Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[realunlucky]

my CTR is 10.5# fully kitted with bipods and all. it's a sub.5moa gun with handloads.

At 10.5 your gun really isn't a comparison to any of the others talked about in this thread

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[GKPrice]

***Update: went to the range again today to basically repeat the same procedure as last time and see if results were different/similar, and to what degree. I did experiment with different rifle support methods with the last two groups.

Rifle: Kimber Montana 308win (Feb. 2016 date of manufacture)

Conditions: Overcast, 48-50degF, no wind.

Procedure:

As last time, targets were set at 100yds. Shot nine 3-shot groups of various types of ammunition. Allowed rifle to cool in a muzzle-up position with the bolt fully to the rear for ~7min between each string of three shots.

An attempt was made to shoot the ammo in the reverse order as from the first running of the experiment. I didn't have my field notes with me from last time, so I was going from memory as to what order the first run was performed in; didn't quite get there.

All were shot with a front bean bag rest and the butt stock only supported by hand against the shoulder, except the last group (Federal Fusion, 150gr), which was shot with the support hand firmly holding onto the front portion of the stock near the sling swivel.​

Types of ammo (all 308win), in order they were fired:

- 1) Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X 178gr
- 2) Hornady Superformance SST 150gr
*** adjusted scope left 2moa since all groups were left of center
- 3) Hornady Full Boar 165gr
- 4) Remington Hog Hammer 168gr
- 5) Federal Fusion 165gr
*** adjusted scope left 1moa
- 6) Federal Fusion 180gr
- 7) Federal Fusion 150gr (group #1)
*** changed position to bipod-supported vs. resting on front bag
- 8) Federal Fusion 150gr (same lot as above, group #2)
*** removed bipod and altered position to using support hand to hold foregrip
- 9) Federal Fusion 150gr (same lot as above, group #3)​

Observations:

Federal Fusion 180gr choked on several attempts of feeding the first of three from the magazine when trying to ease it into the chamber, but went in with more forceful bolt manipulation.

Because I only had enough daylight to print one group (the last group of three 150gr Fusions) while holding the foregrip manually (hand between bean bag and front of stock) I can draw no solid conclusion as to the effect of this technique.

The shots all felt solid, and before the trigger breaking for each shot, the crosshairs were moving over an extreme spread of 0.5" at most.​

Top Target:

Bottom Target:

am I just not awake yet or is #9 noticeably smaller ? why no Nosler ammo ? 165 Accubond and 165 TSX produced best groups in the Kimber 308's I worked with but they were handloads - RL-15/210M/Nosler brass

 

[Yellowknife]

am I just not awake yet or is #9 noticeably smaller ? why no Nosler ammo ? 165 Accubond and 165 TSX produced best groups in the Kimber 308's I worked with but they were handloads - RL-15/210M/Nosler brass

I've dealt with a couple rifles that shot like that. IMO, if groups are that random, don't bother chasing your tail with ammo trying to find the "one" that works. It's rifle or scope related root cause, so even if you find one that works for a 3 (or even a lucky 5 shot) group during testing, whatever the issue is will eventually rear it's head and cause flyers. Been there... done that. Wasted a lot of ammo learning those lessons too.

IMO, If you want to keep messing with it, pick one or two different types of ammo and use it until you figure out what you need to do to tighten groups up. Will save you range time and money. Once you solve the root issue, then you can test if you want to see if one brand shoots slightly tighter than another.

Also, if you are dealing with an inconsistent gun, one good three shot group isn't statistically relevant. Sometimes they just happen to fly together. If you think you have cracked the code, shoot enough to make sure you weren't just lucky.

 

[Rorschach]

There is nothing here that's statistically significant, as Yellowknife stated. However, the last group (#9) was fired with a different method of holding the rifle, one that was recommended by someone earlier in the comments.

My plan right now is that, next time I'm at the range, I will hold the rifle in the way that the last group was fired and see what happens, and repeat the entire experiment (may have to spread over two trips, as I often don't get that much uninterrupted time at the range since I normally go before work in the mornings). If all of them shrink (which I would honestly be shocked by - holding the rifle like that is counter to what I've always heard for obtaining the best accuracy), then that'll just be another data point to interpret later.

A Tikka T3x Superlite in 308 should be coming in sometime this week or next, so what I'll do at that point is redo my initial experiment (same ammo, same optic, same mounts, etc.) with that rifle and see what kind of results are obtained.

As to why there is no Nosler ammo - it's because they didn't have any at BPS when I purchased the kinds I've been using.

 

[Rorschach]

I just noticed your recommendation to pick one or two brands and stick with those to save time and money until I figure out what the issue is.

I will consider this. There are some of these that have 'consistently' grouped pretty terribly between both range sessions so far, and it might not be a bad idea to eliminate those, you're right. However, I hate to alter the experiment and not know how changing this or that factor affects the complete set of ammunition I was testing with.

But it would make it a lot less time/dough-consuming.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I've dealt with a couple rifles that shot like that. IMO, if groups are that random, don't bother chasing your tail with ammo trying to find the "one" that works. It's rifle or scope related root cause, so even if you find one that works for a 3 (or even a lucky 5 shot) group during testing, whatever the issue is will eventually rear it's head and cause flyers. Been there... done that. Wasted a lot of ammo learning those lessons too.

IMO, If you want to keep messing with it, pick one or two different types of ammo and use it until you figure out what you need to do to tighten groups up. Will save you range time and money. Once you solve the root issue, then you can test if you want to see if one brand shoots slightly tighter than another.

Also, if you are dealing with an inconsistent gun, one good three shot group isn't statistically relevant. Sometimes they just happen to fly together. If you think you have cracked the code, shoot enough to make sure you weren't just lucky.

 

[GKPrice]

I've dealt with a couple rifles that shot like that. IMO, if groups are that random, don't bother chasing your tail with ammo trying to find the "one" that works. It's rifle or scope related root cause, so even if you find one that works for a 3 (or even a lucky 5 shot) group during testing, whatever the issue is will eventually rear it's head and cause flyers. Been there... done that. Wasted a lot of ammo learning those lessons too.

IMO, If you want to keep messing with it, pick one or two different types of ammo and use it until you figure out what you need to do to tighten groups up. Will save you range time and money. Once you solve the root issue, then you can test if you want to see if one brand shoots slightly tighter than another.

Also, if you are dealing with an inconsistent gun, one good three shot group isn't statistically relevant. Sometimes they just happen to fly together. If you think you have cracked the code, shoot enough to make sure you weren't just lucky.

I thought "we" had covered this but what Yellowknife is saying is ABSOLUTELY true - and it "could" be something very seemingly insignificant, this sort of thing can, and often does, happen to any rifle or just a good shooter that you change something on - People who don't realize this is more the "norm" than they understand will often sell a gun thinking it's a "lemon" and then someone will buy it used and discover a fantastic deal that "came along" .... My point ? Be patient and methodical, you'll more likely than not find a culprit and the next rifle you purchase will be that much easier to figure out because of it .... Remember, it's a hobby all unto itself
Years ago Jim Carmichael wrote an article about much the same topic, he had a 338 Win Mag he never touched from year to year (after originally zeroing it of course) that he took out each year and shot a group at the SAME TARGET year after year and the picture showed a big hole at the POA, illustrating that it's MOST often the shooter and not the gun AFTER you get the GUN figured out - nothing "magic" about it, just stay the course until you get it figger'd out

 

[Mtnboy]

Wow, as I said earlier in the thread, there are some FAR more knowledgeable people than myself commenting on this thread...but I'm just gonna throw it out there that my T3x .308 shoots better groups than any of those with every kind of ammo I've tried. 4-5 different kinds/weights of ammo I've shot have all shot at least an 1" at 100.

 

[JollyRoger]

Rorschach, I may have missed it if it was posted earlier in the thread, but what other rifles do you shoot and what kinds of groups do you get with them? I know sometimes with archery I start wanting to tinker with things because I'm not stacking arrows at 60 yards into a coffee cup sized circle consistently like some guys I see online. The reality is I get impatient, 'want it too bad', screw up my breathing, etc. and the shots arent as good as they could have been.

That said, if your other guns are getting moa or better in your hands... investigate and tinker away until it works (or you switch to something else, like Tikka)

 

[Rorschach]

Good question, and one that I'm surprised someone hasn't asked sooner (nor have I thought to provide that info).

I consider myself a 'good' shooter with both a rifle and a pistol; I am confident enough to say that I could go right now and shoot 1.5" at 100yds with no magnification and a quality red dot sight (Aimpoint Micro T2's are what I have on several other rifles, at the moment) and my own hand loads (223).

I've owned several other rifles in 308 and 30-06, equipped with Bushnell Elite scopes, both bolt and semi-auto, that I would 90% of the time shoot 0.5" 3rd groups at 100yds (again, reloaded AMAX's). In fact, those rifles are what I have hunted using until now.

Edit: I'm not calling a 3rd group an "moa all day long" rifle, it's just what I've usually shot.

 

[stevevan]

Save your time and $. Dump the Kimber. I'm sure to rustle a few feathers but I've owned 4 Kimbers over the years and never got one to shoot better than the groups you display. This included handloads. Needless to say all those 4 are in different hands. Adding to that, I've never owned or toyed with a Tikka (or any now Sako product) that I could not get to shoot to my satisfaction. My comments are just my limited personal experiences and of course need to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Rorschach]

***Update: Used an abbreviated range session to try and ascertain the effect on group-size from holding firmly onto the front of the stock with the support hand.

Rifle: Kimber Montana 308win (Feb. 2016 date of manufacture)

Conditions: Sunny, 37-40degF, light breeze (0-2mph).

Procedure:

Targets were set at 100yds. Shot three 3-shot groups of Federal Fusion (various weights) and one 3-shot group of Federal Gold Medal Match. Allowed rifle to cool in a muzzle-up position with the bolt fully to the rear for ~7min between each string of three shots.

All were fired with the support hand resting palm-up on a bag and firmly holding onto the front portion of the stock near the front sling swivel. No support under the rear of the stock.​

Types of ammo (all 308win), in order they were fired:

- 1) Federal Fusion 150gr
- 2) Federal Fusion 180gr
- 3) Federal Fusion 165gr
- 4) Federal Gold Medal Match 7.62x51, 175gr​

Observations:

Again, Federal Fusion 180gr choked on several attempts of feeding the first of three from the magazine when trying to ease it into the chamber. Had to pull the round from the magazine and re-seat several times to get it to go in with forceful bolt manipulation (gently running the bolt, of course, was not successful in making the round chamber).

There were no discernible decreases in 3-shot group sizes between this and the other times these rounds were fired (at least not enough of a decrease to be attributed to anything but random chance).

The point of the Gold Medal Match was to try a round that presumably shoots alright (at least better than 1moa, though not usually too much better than that in rifles I've fired it in before) in most rifles.

The shots all felt solid, and before the trigger breaking for each shot, the crosshairs were moving over an extreme spread of 0.5" at most.​

Links to other range sessions:
Kimber 1 (1/27/17)
Kimber 2 (1/29/17)
Kimber 3 (1/31/17)
Tikka 1 (2/4/17)
Tikka 2 (2/6/17)
Tikka 3 (2/8/17)
Kimber 4 (2/9/17)
Kimber 5 (2/14/17)

Target:

 

[GKPrice]

***Update: Used an abbreviated range session to try and ascertain the effect on group-size from holding firmly onto the front of the stock with the support hand.

Rifle: Kimber Montana 308win (Feb. 2016 date of manufacture)

Conditions: Sunny, 37-40degF, light breeze (0-2mph).

Procedure:

Targets were set at 100yds. Shot three 3-shot groups of Federal Fusion (various weights) and one 3-shot group of Federal Gold Medal Match. Allowed rifle to cool in a muzzle-up position with the bolt fully to the rear for ~7min between each string of three shots.

All were fired with the support hand resting palm-up on a bag and firmly holding onto the front portion of the stock near the front sling swivel. No support under the rear of the stock.​

Types of ammo (all 308win), in order they were fired:

- 1) Federal Fusion 150gr
- 2) Federal Fusion 180gr
- 3) Federal Fusion 165gr
- 4) Federal Gold Medal Match 7.62x51, 175gr​

Observations:

Again, Federal Fusion 180gr choked on several attempts of feeding the first of three from the magazine when trying to ease it into the chamber. Had to pull the round from the magazine and re-seat several times to get it to go in with forceful bolt manipulation (gently running the bolt, of course, was not successful in making the round chamber).

There were no discernible decreases in 3-shot group sizes between this and the other times these rounds were fired (at least not enough of a decrease to be attributed to anything but random chance).

The point of the Gold Medal Match was to try a round that presumably shoots alright (at least better than 1moa, though not usually too much better than that in rifles I've fired it in before) in most rifles.

The shots all felt solid, and before the trigger breaking for each shot, the crosshairs were moving over an extreme spread of 0.5" at most.​

Target:

didn't you say you reload for .223 ? a set of Redding dies for the 308 are less than $50, I'd try 150 premiums first just because it appears that your rifle prefers 150's and go from there - 150 Etips, TTSX, TSX and maybe GMX are all great game bullets that will flatten any elk that walks - it DOES seem to be patterning so pay close attention to OAL too - If it were me, I'd get dies and shorten the OAL on a couple of factory choices just a tiny bit and see what changes (I have an RCBS collet bullet puller that works well in reverse of that too) It looks like your shooting form is doing well too .....

 

[Rorschach]

Just went a store that had a box of Barnes Vortex ammo (150gr variety). I'm going to try that next time and see what happens.

This will sound whiny, but the whole point of this was to have a rifle that I didn't have to reload for to get it to shoot. If I shoot that Superlite and it really impresses me, this thing is gone. I have a set of dies for 308 that I reload using already; just didn't want to have to reload hunting ammo and work up a load. However, ironically, I've already put as much time into experimentation with different kinds of factory ammo as it would have taken to work up a hunting load.

I do like the lightweight-ness of the rig though. Just held a Savage 16 Weather Warrior in 338 and a Tikka T3 Lite in 300wm at a gunstore, and they were considerably heavier feeling than the Kimber; it really does feel nice in the hands, the way it's set up.

 

[wapitibob]

It groups just like my $600 Remington that was missing some rifling. Send it back, they have a 1 moa guarantee. Make them fix it.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm wondering if it'll be possible to return it for a full refund, if it comes to that.

 

[gdog]

I'd contact Kimber and see if they have any suggestions. Interested in how their c/s treats you....

 

[Rorschach]

It'll all be posted, right here, whatever happens.

 

[Trial153]

Save yourself headaches . Sell it and get a T3x and don't look back.

 

[GKPrice]

Save yourself headaches . Sell it and get a T3x and don't look back.

Seriously ?? It's a brand new out of the box MOA guaranteed rifle !

 

[GKPrice]

I'm wondering if it'll be possible to return it for a full refund, if it comes to that.

Call first and get an RMA # then send it back to them - Most likely, they'll have the test shooter shoot it himself, if it's you at least you'll know - Years back I knew a test shooter for Kimber, I'd trust their honesty if it were me - If it turns out to be the rifle, in their determination, they'll either replace it with a NIB or rebarrel it - either way you win unless you've just lost faith in Kimbers altogether (I wouldn't do that personally)
In times like this "patience is a virtue" ....