Kids rifle manifesto

[Timberline001]

There’s also the Howa mini in 6 ARC for an off the shelf option.

 

[Robobiss]

Well, I dont have experience building guns or handloading and likely dont have the time in my life right now for developing loads etc, but some of these calibers might be available in a factory compact gun I can consider...

Kid eats great, but both my kids follow my wife's growth curve not mine - they have been stable at about the 10th percentile their whole lives...

And I guess I am convinced I need to save up to get on the suppressor train.... and to find a gunsmith to thread a barrel if it doesn't come that way - It all adds up to more than just buying a cheap Savage... But hopefully a better experience than I had.

When I got into hunting in 2016 as a 40 something multiple people told me I needed at least a 30-06 for elk and I wouldn't be allowed in camp with them with a .270 etc... So I have a bit of a flinch myself and don't love shooting that thing (but it does kill everything I point it at, so my flinch doesnt impact me much in the field). I am convinced I can get by with something much smaller myself and suppressed and enjoy it enough to shoot much more... Ideally we will share it with adjustable LOP etc...

Even a suppressor on your 30-06 would make a definite and noticeable improvement in my opinion in regards to felt recoil. Way more shootable with vs without.

 

[eric1115]

Wow, thanks for posting all this info! I was looking at a 6.5CM for my kiddo, but now think I'll pass.. Heck he is 65Lbs and turns 12 in April so he can start hunting in CO... but with that weight I might need to just stick to .22LR and start him with small game - although my luck finding squirrel spots has been pretty poor so that is a separate challenge. But sounds like 6CM/.243/6ARC might still be too much for a 65lbs kid and I should hold off rather than have him afraid of the recoil and developing bad habits by starting too early for him....

My advice, given your legal restrictions, is a Howa mini in 6mm ARC with a suppressor is your most cost effective, most headache free solution for whenever he is big enough, whether that's now or in a year or two. Factory threaded barrel available, and easy enough cheap mods to greatly improve fit and function if you're moderately handy.

A Tikka with a 6mmARC prefit and getting a .223 bolt face milled out would be better, but probably twice the money and I'd rather shoot a suppressed Howa than a bare muzzle Tikka.

The ARC is noticeably lower recoil than a 6CM/.243. with a good suppressor, it's approaching bare muzzle .223 shootability.

 

[CoMtnMike]

OK, complete noob wrt suppressors... my quick look seems not to turn up 6mm suppressors and 6.5mm suppressors but just 30cal rated for .243 to .308 - is that normal? Or is it caliber sized/tuned when you actually place an order? Of course if the .308 can still efficiently reduces noise, recoil, jump on a .243 then that would be cool because I could use it on my .30-06 in addition to a 6mm with just a threading of the barrel... Assuming I still want to use it for hunting once I have a smaller caliber low recoil option... And I am a ways off from getting one, as I would need to decide on the gun and caliber first, then paperwork then deciding on make/model of suppressor which I am sure is its own rabbit hole for analysis paralysis! But at a high level - would one suppressor work for multiple hunting calibers assuming the same thread pattern?

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Buy a 30 cal can with 5/8x24 threads. Shoot any 30 cal or smaller centerfire through it without issues.

 

[eric1115]

OK, complete noob wrt suppressors... my quick look seems not to turn up 6mm suppressors and 6.5mm suppressors but just 30cal rated for .243 to .308 - is that normal? Or is it caliber sized/tuned when you actually place an order? Of course if the .308 can still efficiently reduces noise, recoil, jump on a .243 then that would be cool because I could use it on my .30-06 in addition to a 6mm with just a threading of the barrel... Assuming I still want to use it for hunting once I have a smaller caliber low recoil option... And I am a ways off from getting one, as I would need to decide on the gun and caliber first, then paperwork then deciding on make/model of suppressor which I am sure is its own rabbit hole for analysis paralysis! But at a high level - would one suppressor work for multiple hunting calibers assuming the same thread pattern?

Zero worries putting a .30 cal suppressor on a .223, 6mm, or .30 cal rifle. I do it regularly. There are a small handful of 6mm specific cans, but the vast majority of us use .30 cal cans for a variety of smaller calibers.

I've had excellent luck with AB suppressors, the Raptor titanium cans are excellent performers for low weight. Their A-10 steel cans are still reasonable weight, lower cost, and solid performers by all accounts. A .30 cal A-10 is likely my next suppressor, to reduce the amount of swapping around I need to do.

Diligent Defense and Otter Creek also have solid budget options. Whatever you get, ⅝x24 direct thread is going to be the most common and versatile thread pattern. Adapters or collars are easy enough for any decent gunsmith if your barrel is too thin to thread that size.

 

[CoMtnMike]

Zero worries putting a .30 cal suppressor on a .223, 6mm, or .30 cal rifle. I do it regularly. There are a small handful of 6mm specific cans, but the vast majority of us use .30 cal cans for a variety of smaller calibers.

I've had excellent luck with AB suppressors, the Raptor titanium cans are excellent performers for low weight. Their A-10 steel cans are still reasonable weight, lower cost, and solid performers by all accounts. A .30 cal A-10 is likely my next suppressor, to reduce the amount of swapping around I need to do.

Diligent Defense and Otter Creek also have solid budget options. Whatever you get, ⅝x24 direct thread is going to be the most common and versatile thread pattern. Adapters or collars are easy enough for any decent gunsmith if your barrel is too thin to thread that size.

thank you, just wanted to be sure i wasnt missing something! and if I can get one for multiple rifles to be more shootable then it becomes a more reasonable expense...

 

[Southern Lights]

I agree with the recommendation for a .223 for a first centerfire, and the Tikka Compact suppressed if you can swing it. My kids are hitting steel easily with that setup at 2-300 yards already and love it. Low recoil and accurate.

For kids I'd also be aware of lead exposure as it has a worse effect on them. Much lead exposure comes from the primer residue in fired cases (primers contain lead styphnate). I would limit letting children handle fired cases and teach them to wash their hands after handling firearms. I'd also use firearms under good ventilation and let them know to keep their hands out of their mouths and not to eat until their hands are washed, etc.

I'll let my children load a rifle, but I generally do not let them pick up spent cases and let me do it instead.

 

[CoMtnMike]

I agree with the recommendation for a .223 for a first centerfire, and the Tikka Compact suppressed if you can swing it. My kids are hitting steel easily with that setup at 2-300 yards already and love it. Low recoil and accurate.

For kids I'd also be aware of lead exposure as it has a worse effect on them. Much lead exposure comes from the primer residue in fired cases (primers contain lead styphnate). I would limit letting children handle fired cases and teach them to wash their hands after handling firearms. I'd also use firearms under good ventilation and let them know to keep their hands out of their mouths and not to eat until their hands are washed, etc.

I'll let my children load a rifle, but I generally do not let them pick up spent cases and let me do it instead.

oh, thats a good thing to know as well, never would have crossed my mind. Only shooting outdoors really with him, public ranges indoors or out can be a roll of the dice for teaching kids - controlling the recoil and the sound they experience only works if there isnt a braked magnum nearby - so I have tended toward BLM / nat forest for now with the .22... even though that limits opportunities since those areas are a bit of a drive from Denver metro...

And I only hunt with copper for that reason as well - which complicates some of the recommended unique calibers since I dont reload etc. Ideally need a couple of factory copper options in the caliber to find one that shoots really well...

 

[eric1115]

oh, thats a good thing to know as well, never would have crossed my mind. Only shooting outdoors really with him, public ranges indoors or out can be a roll of the dice for teaching kids - controlling the recoil and the sound they experience only works if there isnt a braked magnum nearby - so I have tended toward BLM / nat forest for now with the .22... even though that limits opportunities since those areas are a bit of a drive from Denver metro...

And I only hunt with copper for that reason as well - which complicates some of the recommended unique calibers since I dont reload etc. Ideally need a couple of factory copper options in the caliber to find one that shoots really well...

I am particular with my kids when I'm reloading, but everything objective I'm able to find suggests that the risk from ingestion of lead particles from bullet fragments is extremely low.

I just started this today, and already there are a few documents that I had not seen before but are super good info.

Lead ingestion health risks

There are countless lead vs mono preference threads. That is not what I'm looking for here. I've spent some time looking at lead studies. It's really easy to find the radiograph pictures of lead fragments in a chest cavity, and the studies where deer were dropped off at processors with the...

rokslide.com

 

[CoMtnMike]

Sorry, I didnt mean to drag the lead/copper discussion into this excellent thread on youth rifle considerations as it is fully covered elsewhere. The only relevance I intended to impart was that since I have made that decision for me it complicates my caliber option considerations. While fully available for more popular hunting cartridges it is much less common in 6CM (3 at sportsmans vs 6 for the 6.5CM) and none for the recommended youth cartridge 6ARC. Not changing my mind on copper and not trying to change anyone else's.

I think the takeaway for me is that I will start him off with squirrel and rabbit with the .22lr this year, maybe find a .223 for training (cant hunt with it here) and then when he is ready look at .243 or 6CM for hunting. And get a suppressor for the centerfire options...

 

[goathunter]

I've been digging through these threads. I haven't read this whole thread, it's a lot. I really don't want to wade into the caliber discussions. But I have a 10 year old and need to put together his first rifle to hunt mule deer with at 10 and 11. Ideally this will be his ELK rifle in 2 years at 12. He won't be hunting Elk with a .223. Sorry, I'm not going to do it and don't want to justify it so let's just strike .223 from the mix. He's left eye dominant. I was going to go 7mm-08, 6.5CM, or possibly 243. These other 6mms have me interested though.
A few things I think about -

It will be suppressed. I suppressed my 300 WSM and it made a HUGE difference in recoil. It's a completely different gun.

It's often generically said that a 6.5CM has much more recoil than a 243, but that is generally comparing 90-100gr 243 bullets to 140 gr class 6.5cm bullets. These cases have about the same powder capacity. Why wouldn't a down-loaded 6.5CM shooting 100 gr bullets be just as good as a 243? With way more room to expand as he grows? I can't imagine a suppressed 6.5 creedmoor shooting 100 gr bullets 2400-2500 fps wouldn't be a baby, but I haven't personally done this.

I really want to pick up a compact lefthand factory rifle. I don't want to do much more than chop and thread as far as custom goes.

All that said would appreciate thoughts on my thoughts above, and suggestions on a youth's first hunting rifle!

 

[eric1115]

I've been digging through these threads. I haven't read this whole thread, it's a lot. I really don't want to wade into the caliber discussions. But I have a 10 year old and need to put together his first rifle to hunt mule deer with at 10 and 11. Ideally this will be his ELK rifle in 2 years at 12. He won't be hunting Elk with a .223. Sorry, I'm not going to do it and don't want to justify it so let's just strike .223 from the mix. He's left eye dominant. I was going to go 7mm-08, 6.5CM, or possibly 243. These other 6mms have me interested though.
A few things I think about -

It will be suppressed. I suppressed my 300 WSM and it made a HUGE difference in recoil. It's a completely different gun.

It's often generically said that a 6.5CM has much more recoil than a 243, but that is generally comparing 90-100gr 243 bullets to 140 gr class 6.5cm bullets. These cases have about the same powder capacity. Why wouldn't a down-loaded 6.5CM shooting 100 gr bullets be just as good as a 243? With way more room to expand as he grows? I can't imagine a suppressed 6.5 creedmoor shooting 100 gr bullets 2400-2500 fps wouldn't be a baby, but I haven't personally done this.

I really want to pick up a compact lefthand factory rifle. I don't want to do much more than chop and thread as far as custom goes.

All that said would appreciate thoughts on my thoughts above, and suggestions on a youth's first hunting rifle!

You're not wrong that 100 grains of bullet weight at 2500 fps doesn't much care whether it's coming out of a 6mmARC or a light 6.5CM load.

However, I would suggest that a 108 ELDM will dramatically outperform a 100 grains 6.5 of any construction in terminal performance, and for sure in terms of drop/drift/retained velocity (caveat: I have never personally used 100 grain 6.5 bullets on game, but slow, light for caliber bullets have never impressed me).

I get the impression you hand load?

I would certainly prefer moderate velocity .243 loads with good, heavy for caliber bullets, and I see zero reason not to use a light-ish load 108 ELDM .243.

Dark horse, you said no .223 but what about a .22-250 and loading 88 ELDM's? Less recoil, more bullet weight and velocity than any of the 6mm and larger options. Go check out the 22 Creedmoor thread, it's full of pics of big dead critters and very happy shooters. It's a slightly bigger brother ballistically to a .22-250 if you're using those same 80+ grain bullets.

 

[goathunter]

You're not wrong that 100 grains of bullet weight at 2500 fps doesn't much care whether it's coming out of a 6mmARC or a light 6.5CM load.

However, I would suggest that a 108 ELDM will dramatically outperform a 100 grains 6.5 of any construction in terminal performance, and for sure in terms of drop/drift/retained velocity (caveat: I have never personally used 100 grain 6.5 bullets on game, but slow, light for caliber bullets have never impressed me).

I get the impression you hand load?

I would certainly prefer moderate velocity .243 loads with good, heavy for caliber bullets, and I see zero reason not to use a light-ish load 108 ELDM .243.

Dark horse, you said no .223 but what about a .22-250 and loading 88 ELDM's? Less recoil, more bullet weight and velocity than any of the 6mm and larger options. Go check out the 22 Creedmoor thread, it's full of pics of big dead critters and very happy shooters. It's a slightly bigger brother ballistically to a .22-250 if you're using those same 80+ grain bullets.

Yes I handload. And when I said 100gr I just generally meant "around 100" so yes I'd include 108 in that group. Re 243 -108 - I'm assuming this needs an 1:8 twist. Here is where I have issues finding a left-hand compact factor rifle. 9.25 twists seem more common.
Re 22-250 - I should have said - no 22 caliber... not just .223. I would consider it for mule deer, but I would rather just buy one gun in the next couple years.

 

[eric1115]

Yes I handload. And when I said 100gr I just generally meant "around 100" so yes I'd include 108 in that group. Re 243 -108 - I'm assuming this needs an 1:8 twist. Here is where I have issues finding a left-hand compact factor rifle. 9.25 twists seem more common.
Re 22-250 - I should have said - no 22 caliber... not just .223. I would consider it for mule deer, but I would rather just buy one gun in the next couple years.

Lefty compacts are tough... Tikka 8 twist .243 is available Lefty or compact, but not both combined as far as I know.

I've had good luck cutting factory stocks down; I'd imagine any gunsmith could do it for minimal expense when he's cutting and threading the barrel if you didn't want to do it yourself.

Lastly, I'll make one more pass and then leave it alone. You owe it to yourself and your kid to make a fully informed decision. Go look at photos of moose killed with heavy .22 cal bullets. They're not limiting or marginal on big game.