Jimmy John kills potential new state record sheep in NM

[Steve O]

All the doubting Thomas questions would be unnecessary if any of the questioners were doing anything to support the sheep. Every single conservation organization dedicated to bettering the wild sheep gives you a newsletter or magazine with your minimal support of an annual membership and every issue highlights the good things they are doing with the money donated…every single one.

What sense is it to “prove” all the things like relocation, test and remove, water guzzlers, domestic sheep buyouts, range improvements of every kind imaginable, select burns, on and on, help the sheep more than doing nothing?

Makes about as much sense as defunding the police or having a completely open border.

 

[Archer86]

The bigger question. is the sliver of supposed good theses tags provide worth it sheep numbers are down in a majority of areas a few increase but not anything substantial the one example in colorado they transplanted 58 sheep 20 years ago and it's just barely at 150 sheep and colorado statewide sheep population has not increased at all

 

[carlc]

The bigger question. is the sliver of supposed good theses tags provide worth it sheep numbers are down in a majority of areas a few increase but not anything substantial the one example in colorado they transplanted 58 sheep 20 years ago and it's just barely at 150 sheep and colorado statewide sheep population has not increased at all

But if those 58 sheep hadn't been transplanted with donated dollars, would there be any sheep?

 

[Kurts86]

I don’t think there is a question that auction tags help wild sheep. The question is if the little piece of the soul of the North American model of conservation we loose is worth it for the funding game. It’s like only fans for hunting, you are definitely going to make some money but is the price worth the loss of dignity that comes with it?

As a purely analytical comparison auction tags make sense, but the loss is less tangible and more of a philosophical and ethical dilemma. I am a hyper analytical person but something about auction tags bothers me.

 

[Steve O]

The bigger question. is the sliver of supposed good theses tags provide worth it sheep numbers are down in a majority of areas a few increase but not anything substantial the one example in colorado they transplanted 58 sheep 20 years ago and it's just barely at 150 sheep and colorado statewide sheep population has not increased at all

That’s NOT all they have done in 20 years. Many projects are done in every state every year. All the guys that DO hunt sheep who do all the donating and all the work know it does a ton of good.

Sure is a lot easier to throw shade than to do any of the work.

 

[HuntHarder]

Steve O, you sure throw a lot of shade..... Lots of assumptions by you. Maybe it's because you have a sheep in your avatar, so you think you must be the only guy in here that hunts sheep. I have contributed plenty over the years, been on plenty of sheep hunts and I am still in favor of moving auction tags to raffle. Like I have said before, time will tell if this has a negative consequence on sheep populations. Lets circle back to Arizona in 5 years and see if any notable changes are occurring. If in fact, there are a bunch of negative consequences, it will be much easier to show facts, numbers to support your argument.

 

[Archer86]

That’s NOT all they have done in 20 years. Many projects are done in every state every year. All the guys that DO hunt sheep who do all the donating and all the work know it does a ton of good.

Sure is a lot easier to throw shade than to do any of the work.

Where did I say that's all they did read the post you quoted.

You don't know anythin if you can't look at the data around sheep and understand they're not better off now supposedly millions of dollars pumped into sheep and what do we have to show for it decline populations in most states some states that have the same population as 20 years ago and 1 or 2 examples of a a slight increase. That's not exactly a description of success

 

[Bowfinatic]

I know many ppl who are not happy with fish & game in states managing different aspects of wildlife
I hunted sheep in Montana and the guides were ticked at the sheep management. Irresponsible behavior

They moved something like 50 sheep from one area to another area that had sheep in the past. All 50 were wiped out by lions within a year

Tag allocations overages, animal relocation, season dates etc are many areas of complaints

Sometimes good money goes into bad ideas

 

[Dos XX]

He makes a great sandwich, too.

 

[OMB]

All the doubting Thomas questions would be unnecessary if any of the questioners were doing anything to support the sheep. Every single conservation organization dedicated to bettering the wild sheep gives you a newsletter or magazine with your minimal support of an annual membership and every issue highlights the good things they are doing with the money donated…every single one.

What sense is it to “prove” all the things like relocation, test and remove, water guzzlers, domestic sheep buyouts, range improvements of every kind imaginable, select burns, on and on, help the sheep more than doing nothing?

Makes about as much sense as defunding the police or having a completely open border.

Not sure on your criteria, but I'd classify myself as a Doubting Thomas. Through the years, I've split my giving between the Ruffed Grouse Society and Wild Sheep Foundation. Several years ago, I stopped giving to the Ruffed Grouse Society because there was a lack of tangible results on the ground, i.e., "mature timber hitting the ground to make habitat." They've since sort of changed direction, but I've found my time and money are better spent lobbying the county boards in the areas that I hunt.

With regards to WSF, lately there's always another level of donation that can be attained for another 1:10000 chance at a Mexico DBH hunt. We've seen auction tags outpace inflation by leaps and bounds, and we're promised every year that it funds things to add more tags to the pool for Joe Public. WSF started to a do a state of wild sheep in North America in recent magazine issues, and even comparing tags issued numbers versus 2000, it's clear that it's not a winning battle, much less comparing to 1980.

There's a reason people abbreviate Wild Sheep Foundation as W$F, and it's not a good thing. I allocate all of my non-profit giving to WSF and I'm proud of that. I've actually killed a sheep and I'll probably go on a sheep hunt every 5 years for the next 40 unless I can't get up the mountain anymore. But I look at things like Kuiu Conservation Direction doing real work, and compare it to Doug Sayer or Will Waldrip or Jimmy John buying their 5th or 6th governor's tag, sometimes skirting some regulation, and I wonder how much it's actually doing for sheep conservation.

 

[CorbLand]

All the doubting Thomas questions would be unnecessary if any of the questioners were doing anything to support the sheep. Every single conservation organization dedicated to bettering the wild sheep gives you a newsletter or magazine with your minimal support of an annual membership and every issue highlights the good things they are doing with the money donated…every single one.

What sense is it to “prove” all the things like relocation, test and remove, water guzzlers, domestic sheep buyouts, range improvements of every kind imaginable, select burns, on and on, help the sheep more than doing nothing?

Makes about as much sense as defunding the police or having a completely open border.

Pretty bold to assume anyone asking questions or doubting that something works doesn’t mean they donate time or money for the same cause they are doubting.

People should be questioning these things.

Any organization or entity can claim they are doing things. An organization or foundation has never lied.

 

[cbeard64]

WSF posts annual financial reports detailing every dollar spent and detailing where every dollar goes. The vast majority of the money spent goes directly to sheep conservation projects (either through state/provincial wildlife agencies or directly to sheep conservation groups doing the projects). This is simply the fact. Anyone wants to know where the money goes can see for themselves.

Rocky Mountain and Desert bighorn sheep populations have increased over threefold since sheep conservation became a focus beginning in the 70s. Dall and Stones populations have not had the same level of concern until more recently-and more funding has been shifted to address those populations in recent years.

Speculation, accusations, and anecdotal stories aside - these are the facts.

 

[Reburn]

Where did I say that's all they did read the post you quoted.

You don't know anythin if you can't look at the data around sheep and understand they're not better off now supposedly millions of dollars pumped into sheep and what do we have to show for it decline populations in most states some states that have the same population as 20 years ago and 1 or 2 examples of a a slight increase. That's not exactly a description of success

Your post is pure speculation that they arent better then they would have otherwise been without help.

Your post - " Millions of dollars and sheep are not better off"
My post - "Millions of dollars so the sheep havent been wiped out"

neither one of us can prove either statement. Unless you have a time machine?!?!?

 

[Reburn]

Pretty bold to assume anyone asking questions or doubting that something works doesn’t mean they donate time or money for the same cause they are doubting.

In this thread it has been proven true buy certian posters own account.

People should be questioning these things.

You are 100% right.

Any organization or entity can claim they are doing things. An organization or foundation has never lied.

Your right thats why people here that I know and trust say that they agree and verify what they are told within the various orgs. Trust but verify.

 

[Archer86]

Your post is pure speculation that they arent better then they would have otherwise been without help.

Your post - " Millions of dollars and sheep are not better off"
My post - "Millions of dollars so the sheep havent been wiped out"

neither one of us can prove either statement. Unless you have a time machine?!?!?

I don't need a time machine to tell that colordao sheep population is the same as it was 20 years ago or that wyoming has significantly dropped the last 20 years as well so it's really not speculation at all it's all facts that can be looked up by anyone. It's all documented sheep numbers are down in a majority of states with a few exceptions over the last 20 years

 

[Reburn]

I don't need a time machine to tell that colordao sheep population is the same as it was 20 years ago or that wyoming has significantly dropped the last 20 years as well so it's really not speculation at all it's all facts that can be looked up by anyone. It's all documented sheep numbers are down in a majority of states with a few exceptions over the last 20 years

Prove they wouldnt have been worse or extinct without millions of dollars in intervention.

I argue that the sheep population remaing stable is a net positive all factors considered.

 

[WRO]

I don't need a time machine to tell that colordao sheep population is the same as it was 20 years ago or that wyoming has significantly dropped the last 20 years as well so it's really not speculation at all it's all facts that can be looked up by anyone. It's all documented sheep numbers are down in a majority of states with a few exceptions over the last 20 years

Winter range and human encroachment would like a place at your seat of wisdom..

 

[Reburn]

Winter range and human encroachment would like a place at your seat of wisdom..

They won't have to steal critical thinking's place as he isn't there either.

 

[Archer86]

Winter range and human encroachment would like a place at your seat of wisdom..

With all that auction money they should be able to help with winter range habitat shouldn't they? How have you helped with that problem since you are so involved with sheep

half ass Insults is all you have to provide because you cant argue the fact the sheep numbers are down across the west

 

[Sandbrew]

Here's a great example nonprofits like the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society and WSF working with other nonprofits and nonhunters to save a tiny piece of Colorado bighorn winter range in an extremely pricey zip code. Nobody has a crystal ball but if this native herd disappeared or dies out what would the "cost' be to all of us? How much would it take to rebuild this herd?

There's a great short film about it here.

The rest of the story

VAIL BIGHORN SHEEP INITIATIVE

www.vailbighorn.com

In July 2023, the Eagle County District Court ruling affirmed that a preponderance of evidence exists to support the biological necessity to conserve this parcel for the sheep, giving the Town the right to purchase this 23-acre parcel of crucial winter range. A judge appointed commission recently determined the purchase price at $17.5 million, which ultimately results in total estimated expenses of $20.5 million to purchase this parcel. To demonstrate their unwavering support, the Town of Vail has committed an additional 123-acres of land adjacent to this existing parcel for open space and earmarked $12 million towards the land purchase, the max capacity available through the RETT fund - a fund dedicated to supporting efforts such as this.

To further this effort and align with their mission, Eagle County Open Space Advisory Committee has recommended up to $5 million to support to purchase of the 23 acre parcel. Coupled with the Town’s 123 acres, the full 146 acres will be designated Eagle County Open Space with the ultimate goal of protecting the sheep in perpetuity through the added layer of protection of a conservation easement. An acquisition of this size, for a mere contribution of $5 million is one of - if not THE - lowest cost per acre acquisitions for Eagle County Open Space, making this a huge win for them. This $5 million contribution is not guaranteed, Eagle County Commissioners must first vote to approve the contribution.

This creates an urgent need to publicly raise $3 million by the purchase deadline of October 3, 2023 to cover the gap in town and county funding. This short window creates an immediate call to action for our local community to join the Town of Vail, Eagle County and thousands of local residents to save the Vail Bighorns by making a meaningful and lasting gift that goes directly to saving the sheep. This monumental effort will be marked as an example of one of the greatest sheep conservation efforts of all time and will demonstrate the power of community impact in creating lasting solutions in conservation.This monumental effort will be marked as an example of one of the greatest sheep conservation efforts of all time and will demonstrate the power of community impact in creating lasting solutions in conservation.