an increase, but as I read it, didn’t get to the source of the lead. It didn’t look at bird lead levels when shot by steel shot and by lead shot. It made the jump that the birds were shot by lead and this had lead from the shot which may or may not be true. If they established the source of the lead I would give a lot more credibility to establishing a link between shooting an animal and that lead causing elevated human lead levels. From that study if I had kids or a pregnant wife, I would have them not eat sea birds.
Click to expand...
Missed adding the links

If you go to the meta/retrospective study paper - scroll to the references and click on the DOI links - it will take you directly to the original paper
 
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