Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[elkguide]

To concur with GK, my Montana in .300WSM, I bought used from a guy that I'm sure hadn't put 20 rounds through it. I had no loads to start from nor data to work with so I began with what I could find on the internet. I've probably only put 5 or 600 rounds through it but it shoots way better today than when I got it and I ended up using the very first load that I came up with as the one it likes the best. Have no idea how it would shoot with factory ammo because I enjoy reloading too much.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Went to the range this morning to try and ascertain what kind of accuracy is attainable with the Montana. This is straight out of the box with the above-mentioned optic/rings mounted.

Gotta say, not impressed so far, but I'll give it another trip or two to perform before I try the Tikka.

Procedure:

Shot several different brands and types of hunting ammunition. I'd shoot a 3-round group with about 10sec between shots, then let it cool for 7min between strings, load up three rds of the next type of ammo, and repeat.

The front of the rifle was rested on a sandbag, and the rear was simply held into the pocket of the shoulder by hand (did not use the rice-filled sock pictured to rest the butt on).

While being allowed to cool between strings, the rifle was placed in a muzzle-up orientation to possibly aid cooling (chimney effect, possibly - photos below).​

Types of ammo (all 308win):

- Federal Fusion 180gr
- Federal Fusion 165gr
- Federal Fusion 150gr
- Hornady Superformance SST 150gr
- Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X 178gr
- Remington Hog Hammer 168gr
- Hornady Full Boar 165gr​

Observations:

- One thing I noticed is that the length-of-pull is way different than what I'm used to (AR stock fully extended). Feels much shorter, but the LOP measurement seems to be ~13.5" or so, exactly what was in the specs for the rifle (thought I might have gotten the wrong stock on it at first or something). The optic is mounted as far forward as it will go in those rings, which seems about right for offhand/upright shooting (affords a very comfortable and natural head-position when held in field positions).

- The optic and mounts mated very nicely with the contour of barrel(photo below); for my head geometry, the cheek weld is perfect. Super low. Haven't had a rifle that fits this nicely in a while.​

Photos attached below.

Results on target:

Objective clearance:

Rifle cooling between strings:

Just out of curiosity, pick up a box of Barnes TTSX in one of the lighter wts. (150 or 168gr.), and see how she likes 'em. For factory ammo, I've had very good results with the TTSX in all of my Kimber's. Every rifle is a little different, and it may or may not make a positive difference, but might be worth a try.

 

[Rorschach]

I will definitely try that, Bum. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm honestly wondering at this point, though, what the chances are of finding an ammo that it 'likes' being that the brands/types/weights were so diverse today and it didn't really care for any of them.

Maybe magic will happen around round 50-70 like GK was saying.

 

[luke moffat]

Maybe it will find something it likes better or maybe it won't.

Honestly I would try a few more groups with both the Fusion 180s and the Hornady 178s to verify similar results and rock on but that's just me.

I will say that both my Montana .308s shot Nosler Custom 165 Accubond factory loads right between .75-1.25" consistently everytime so they might be worth looking into as well.

 

[Rorschach]

luke - will definitely repeat this experiment.

Do most of you agree that I let the barrel cool enough time between shots? Too long? The muzzle of the barrel was cold to the touch at the 6min mark, with the chamber area of the barrel being slightly warm.

Edit: I meant "strings" instead of between "shots".

 

[GKPrice]

luke - will definitely repeat this experiment.

Do most of you agree that I let the barrel cool enough time between shots? Too long? The muzzle of the barrel was cold to the touch at the 6min mark, with the chamber area of the barrel being slightly warm.

Rorschach, Here's the deal - It's a HUNTING rifle right ?? doesn't that mean it's NOT a benchrest or competition rifle ? YOU do the math on a solid 1 1/2" shooter at 500 yards on the kill zone of a "good" mulie buck and tell me you can shoot any better than that .... This is not advice, this is "been there, done that" advice, my first Montana 30.06 shot 3 of 4 (repeated) groups into 7/8" 100 yds and I got "frustrated" and sold it to a buddy because I had just been working with 2 Montana 308's that would do 4 shots into ONE hole (2 of em!) and a month later came to my senses and bought another that hasn't quite lived up to that first one's capability but has accounted for everything I've flipped the safety off for since - LIVE AND LEARN, you would do well to learn from my stupidity I think ...... it cost me what a good scope would set me back

 

[GKPrice]

luke - will definitely repeat this experiment.

Do most of you agree that I let the barrel cool enough time between shots? Too long? The muzzle of the barrel was cold to the touch at the 6min mark, with the chamber area of the barrel being slightly warm.

forgot to mention MY opinion of waiting for the barrel of a HUNTING rifle to cool off - shoot whatever it holds ready to hunt as fast as you want to, then measure the group, that's always what I've done

 

[Rorschach]

Ooops, I messed that up (and edited my last post to reflect it) - meant, did I let the barrel cool off long enough between strings, not shots.

 

[wapitibob]

Sorry to see bud.

 

[elkguide]

Key words....... hunting rifle.

 

[GKPrice]

here's another tidbit learned from experience .... shooting form or style at the bench - lightweight rifles are a whole different breed to shoot, in particular from the bench - if you're not either shooting with one hand atop the scope applying a little downward pressure or reaching around the bag and pinching the furthermost part of the fore end to hold it down you'll have a heck of a time getting any kind of groups because from the time the primer ignites til the bullet leaves the muzzle I guarantee the barrel will begin it's "flip" - I'd stay away for "lead sleds" too, a really good way to tear up your stock internally IME - shooting from field positions it is up to the shooter to figure out what style or form he'll want to use but its paramount to figure that out ahead of time and practice because it'll be different "out there" than it is at the range - Lightweight rifles are a great invention and I love 'em but they must be tamed in a whole new way for each of us to figure out

 

[Rorschach]

Good to know - I've read y'all saying that in other threads before, but didn't try it at the range this first time. Next time, what I may do is shoot a group with the technique I used yesterday, then shoot another group with the same ammo but with more force downward, like you're saying (by simply holding on the forearm tight with support hand?).

Thanks for the assistance and helping me out from your experience, guys. Yeah, I realize it's a hunting rifle, but I've never purchased one this expensive before (I have AR's that have costed 2x as much, but never a bolt action before) and expected a little more out of it (granted, the cost could be said to have been due to the weight reduction). However, I do still have a little hope for smaller groups out of it, given what y'all have said about form, round count, etc.

And, having said that, there are one or two of those groups that aren't "bad".

 

[mt100gr.]

Throw a backpack on the ground and shoot it like you would at a critter.

Also, much like "target panic" in the archery game, I have found that busy, multi-target targets do not reflect my rifles potential....my targeting mind shoots at a single spot much more accurately. Get some of the stick on dots and put one on a sheet of printer paper and hang one target at a time. Just a suggestion that has helped me.

Lastly, as has been said, lightweight rifles are sensitive to every beat of your heart and wiggle of your pinky. My Kimber hunter weighs in at 6.5 lbs and it has taken quite a.few rounds to get used to. My 30-06 Superlite is but a half pound more and took considerably less taming.

Hang in there and shoot a bunch! You won't wear it out and trigger time is the best way to tighten up groups with a lightweight rifle.

 

[Formidilosus]

A couple of things....


1) Barrel heat. Just shoot it. If a rifle shoots groups that open up or walk when it gets hot, there is a problem with the barrel- i.e. not properly stressed relieved or the bedding needs work. Both of which I want to know about as I have no interest in hiding issues. A rifle properly put together will shoot 20-30 round groups with a sizzling barrel just fine.


2) Shooting technique. Yes, truly light rifles move more than 8lb guns, but not to the extent most think. ULA/NULA rifles are just as light or lighter and yet are renowned for shooting wonderfully... The reason that Tikka SL's shoot better than Montanas, has a lot less to do with "weight" and a whole lot more to do with "built correctly". Take all these finicky Montanas, get the barrel replaced and bedded, and all of a sudden they shoot great..... I'm not into the 57 truck move shooting technique deal. If I have to squint one eye 36 degrees to the west, stick my tongue out only on the left side, and shoot only on odd hearbeats.... I'd get it rebarreled and bedded. Good rifles will shoot. Finicky rifles are just finicky.


3) Accuracy. Or more appropriately- precision. Even a 4 MOA gun (4in at 100 yards, 8in at 200, etc) is "accurate" enough to kill the vast majority of big game that the vast majority of people kill. Having said that, on a rifle that I plan to use on animals out to 450 yards and possibly further, I want ten round groups of 2 MOA or less, consistently. A rifle that consistently shoots 3 shot "groups" of sub MOA is truly more like a 2-2.5 MOA gun when you actually shoot enough shots to matter. By that I mean- a 3 shot "sub MOA" gun can not consistently hit a sub MOA target. The whole point of "grouping" a hunting rifle is to know what size target you can hit, and how much margin of error you have at a particular animal/target.

 

[gdog]

I'm no rifle expert...but looking at your 8 groups...6 show vertical stringing to some extent. The other 2 are horizontal stringing. The groups are not scattered, but show some patterns..no(?) I've read that vertical stringing can be attributed to (one of the multitude of reasons) your shooting bag setup(?) I recently purchase a Kimber Mnt Ascent in 6.5 cm and have shot it limited times, but there is definitely a learning curve to shooting such a light rifle as others have already stated. Working on my technique alone, has made a big difference in the groups I'm getting with my rifle and there's still work to be done.

 

[GKPrice]

I'm no rifle expert...but looking at your 8 groups...6 show vertical stringing to some extent. The other 2 are horizontal stringing. The groups are not scattered, but show some patterns..no(?) I've read that vertical stringing can be attributed to (one of the multitude of reasons) your shooting bag setup(?) I recently purchase a Kimber Mnt Ascent in 6.5 cm and have shot it limited times, but there is definitely a learning curve to shooting such a light rifle as others have already stated. Working on my technique alone, has made a big difference in the groups I'm getting with my rifle and there's still work to be done.

the more you shoot the more you learn the nuances of shooting and also realize that sometimes it's the shooter having a better day today than yesterday .... AGAIN, "overthinking" can be the culprit in many of our "problems" - shoot a lot and shoot often

 

[wapitibob]

I figured the thread would turn once the bullets hit the paper.

 

[Rorschach]

***Update: went to the range again today to basically repeat the same procedure as last time and see if results were different/similar, and to what degree. I did experiment with different rifle support methods with the last two groups.

Rifle: Kimber Montana 308win (Feb. 2016 date of manufacture)

Conditions: Overcast, 48-50degF, no wind.

Procedure:

As last time, targets were set at 100yds. Shot nine 3-shot groups of various types of ammunition. Allowed rifle to cool in a muzzle-up position with the bolt fully to the rear for ~7min between each string of three shots.

An attempt was made to shoot the ammo in the reverse order as from the first running of the experiment. I didn't have my field notes with me from last time, so I was going from memory as to what order the first run was performed in; didn't quite get there.

All were shot with a front bean bag rest and the butt stock only supported by hand against the shoulder, except the last group (Federal Fusion, 150gr), which was shot with the support hand firmly holding onto the front portion of the stock near the sling swivel.​

Types of ammo (all 308win), in order they were fired:

- 1) Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X 178gr
- 2) Hornady Superformance SST 150gr
*** adjusted scope left 2moa since all groups were left of center
- 3) Hornady Full Boar 165gr
- 4) Remington Hog Hammer 168gr
- 5) Federal Fusion 165gr
*** adjusted scope left 1moa
- 6) Federal Fusion 180gr
- 7) Federal Fusion 150gr (group #1)
*** changed position to bipod-supported vs. resting on front bag
- 8) Federal Fusion 150gr (same lot as above, group #2)
*** removed bipod and altered position to using support hand to hold foregrip
- 9) Federal Fusion 150gr (same lot as above, group #3)​

Observations:

Federal Fusion 180gr choked on several attempts of feeding the first of three from the magazine when trying to ease it into the chamber, but went in with more forceful bolt manipulation.

Because I only had enough daylight to print one group (the last group of three 150gr Fusions) while holding the foregrip manually (hand between bean bag and front of stock) I can draw no solid conclusion as to the effect of this technique.

The shots all felt solid, and before the trigger breaking for each shot, the crosshairs were moving over an extreme spread of 0.5" at most.​

Links to other range sessions:
Kimber 1 (1/27/17)
Kimber 2 (1/29/17)
Kimber 3 (1/31/17)
Tikka 1 (2/4/17)
Tikka 2 (2/6/17)
Tikka 3 (2/8/17)
Kimber 4 (2/9/17)
Kimber 5 (2/14/17)

Top Target:

Bottom Target:

 

[jjrgr21]

the tikka is butter smooth, and they shoot well. the savage is not in the same class of rifle.

i have a few 308's, and i'd get an 06 over a 308. but i personally prefer the 6.5's, specifically the 260.

a 308 is easily outperformed

my CTR is 10.5# fully kitted with bipods and all. it's a sub.5moa gun with handloads.