Kids rifle manifesto

[deer_hunter132]

243_2_55

there isnt any real light data there it seems for .243w; ive used imr4198 in a 7RM with 120gr & 139gr pills and it worked great for reduced loads.
at 100gr pills for .243 there is quite a few options

243_2_100

Varget From 30.0 grains to 34.5 grains, i mean thats not a ton of powder.

 

[beerbucksducks]

Thanks! From what I’m seeing and what I have on hand, looks like 70-85 grain with 4064 or varget might be a good place for lower powder charge and lighter bullets.


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[deer_hunter132]

Thanks! From what I’m seeing and what I have on hand, looks like 70-85 grain with 4064 or varget might be a good place for lower powder charge and lighter bullets.


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give it a shot and see. theres a balancing act with case fill vs powder burn rate. too slow of a burn rate with too low of a case fill and you get S.E.E. (secondary explosion event) and its a bomb, literally. I would try to stay 70%+ case fill regardless of "rifle" powder. pistol powder is going to have a low fill % and thats ok; mostly. the biggest issue is where the powder column is located (point rifle up or down first) and powder shifts in the case alot, which causes wide FPS variations, typically. not always ideal. things can get spicy quick with the fast burn powder too so being extra cautious when loading is necessary. Personally i can tell the difference in a 6 dasher vs a .243w with the same bullet, but 200fps less when shooting them back to back. thats the difference of 32-35gr of powder varget/4350 vs the 42gr range of 4350 type powder. close to the same weight gun too.

 

[Flatland]

I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here.

My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now, and a bunch of their friends that I have been involved or around as they learn to shoot. probably 20-ish kids? Here's what I've learned in the last 5-6 years.

Recoil matters, a lot. "Handles it pretty well" is way way different from "ideal for building skills as a rifleman." My oldest loves to shoot, wasn't scared of 7mm-08 recoil, but it pushed him around a lot more than I realized at the time. He definitely started to anticipate the shot breaking, even when we played the "dad loads the rifle and puts dummies in there" game pretty regularly.

The common "6.5CM/.260/7mm-08 is a great kids' gun" view is a bad one in my opinion. A 120-140 grain bullet going 2700+ FPS over 42-44 grains of powder is going to have recoil energy in the mid teens at least. 15 ft-lb for a 100lb kid is proportionally like an 8 lb .300WM for a 200lb man (~30 ft-lb recoil). A .243 is around 10-12 ft-lb, and a .223 is 5 or 6 ft-lb. Please realize, your kid gets pushed twice as hard as you do by the rifle. A .243 rocks your kid about like a .30-06 hits you, from a physics lens.

The effect that that recoil has on them is greater also (typically). Think about the snap of a rubber band. It does not scale with body weight, from a physics perspective, it affects you and your kid equally. But a snap that is hard enough to just begin to disrupt your focus and concentration is going to be much more disruptive to the focus and concentration of a child.

A brake is not the answer. Permanent hearing damage will occur, and flinching will not be cured. Several of my friends now have kids with braked 6.5CM's or larger. They anticipate the blast and don't shoot better because of the brake. Double hearing protection is a must at the range and should be done in the field but no one does. In the field, adding ear pro to the shot process is not something I am interested in doing. If you're in a box blind, a pair of electronic muffs are great and while not truly hearing safe are probably fine for a shot or two. The problems I've found are making sure everyone present has them in/on before the shot and the difficulty in quiet communication if not everyone has electronics. The process of teaching a kid to focus and stay composed is enough of a challenge without adding those factors. Carrying electronic muffs sucks in the backcountry/mountains, but I realize that's less of an issue for a lot of folks.

Suppressors are a game changer. Reducing recoil and report/blast has a huge positive impact on letting kids learn to focus on the fundamentals and not tense up in anticipation of the explosion that's about to happen 6 inches from their face. Do it if you can.

With nearly perfect correlation, I see two trends.
1) people who recommend a .308 size cartridge or larger (to include 6.5CM, 7mm-08, etc), often with reduced recoil ammo, have not taught very many kids to shoot. It "worked for them" or their kid "handled it fine". That was me with my oldest. We started him with a 7mm-08 for "his first deer rifle" on the conventional wisdom that it was a great kids' cartridge that he could grow into.

2) people who have taught lots of kids to shoot always recommend the very bottom end of the recoil spectrum. .223, 6mm ARC, MAYBE 6CM/.243 with a suppressor (especially if we're talking about teens rather than 10 yr olds). I very seldom see someone who's been really actively engaged in helping more than a handful of kids become good riflemen recommend 6.5CM or larger for a kids' rifle (and the only ones that do are ones who have never tried .223 or small 6mm with good bullets).

The T3x compact .223 is THE young kid's rifle. Second place is the Howa Mini in 6mm ARC (especially if suppressed). Both are cheap to feed and easy to load for, recoil is very low, and they will kill anything that walks in North America out to 400+ yards with the correct bullet selection (see .223 thread and 6mm thread). I've seen consistently better kills with the 77 TMK and 108 ELDM than I ever did with 120 NBT's out of my son's 7mm-08.

To recap, I 100% believe thad no preteen or early teen child is going to have an optimal learning setup with a rifle that runs more than 150 grains combined bullet and powder weight, and if we are approaching that it should 100% be suppressed. 100 to 125 grains combined weight is far preferable, and the difference is not debatable to anyone I know who has tried both ways.

The difference between a kid watching an impact on steel in the scope and telling Dad, "hit!" before hearing the impact, vs asking Dad whether he hit or not is such a big difference, it really is almost two different activities.

Edit to add: Please feel free to add your experiences of teaching kids to shoot. My hope would be that we could get multiple people who have taught lots of kids and seen trends and patterns, vs what I had when I was starting out (not enough different things tried to draw conclusions about what works better or worse). I think a thread that draws a lot of these experiences together could be a great starting point for folks looking to teach their kids.

Great information

 

[AkRyan]

Great information

Other than recommending a 223 or 6arc to kill anything. Those cartridges require great accuracy when shooting large game and that comes with time behind a rifle.

 

[270-300]

Im hoping to buy one of the $300 ruger rimfire suppressors soon for my 17hmr bolt action that is threaded.
Then the kids can learn to shoot precisely for a couple hundred yards at the range, and shoot some long shots rabbit hunting before moving to antelope.

 

[Formidilosus]

Other than recommending a 223 or 6arc to kill anything. Those cartridges require great accuracy when shooting large game and that comes with time behind a rifle.

Probably better to speak on what you actually know from long personal experience, rather than theorize about what you don’t know.

 

[Marbles]

Other than recommending a 223 or 6arc to kill anything. Those cartridges require great accuracy when shooting large game and that comes with time behind a rifle.

My 223 with 77 TMKs requires no better shot placement than my prior 30-06 pushing 180 accubonds. Both have to hit vitals to kill. Both bust bones and destroy organs on the other side.

A kid needs to know how to hit vitals and have proven to be capable of that level of precision with the given equipment at the range in question under field conditions before taking a shot qt game. Adults should do the same.

 

[eric1115]

Other than recommending a 223 or 6arc to kill anything. Those cartridges require great accuracy when shooting large game and that comes with time behind a rifle.

Out of curiosity, how many big game kills do you have with 77TMK and 108ELDM/103ELDX/95TMK's?

 

[WestMOhunter]

Other than recommending a 223 or 6arc to kill anything. Those cartridges require great accuracy when shooting large game and that comes with time behind a rifle.

The irony of this comment is that .223, 6 ARC, etc. are perfect examples of cartridges that allow a kid a lot of time behind a rifle, which promotes accuracy.

Not jumping in to the “not big enough” cartridge discussion. But I watched two deer drop in 2 days shot by a 7 yr old w/ a 73 ELDM from a suppressed AR. They were the same amount of dead as what I shot with 168 ABLR going 2925.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

Kid rifle in photo is a Tikka factory barreled action in 223 Rem. From butt to crown, total length is 30" with the adjustable stock collapsed to 11" LOP. Barrel length is 17" with 5/8x24 muzzle thread w/shoulder.

Shoots 10 under .5 and feeds like a dream.

Kids seem to get dangerous faster with a compact chassis that scales for them.

 

[Flatland]

Kid rifle in photo is a Tikka factory barreled action in 223 Rem. From butt to crown, total length is 30" with the adjustable stock collapsed to 11" LOP. Barrel length is 17" with 5/8x24 muzzle thread w/shoulder.

Shoots 10 under .5 and feeds like a dream.

Kids seem to get dangerous faster with a compact chassis that scales for them.

View attachment 1022169

That looks really nice, did you make it yourself or do you care to say who makes the stock?

 

[TheM1DoesMyTalking]

Kid rifle in photo is a Tikka factory barreled action in 223 Rem. From butt to crown, total length is 30" with the adjustable stock collapsed to 11" LOP. Barrel length is 17" with 5/8x24 muzzle thread w/shoulder.

Shoots 10 under .5 and feeds like a dream.

Kids seem to get dangerous faster with a compact chassis that scales for them.

View attachment 1022169

How much does this setup weigh? Looks like the chassis is an MDT The Worker LSS?

11" LOP is about right for some of my kids right now. Is the trigger reach a struggle for yours at all? It looks like it could be a bit of a stretch for small hands.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

Hi M1 and Flatland

Here's a summary of parts/considerations/responses:

• Have done the 700 clone way (Krieger 7 twist, long throat, spendy) and the Tikka way (8 twist, factory chamber length) - both are excellent, Tikka costs a lot less
• Tikka started as a Compact for $659, then able to net $140 after selling the stock
• Cut the barrel from 20 to 17 inches, thread 5/8x24 w/shoulder (ADCO in Ohio)
• Chassis is LSS Gen 3 w/interface for carbine tube
• Adds are thumb shelf, MDT M-lok poly bipod (great for this set up!), MDT grip
• Cerakote air cure paint on metal
• Buttstock is Magpul CTR because it locks secure (no wiggle or rattle) and can add comb risers
• 11" LOP is very short - in my head might say that if a kid is less than 11" LOP, then too young/little to be shooting a centerfire
• Sportsmatch medium rings
• 6X super sniper is best of eye box/reticle/FOV + any brain adapts very easily, eliminates zoom in/out variable
• No bedding needed so chassis and barreled action are all interchangeable
• Total weight of set up is #8 - kids will shoot #8 better and more confident/less fear aversion than #6 while able to carry

Note that this all just something I arrived at after years of shooting with my kids/friends' kids. Going the Tikka factory route is a bit smarter. Only thing I'd change would be in favor of Tikka stainless barrel (if were offered).

Hope this helps!

 

[eric1115]

Hi M1 and Flatland

Here's a summary of parts/considerations/responses:

• Have done the 700 clone way (Krieger 7 twist, long throat, spendy) and the Tikka way (8 twist, factory chamber length) - both are excellent, Tikka costs a lot less
• Tikka started as a Compact for $659, then able to net $140 after selling the stock
• Cut the barrel from 20 to 17 inches, thread 5/8x24 w/shoulder (ADCO in Ohio)
• Chassis is LSS Gen 3 w/interface for carbine tube
• Adds are thumb shelf, MDT M-lok poly bipod (great for this set up!), MDT grip
• Cerakote air cure paint on metal
• Buttstock is Magpul CTR because it locks secure (no wiggle or rattle) and can add comb risers
• 11" LOP is very short - in my head might say that if a kid is less than 11" LOP, then too young/little to be shooting a centerfire
• Sportsmatch medium rings
• 6X super sniper is best of eye box/reticle/FOV + any brain adapts very easily, eliminates zoom in/out variable
• No bedding needed so chassis and barreled action are all interchangeable
• Total weight of set up is #8 - kids will shoot #8 better and more confident/less fear aversion than #6 while able to carry

Note that this all just something I arrived at after years of shooting with my kids/friends' kids. Going the Tikka factory route is a bit smarter. Only thing I'd change would be in favor of Tikka stainless barrel (if were offered).

Hope this helps!

How does this setup do with trigger reach? I looked at one point at a Howa Mini that came from the factory in (I think) an LSS chassis and the trigger reach was super long with no great way I could see to shorten. I've taken to building up a vertical grip on sporter stocks with epoxy putty. It lets me achieve a shorter trigger reach than I've been able to get with a factory stock or chassis that I've found (except the Rokstok).

 

[Hill Difficulty]

How does this setup do with trigger reach? I looked at one point at a Howa Mini that came from the factory in (I think) an LSS chassis and the trigger reach was super long with no great way I could see to shorten. I've taken to building up a vertical grip on sporter stocks with epoxy putty. It lets me achieve a shorter trigger reach than I've been able to get with a factory stock or chassis that I've found (except the Rokstok).

Length of pull using the collapsible CTR stock is 11 inches compared to most youth stocks at a 12 inch LOP.

11" LOP is very short.

 

[eric1115]

Length of pull using the collapsible CTR stock is 11 inches compared to most youth stocks at a 12 inch LOP.

11" LOP is very short.

I'm not talking LOP. From the front of the grip to the face of the trigger is a very important measurement (especially for little hands). Most stocks are too far and kids end up having closer to 180deg in their index finger joint vs the 90deg ideal bend. Or having to scoot their hand way forward and not being able to actually grip the stock. Either way most stocks don't set a kid up for a good trigger press without modification.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

I'm not talking LOP. From the front of the grip to the face of the trigger is a very important measurement (especially for little hands). Most stocks are too far and kids end up having closer to 180deg in their index finger joint vs the 90deg ideal bend. Or having to scoot their hand way forward and not being able to actually grip the stock. Either way most stocks don't set a kid up for a good trigger press without modification.

I have a MKM adaptive grip with an integrated thumb shelf on my other kid chassis. The front of the MKM grip allows the trigger hand fingers to rest vertically behind the trigger guard. Check that out and let me know if it helps answer your question.

 

[Escalante11]

For what it's worth, the RokStok Lite seems to fit my 8 year old surprisingly well while playing around with it here at the house. I was surprised to see how well everything lined up for her, both prone and standing on a tripod. The negative comb seem to result in less fighting to find the reticle, while the grip and trigger reach seem to be conducive to her smaller hands.

That may change once we get her to the range but as of now, she looks more comfortable behind it than she does with the shorter Tikka 'Compact' stock (despite what the LOP may suggest).

 

[eric1115]

I have a MKM adaptive grip with an integrated thumb shelf on my other kid chassis. The front of the MKM grip allows the trigger hand fingers to rest vertically behind the trigger guard. Check that out and let me know if it helps answer your question.

That does look like a better option than most. Looking a little closer, I think it was actually the EXCL Lite chassis that mini was in from the factory, I haven't handled the LSS so I can't speak to it.

It was definitely made much more difficult by gripping with the thumb around the back (obviously). Neutral thumb is my preference (up toward centerline of the action with a more traditional stock) vs thumb shelf on the side, but with a pistol grip it's kind of the only option for small handed kids. Definitely makes low recoil even more important, and also less ideal for offhand/unsupported (in my experience).

We started with a thumb shelf on this mini for the kids (in addition to the built up vert grip) but have gone away from using it. I'll probably grind the shelf off at some point, do a little more putty build up to further shorten the trigger reach, and touch up/repaint. Huge improvement from where it started though.

Please don't take this as me throwing rocks at your setup... I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about and working on getting rifles set up for kids and have always liked the adjustability of chassis. Cheek risers, LOP adjustment, etc are really appealing but I've struggled to get trigger reach figured out with them. Was curious to see how you addressed it and it looks like you've got a sweet setup!