Joseph von Benedikt vs Formidilosus

[Reburn]

I don't think it's even that popular now. Outside this forum, I've never met a person that would consider such a thing. I think the days of mega magnums, knock down power and pie plate at 100y accuracy are still very alive and well.

In the south there are a ton of 22-250. Lots of whitetail die to 22 cal bullets. I know more people that use them vs those that use 30 cals.

 

[satchamo]

Mixing Joseph’s voice with the monotone distortion of Forms? You would need a week to get through an hour due to the unintentional naps you would take every 30 seconds.

My thoughts exactly. It’s like listening to AI talk to AI

 

[wind gypsy]

In his appearances on Exo's Hunt Backcountry podcast (probably my other favorite), Form speaks compellingly about the near total lack of evidence for shoulders stopping match bullets like the ELDM. Then I go on my 7PRC forums. For every 10 successful ELD posts I read I'll see one like this that gives me pause and keeps me reaching for Barnes LRX.

View attachment 786073

Curious how a bullet stopped in the shoulder but yet a bull stayed put? Does not compute. Must have damaged spine or got through the shoulder to keep the bull where it was. A bull can go a long ways on 1 shoulder.

175 ELDx are violent, that is true! A little more so than ideal for me.

 

[Benaiah]

Just listened to Form for the first time today. It was great info. A conversation between him and JVB would be great!

 

[Jmort1754]

Curious how a bullet stopped in the shoulder but yet a bull stayed put? Does not compute. Must have damaged spine or got through the shoulder to keep the bull where it was. A bull can go a long ways on 1 shoulder.

175 ELDx are violent, that is true! A little more so than ideal for me.

I shot a whitetail with an explosive bullet a few years ago, 264 win mag 140 accubomb, destroyed the onside shoulder, never when in to the body cavity, he dropped then just stayed there, shot him again in the base of the skull.

I say this because I think it problem has something to do with the shock the CNS when getting hit like that.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Someone please define “Fudd”, then give a specific example of what makes JVB a Fudd.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Someone please define “Fudd”, then give a specific example of what makes JVB a Fudd.

I googled "fudd meme"....it would appear this is the archetype...



Based off the memes, it might be mumbling about 30-06, .45acp, two world wars, and knockdown power. But that's just gathered off a quick search.

I do not know anything about this JVB individual and haven't listened to his podcast.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Someone please define “Fudd”, then give a specific example of what makes JVB a Fudd.

I define it as someone who believes shit kicking magnums are needed to kill deer, energy is the main driver of terminal ballistics and uses terms like knockdown power, wallop, and authority, and regurgitates traditional hunting folklore like 5 shot groups are plenty, Leupold is the gold standard, and you absolutely have to clean your barrel if you want it to last and not blow up.

I won't give JVB clicks so I've never listened to him, but I know him and Ron Spomer are butt buddies, and I've heard a few of his clips. They go something like this-

"So is this here fancy 6.8 Western really that much better than the good ol trusty 270 Win? Well, maybe not." *proceeds to make a bunch of apples to oranges comparisons with a max range of 400 yards*

Yeah Ron, it is. It's a factory offering with an 8 twist that will stabilize anything you can load in that 270, but also 175 with a way higher BC that's terminally effective farther than you should be shooting.

 

[RockAndSage]

Someone please define “Fudd”, then give a specific example of what makes JVB a Fudd.

At its core, a Fudd essentially gathers inherited "wisdom" from the gun and hunting culture, and holds onto it like the word of God, without questioning it or verifying it with data - and tends to confront or attack anyone running counter to it like a zealot going after a heretical apostate. Because they know.

And - they wrap that "knowledge" around themselves like the mantle of a saint, making themselves impervious to new knowledge that runs counter to what they know.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I googled "fudd meme"....it would appear this is the archetype...

View attachment 815998

Based off the memes, it might be mumbling about 30-06, .45acp, two world wars, and knockdown power. But that's just gathered off a quick search.

I do not know anything about this JVB individual and haven't listened to his podcast.

I define it as someone who believes shit kicking magnums are needed to kill deer, energy is the main driver of terminal ballistics and uses terms like knockdown power, wallop, and authority, and regurgitates traditional hunting folklore like 5 shot groups are plenty, Leupold is the gold standard, and you absolutely have to clean your barrel if you want it to last and not blow up.

I won't give JVB clicks so I've never listened to him, but I know him and Ron Spomer are butt buddies, and I've heard a few of his clips. They go something like this-

"So is this here fancy 6.8 Western really that much better than the good ol trusty 270 Win? Well, maybe not." *proceeds to make a bunch of apples to oranges comparisons with a max range of 400 yards*

Yeah Ron, it is. It's a factory offering with an 8 twist that will stabilize anything you can load in that 270, but also 175 with a way higher BC that's terminally effective farther than you should be shooting.

^^ Let’s skip the homophobic remarks. ^^

At its core, a Fudd essentially gathers inherited "wisdom" from the gun and hunting culture, and holds onto it like the word of God, without questioning it or verifying it with data - and tends to confront or attack anyone running counter to it like a zealot going after a heretical apostate. Because they know.

And - they wrap that "knowledge" around themselves like the mantle of a saint, making themselves impervious to new knowledge that runs counter to what they know.

This sounds like very similar attitudes to those being ascribed to “Fudds”, that is… “You don’t see it my way, so you are ignorant”.

.45 ACP and 1911? Yes please. But this is not the end of the list by any stretch.

30-06, yes please. I love my M1 Garand, but I definitely wouldn’t take it elk hunting. My 30-06 Tikka is better ;-) If I’m going to pack a heavy rifle, I’ll take the .338 RUM.

6.8 Western? I’d love one, but I’m not in the market for another elk rifle. I’ve actually listened to a JVB podcast where he was talking very positively about this particular cartridge. I don’t listen to him much, but I have, and the derision seems a little silly.

Why aren’t 5 shot groups enough for a big game rifle? I can see why it matters on a varmint rifle, I hardly see the advantage on an elk rifle. That being said, do what you like.

The above might make me a partial Fudd, but more importantly, you do what works for you. Let’s not start labeling each other.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

While a debate sounds entertaining, listening to J Van Bullshit’s fake deep voice debate with Form’s Black Ops digitally altered voice would be a nightmare.

 

[Harvey_NW]

This sounds like very similar attitudes to those being ascribed to “Fudds”, that is… “You don’t see it my way, so you are ignorant”.

It's not a matter of opinion, it is fact. The 270 Win cannot do what the 6.8 Western does. That goes with all other traditional designs compared to modern optimized. Same as my '73 Ford doesn't have the same comfort or power as my '16.

Why aren’t 5 shot groups enough for a big game rifle? I can see why it matters on a varmint rifle, I hardly see the advantage on an elk rifle. That being said, do what you like.

Statistical validity when it comes to measuring precision. Too much variability in 5 shot groups. If you don't intend to shoot longer distances, it likely won't matter.

The above might make me a partial Fudd, but more importantly, you do what works for you. Let’s not start labeling each other.

I don't think so, because you're not impressing upon anyone that they need to hunt with a 30-06 or 338. I don't care what anyone does, I don't like it when people tell me what they think I need to be doing. Or when they refute evidence like hundreds of pictures of dead deer, elk, moose, bear, and more from 223 bullets.

 

[JBradley500]

JVB takes heat because he acts (literally an act) as the authority of facts regarding hunting and ethics. Half of what he says is just to sell product for his sponsors and the other half is 100 year old hunting folklore that has been disproven over and over.

 

[RockAndSage]

This sounds like very similar attitudes to those being ascribed to “Fudds”, that is… “You don’t see it my way, so you are ignorant”.

.45 ACP and 1911? Yes please. But this is not the end of the list by any stretch.

30-06, yes please. I love my M1 Garand, but I definitely wouldn’t take it elk hunting. My 30-06 Tikka is better ;-) If I’m going to pack a heavy rifle, I’ll take the .338 RUM.

6.8 Western? I’d love one, but I’m not in the market for another elk rifle. I’ve actually listened to a JVB podcast where he was talking very positively about this particular cartridge. I don’t listen to him much, but I have, and the derision seems a little silly.

Why aren’t 5 shot groups enough for a big game rifle? I can see why it matters on a varmint rifle, I hardly see the advantage on an elk rifle. That being said, do what you like.

The above might make me a partial Fudd, but more importantly, you do what works for you. Let’s not start labeling each other.

Fudds on .45s:

Fudd: "I carry a .45 because 2 world wars, they don't make a .46, etc, etc, I don't care what you have to say, because there's no replacement for displacement."

Partial Fudd: "I like a 1911 in .45 because I trust it and I hit with it, but you do you. I know lots of guys who run 9mms and they seem to do just fine with them, but it's not for me."

Former Fudd: "I used to carry a 1911 in .45, but found that when I actually tried a 9mm 2011 I hit better and faster and could carry 3x the ammo in one mag. Win win all the way around."


Fudds on 30-06s:

Fudd: "30-06 because 2 world wars, and if it's good enough for John Garand and John Moses Browning, it's good enough for me. I don't care what "data" you have, sonny. Varmint cartridges for varmints, I'm not going to waste my time trying what I know is dumb and unethical."

Partial Fudd: "I love my 30-06 Tikka, because I hit great with it and just don't see the need to try going down in caliber, but I'm open to the idea of trying something smaller at some point. It's good to hear other guys are having success with smaller cartridges though."

Former Fudd: "I used to love using my 30-06 on everything, but I discovered my first-round hit rate went up quite a bit in the realities of field conditions with smaller cartridges after I actually tried them, and literally saw no difference in killing capability with the smaller cartridges using match bullets once I started trying them. I love my 6mm Creedmoor, and haven't looked back."


See the difference?

Mindset and experience matter.

 

[Wyobohunter]

It's not a matter of opinion, it is fact. The 270 Win cannot do what the 6.8 Western does. That goes with all other traditional designs compared to modern optimized. Same as my '73 Ford doesn't have the same comfort or power as my '16.


Statistical validity when it comes to measuring precision. Too much variability in 5 shot groups. If you don't intend to shoot longer distances, it likely won't matter.


I don't think so, because you're not impressing upon anyone that they need to hunt with a 30-06 or 338. I don't care what anyone does, I don't like it when people tell me what they think I need to be doing. Or when they refute evidence like hundreds of pictures of dead deer, elk, moose, bear, and more from 223 bullets.

The .270 Win kills an elk just as dead as a 6.8mm Shooting Times Western, the result is the same. Obviously, the Western has a ballistic advantage, but either one would be a great elk rifle. To disagree with this is to ignore lots of full freezers in the same exact way as someone claiming the .223 is inadequate for elk (which I personally agree with, but that’s irrelevant because it’s illegal to hunt elk with .223 where I live). If it were legal, I wouldn’t try to tell you that you shouldn’t use a .223 caliber bullet for elk, but I’d have to be pretty desperate to use one.

You are missing something: If my noodle barreled elk rifle can shoot four sub MOA 3 shot groups (between cooling), the data is exactly as valid as your single 10 shot group, at any range.

 

[Wyobohunter]

JVB takes heat because he acts (literally an act) as the authority of facts regarding hunting and ethics. Half of what he says is just to sell product for his sponsors and the other half is 100 year old hunting folklore that has been disproven over and over.

Examples?

I’m not trying to white knight for the guy, but I have yet to see examples of this.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Fudds on .45s:

Fudd: "I carry a .45 because 2 world wars, they don't make a .46, etc, etc, I don't care what you have to say, because there's no replacement for displacement."

Partial Fudd: "I like a 1911 in .45 because I trust it and I hit with it, but you do you. I know lots of guys who run 9mms and they seem to do just fine with them, but it's not for me."

Former Fudd: "I used to carry a 1911 in .45, but found that when I actually tried a 9mm 2011 I hit better and faster and could carry 3x the ammo in one mag. Win win all the way around."


Fudds on 30-06s:

Fudd: "30-06 because 2 world wars, and if it's good enough for John Garand and John Moses Browning, it's good enough for me. I don't care what "data" you have, sonny. Varmint cartridges for varmints, I'm not going to waste my time trying what I know is dumb and unethical."

Partial Fudd: "I love my 30-06 Tikka, because I hit great with it and just don't see the need to try going down in caliber, but I'm open to the idea of trying something smaller at some point. It's good to hear other guys are having success with smaller cartridges though."

Former Fudd: "I used to love using my 30-06 on everything, but I discovered my first-round hit rate went up quite a bit in the realities of field conditions with smaller cartridges after I actually tried them, and literally saw no difference in killing capability with the smaller cartridges using match bullets once I started trying them. I love my 6mm Creedmoor, and haven't looked back."


See the difference?

Mindset and experience matter.

See the similarities?

 

[RockAndSage]

See the similarities?

Brother, you're not getting it - it's the close-mindedness that is a major part of being a Fudd. Wrapped in "knowledge" that makes someone impervious to new ideas, tools, info, etc.

Virtually nobody on here arguing for smaller cartridges started off that way.

Most of us, except possibly the youngest of guys, started out as what would fairly be called "partial Fudds" - thinking we knew more than we did, very comfortable in our unrealized ignorance, but open minded to trying new things and actually following through on it.

And when we did - and when we listened to guys trying new things and the results they were getting - we incorporated changes in our views based off of those experiences.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Brother, you're not getting it - it's the close-mindedness that is a major part of being a Fudd. Wrapped in "knowledge" that makes someone impervious to new ideas, tools, info, etc.

Virtually nobody on here arguing for smaller cartridges started off that way.

Most of us, except possibly the youngest of guys, started out as what would fairly be called "partial Fudds" - thinking we knew more than we did, very comfortable in our unrealized ignorance, but open minded to trying new things and actually following through on it.

And when we did - and when we listened to guys trying new things and the results they were getting - we incorporated changes in our views based off of those experiences.

I think either you aren’t getting it, or we are talking past each other. Would I trade my trusty 30-06 for a 6.8 Western? You bet I would, but I’m using the rifle/load I put together because it works just fine, I have other interests to pay for, and I have a college education to pay for. Assuming someone hasn’t upgraded to the newest cartridge because they are against them is no different than assuming someone who uses a newer cartridge is a neophyte. They are both assumptions based on lack of understanding. Anecdotally, I know lots of people who are very successful elk hunters (much more so than I), it’s probably an even split between “old school” and “new school”.

Neither are wrong.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Obviously, the Western has a ballistic advantage

That was my point..

You are missing something: If my noodle barreled elk rifle can shoot four sub MOA 3 shot groups (between cooling), the data is exactly as valid as your single 10 shot group, at any range.

I'm not missing something, you added something. I said 5 shots, not multiple groups with correlated size and POI. That's completely different.