Jim Shockey on Border Closure

[Billy Goat]

Clients didn't show because it was illegal to.

Maybe this is class action lawsuit. Not that it puts money in anyone's pocket but lawyers.

 

[gobblinglawyer]

Shockey needs to loosen that bandana around his neck. Apparently it’s too tight and must have cut off the blood flow to his brain to cause him to write such a one sided piece of “journalism!”

I’ve got money on deposit for a goat hunt mid August in BC (rolled from August 2020). Hoping it happens but at this point “it is what it is”. Our outfitter has been awesome in working with us and keeping us informed. Good luck to the rest of y’all in the boat with me!

 

[Reburn]

1) As I mentioned earlier. The Outfitters and Guides were there, ready and willing to provide a service. The client didn't show up. That is Breach of Contract.

2) If the client didn't pay in full, the Outfitter could sue based on that Breach of Contract. Even if the client was fully paid and the Outfitter was able to prove certain losses then they could still sue. However these hypothetical lawsuits would likely fail due to Force Majeur.

3) Even if the Contract makes allowances for unsuccessful hunt refunds, rights to delay or postpone the hunt, or other clauses that should result in the Outfitter refunding a portion or all of the funds to a client. The Outfitter then does not fulfill their obligations under the contract, it is Breach of Contract, not Fraud.

4) If the clients paid in full, arrived at the hunting lodge, only to find the lodge was a Yuppie Fat Farm and the "Outfitter" was actually the town drunk, that would be considered Fraud.

I numbered your post for ease. Its quite clear to see where you stand. Let me give you another perspective.

1). Even if the clients found a way to jump the border to get there I doubt any outfitter would have knowingly broken let law and allowed them to come due to the fact they would then be hosting criminals. Therefore the whole the client didnt show arguement and we were there ready comment doesnt really fly as they were not ready to receive the clients anyways.

2). The outfitters loss was in no way caused by the client. I guess they could try to sue the government. Good luck there. Thats the definition of throwing good money after bad.

3). To date I haven't heard of any outfitters saying your screwed we are keeping your money and not rolling your hunt. Also haven't heard of any clients saying "WE WANT IT NOW". From what I have seen on here at least is most guys just want a level of communication out of their outfitter. Now what happens when the border is actually open and hunts can resume. Its anyones guess. A little bit of communication from both sides goes a long ways.

4). Haha.

I feel its pertinent to point out that Shockey still has his name on a guide service. http://www.jimshockey.com/hunts.html
My response is screw that guy. Never will he ever be considered after that article he put out.

 

[tdot]

I numbered your post for ease. Its quite clear to see where you stand. Let me give you another perspective.

1). Even if the clients found a way to jump the border to get there I doubt any outfitter would have knowingly broken let law and allowed them to come due to the fact they would then be hosting criminals. Therefore the whole the client didnt show arguement and we were there ready comment doesnt really fly as they were not ready to receive the clients anyways.

2). The outfitters loss was in no way caused by the client. I guess they could try to sue the government. Good luck there. Thats the definition of throwing good money after bad.

3). To date I haven't heard of any outfitters saying your screwed we are keeping your money and not rolling your hunt. Also haven't heard of any clients saying "WE WANT IT NOW". From what I have seen on here at least is most guys just want a level of communication out of their outfitter. Now what happens when the border is actually open and hunts can resume. Its anyones guess. A little bit of communication from both sides goes a long ways.

4). Haha.

I feel its pertinent to point out that Shockey still has his name on a guide service. http://www.jimshockey.com/hunts.html
My response is screw that guy. Never will he ever be considered after that article he put out.

I'm just a Canadian arguing in defense of an entire industry that seems to be getting targeted unreasonably by many of the comments in this thread. Shockey did a piss poor job of attempting to do the same thing, if anything his comments inflammed the situation. Truthfully I'd rather see fewer Outfitters and their clients hunting in my home Province, but they have a right to earn a living, same as everyone else. I might not like their role in the Province, but I'll absolutely defend small businesses. I'd also rather not see the American clients being screwed, as I mentioned earlier every case is different and I hope everyone is trying to be understanding of the other side. It ain't easy for anyone.

I've heard of several Americans that were guided last hunting season. I don't know how they crossed, but there were certainly loop holes. The Outfitters definitely did not turn them away. Every outfitter that I spoke to in Northern BC, when I was up there Sheep hunting, was heading in to host Canadian or European clients they'd managed to book on short notice. Camps weren't full, but hunts were happening.

The guys I really feel for are the Outfitters up in the Territories. They weren't even allowed to set foot in the Northwest Territories and I believe the Yukon to even work on their camps. So for those hunts, it's a whole other situation.

 

[tdot]

I just read some quotes from our Public Safety Minister, Bill Blair, the guy is Jackass, almost as bad as Trudeau. Apparently they aren't planning on fully easing border restrictions until atleast 75% of the Canadian population is fully vaccinated. This government's only power has come from the lockdowns. They are loving Covid. I'm afraid it might be awhile before we see the borders open.

 

[Reburn]

I'm just a Canadian arguing in defense of an entire industry that seems to be getting targeted unreasonably by many of the comments in this thread. Shockey did a piss poor job of attempting to do the same thing, if anything his comments inflammed the situation. Truthfully I'd rather see fewer Outfitters and their clients hunting in my home Province, but they have a right to earn a living, same as everyone else. I might not like their role in the Province, but I'll absolutely defend small businesses. I'd also rather not see the American clients being screwed, as I mentioned earlier every case is different and I hope everyone is trying to be understanding of the other side. It ain't easy for anyone.

I've heard of several Americans that were guided last hunting season. I don't know how they crossed, but there were certainly loop holes. The Outfitters definitely did not turn them away. Every outfitter that I spoke to in Northern BC, when I was up there Sheep hunting, was heading in to host Canadian or European clients they'd managed to book on short notice. Camps weren't full, but hunts were happening.

The guys I really feel for are the Outfitters up in the Territories. They weren't even allowed to set foot in the Northwest Territories and I believe the Yukon to even work on their camps. So for those hunts, it's a whole other situation.

I doubt Canada will get to be in my hunting rotation for any of the 20's. I didn't have a hunt booked pre 2020. I think the industry is going to be a complete shit show due to the government. However I sit here and remain fully vaxed and ready to go if something shakes loose and I can pony up cash and hunt this year. The outfitters wont be able to guide all the 2020 guys in 2021 or all the 2020 & 2021 guys in 2022. They will have to mix them in the next 5 years and they will need to have current paying clients to offset the entire year reset. But when you think of it how messed up is it that the outfitters have clients booked out 3 years and all of a sudden they are going bankrupt. So 2020 didnt happen but what about all the money from 21, and 22 and even maybe 23. It sounds an aweful lot like robbing peter to pay paul.

I'll say that the article that Shockey wrote was kind of a punch in the face to americans. Calling them / us deadbeats and such. I can say our South African outfitters have been extremely good to work with. We did have a hunt scheduled for 2020 that got rolled to 2021. Due to territory closures in Africa and the dumbass rules that the US state department put out getting back from Africa we didnt get to go this year either. Our south african friends took our slot on our hunt and had a fantastic time last year. They were nice enough to send pictures of what we missed. Its irritating to say the least that we arent there. In fact I should be there right now. Our outfitter in Argentina has been emailing us and we are about ready to just fly down there this year to get out of here. They just opened a new lodge and are ready to start taking clients. We have never had better hunts on all aspects then Argentina/Uraguay.

The point is many outfitters all over the world have been hurt by covid. Many due to thier outstanding communication and customer service will come back like rockets from covid. The ones that want to act like shitheads will crash and burn.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Americans (and hunters from other countries restricted from traveling to Canada) are not guilty of breach of contract because Canada denied them access. The hunters are blameless. They paid for services being denied them and the charge card companies tend to side with cardholders when they are injured whether their contract has a force majeure clause or not.
Force majeure events typically enumerated in contracts include:

1. acts of God, such as severe acts of nature or weather events including floods, fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, or explosions;
2. war, acts of terrorism, and epidemics;
3. acts of governmental authorities such as expropriation, condemnation, and changes in laws and regulations;
4. strikes and labor disputes; and
5. certain accidents.[2] Economic hardship typically is not enough to qualify as a force majeure event on its own.[3]

I know of six people who received 100% of their hunt deposits back because Covid made it impossible for them to go. I am not saying this is fair to Canadian outfitters, just stating it remains an option for hunters who paid and got zip. You guys can argue the ethics and BS legalese all you like...if I had lost thousands of dollars this way and was unable to come to terms with the outfitter, I would try to recoup my funds. No justification for guide to be paid when he did nothing. Everyone was forced to suffer from Covid. Many businesses with Merchant Accounts (for processing charge cards) have agreed to lengthy contracts with the CC processing company that includes a force majeure clause the vendor (outfitter in this case) must honor. The law is always on the consumer's side.

Shockey is entitled to his opinion but that's all it is, an opinion. I am of the opinion that Shockey should flip the covers open before shooting his scoped rifles. (B roll follies are fun)

 

[dreamingbig]

In Contract Law in our country, the client could actually be sued for not completing the contract. Would it be successful? Given the circumstances, highly unlikely. But as I said in my previous post. The Outfitters and Guides were there to provide a service. The client didnt show up. That is Breach of contract.

This is not fraud. It's a shitty situation for both parties. American laws stop at the 49th parallel. Maybe it's fraud in your country, but not up here.

Except your country wouldn’t allow travel to happen. Did they open the border? Sue your own government.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Okhotnik]

I just read some quotes from our Public Safety Minister, Bill Blair, the guy is Jackass, almost as bad as Trudeau. Apparently they aren't planning on fully easing border restrictions until atleast 75% of the Canadian population is fully vaccinated. This government's only power has come from the lockdowns. They are loving Covid. I'm afraid it might be awhile before we see the borders open.

you are absolutely right

 

[roadrunner]

No chance.

I don't read that at all. I read from guys that have patiently waited a year of their lives for some sort of financial relief or reinstatement of a service promised. And obviously we're not talking a few hundred bucks, we're talking many tens of thousands.
To add insult to injury, they read an article like this JS crap. Pretty shocking really.

I'd be far less patient than I have read here.

Never once said some sort of recompense shouldn't happen. My comments have been based on the whole concept of fraud when fraud really wasn't committed and attitude of vengeance exhibited by some without recognizing business expenses are passed down to the customer. It isn't a free service to provide anykind of service to a customer. Airlines rarely issue refunds. Is that fraud as well?

Not wanting to make something right is just cappy behavior.

 

[roadrunner]

So same question to you: If not fraud what would this be called in legal terms? They took money, provided nothing. Technically they did provide opportunity, I suppose, not their fault and all that, but maaaan, I would not sleep well playing that game.

They took money to provide what they've always done up to that point per their business model. I don't know what their business model is. If it takes $5k to make all the arrangements to then be ready for the hunter to show up and pay the remaining balance to complete the "in consideration of" portion of the agreement is money that is legitimate and used properly.

You pay an attorney a retainer and never use their services, do they have to pay you back and when they don't it's fraud? Good luck with that one...

 

[5MilesBack]

As I mentioned earlier. The Outfitters and Guides were there, ready and willing to provide a service. The client didn't show up. That is Breach of Contract.

Seriously? Let's see here........the border is closed, but the outfitter still expected the clients to show up?

I can totally see that.......a bunch of guys standing around looking at their watches and wondering where the clients are. They spent all week stocking food in the camps, everything is fully fueled, and where the heck are the clients?? LOL. Now I'm thinking Bob and Doug McKenzie as Canadian outfitters.

 

[tdot]

Seriously? Let's see here........the border is closed, but the outfitter still expected the clients to show up?

I can totally see that.......a bunch of guys standing around looking at their watches and wondering where the clients are. They spent all week stocking food in the camps, everything is fully fueled, and where the heck are the clients?? LOL. Now I'm thinking Bob and Doug McKenzie as Canadian outfitters.

Every single outfitter that I spoke to, or heard stories about was in camp, some were guiding Canadian or European clients, some working on maintenance or expansion of facilities, trails, etc, some were there hoping the border would open. Now this was BC and a couple on Alberta, of course there could have been exceptions and certainly elsewhere in Canada it may have been different.

I don't actually think those lawsuits would ever take place, it was simply a response to several claims of Fraud and an explanation of how it could be looked at, if you actually break down the chain of events. Border/Covid is an outside event that neither the Outfitter or Client control, and Force Majeur would override any suit.

 

[alaska_bou]

Don't forget that the majority of international outfitters who were all affected by Covid and border closures are rolling their clients to future years without a penalty or fee increase. This puts operations like Shockey's in the minority.

 

[roadrunner]

Hypothetical situation.

A guy shoots a nice mule deer. He wants to do a shoulder mount. He takes it to a taxidermist that has a fairly good reputation. The hunter drops off the cape and horns, tells the taxidermist how he'd like the mount to look and drives away. One year goes by and the call is made to the hunter to come pick up the mount. A month goes by, nothing. Call is made again, and another month goes by and nothing. Calls a third time two weeks later and nothing. Calls a fourth time and tells the customer his mount is ready and is needing him to come and pick it up. After 6 months roll by, the taxidermist has moved on to other work and finally one year since the first call was made, the taxidermist discovers the hunter took another job out of state and moved. The taxidermist is now out the shop labor to prep the cape, tan it, order the form, use materials to do the mount including shop labor and now has $750 of his business capital wrapped up in a mount he will not be able to recover. Legally, he can sell it and hope to get 50% of that amount to offset cost.

Another hunter shoots a nice antelope buck. Same scenario above unfolds except this time the hunter has a death in the family and then his house is destroyed by a tornado. The hunter is forced to rebuild and has to upfront 10% of the cost for his deductible. Funds are tight because his son broke his arm in a baseball game and has to pay the copays and deductibles for medical bills. The antelope is never picked up after multiple attempts to contact and work something out with the hunter and the taxidermist sells the mount again in hopes of recovering half the invested cost.

The taxidermist has now learned his lesson and requires a 50% deposit going forward on all taxidermy work, regardless of what it is.

Which hunter is a deadbeat customer? Neither picked up their finished product stiffing the taxidermist twice on the full cost of the mount. Work was done, taxidermist was ready for the hunters to show up.

Switch gears now. The hunter drops off an animal he shot, biggest ever of that species for him, and spent 15 years trying to draw that tag. After one year goes by, a deposit was made, the first call issued for pickup and the hunter is planning on getting it the next day and pay in full the remaining balance. A tornado rips through the community and destroys the taxidermist' shop and destroys the biggest ever and took forever to draw animal the hunter had mounted.

Does the taxidermist owe the deposit back to the hunter...?

Simple yes or no. And yes, the answer is obvious. Don't live in tornado alley...

 

[MosquitoCoast]

So I'm in the middle of this crap now. I went to the Yukon to hunt Moose in 2018. Had a great successful hunt with a very reputable and respected outfitter whose land is literally north adjacent of Shockey's. At the end of that hunt I gave a big tip and booked a 2020 sheep hunt. Covid hits, can't cross border, my trip gets pushed to this year. I figured for sure the border would have worked itself out by now and I'm still hoping I will be in the Yukon on 8/9 to start my sheep hunt, but I don't know. It is what it is. It sounds like there is a small chance that we will get in this year as long as you have proof of vaccination.

Having seen how the outfitters up there operate, I have sympathy. While Shockey's article is tone deaf and he sounds like a total jack ass for writing it, some parts are understood. The cost for those guys to get you into their territory and then bush plane you in and out of areas is an expense incurred prior to your arrival. In most cases you are paying them to book you on a separate small airline that flies 6-10 people onto gravel tarmacs like some small city like Mayo and from there then you are on their planes whether it be float planes or super cubs or in my case, both. It took three small planes to get me from Whitehorse into my hunt area and three small planes back in 2018, so yeah there's some real expense there to service these hunts and have these planes available. And that is just the planes.

In my case, our outfitter moved all of his Canadian clients into 2020 season just so he could have a Sheep and Moose season. This year its all Americans and other nationalities. If for some reason this doesn't work itself out, I imagine we are all screwed. That said, I have trust in my outfitter because I booked with someone who has a long reputable history. I imagine if it doesn't work this year we will get pushed to another which sucks but what can I do. It's not his fault that Wuhan unleashed holy hell on the world and screwed us all. Ultimately, you have faith that people will do the right thing. You place your money in people you trust. Which is why I don't have a problem spending money with reputable outfitters.

I sympathize for the guys who saved every dollar just to go on a hunt like these. They aren't cheap. I am lucky I can afford it and if for some reason Trudeau screws the pooch again, I'll gladly anti up again to go to Canada when this shit show is over. Still keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

 

[MosquitoCoast]

Hypothetical situation.

A guy shoots a nice mule deer. He wants to do a shoulder mount. He takes it to a taxidermist that has a fairly good reputation. The hunter drops off the cape and horns, tells the taxidermist how he'd like the mount to look and drives away. One year goes by and the call is made to the hunter to come pick up the mount. A month goes by, nothing. Call is made again, and another month goes by an nothing. Calls a third time a two weeks later and nothing. Calls a fourth time and tells the customer his mount is ready and is needing him to come and pick it up. After 6 months roll by, the taxidermist has moved on to other work and finally one year since the first call was made, the taxidermist discovers the hunter took another job out of state and moved. The taxidermist is now out the shop labor to prep the cape, tan it, order the form, use materials to do the mount including shop labor and now has $750 of his business capital wrapped up in a mount he will not be able to recover. Legally, he can sell it and hope to get 50% of that amount to offset cost.

Another hunter shoots a nice antelope buck. Same scenario above unfolds except this time the hunter has a death in the family and then his house is destroyed by a tornado. The hunter is forced to rebuild and has to upfront 10% of the cost to rebuild for his deductible. Funds are tight because his son broke his arm in a baseball game and has to pay his copays and deductibles for medical bills. The antelope is never picked up after multiple attempts to contact and work something out with the hunter and the taxidermist sells the mount again in hopes of recovering the half the invested cost.

The taxidermist has now learned his lesson and requires a 50% deposit going forward on all taxidermy work, regardless of what it is.

Which hunter is a deadbeat customer? Neither picked up their finished product stiffing the taxidermist twice on the full cost of the mount. Work was done, taxidermist was ready for the hunters to show up.

Switch gears now. The hunter drops off an animal he shot, biggest ever of that species for him, and spent 15 years trying to draw that tag. After one year goes by, a deposit was made, the first call issued for pickup and the hunter is planning on getting it the next day and pay in full the remaining balance. A tornado rips through the community and destroys the taxidermist' shop and destroys the biggest ever and took forever to draw animal the hunter had mounted.

Does the taxidermist owe the deposit back to the hunter...?

Simple yes or no. And yes, the answer is obvious. Don't live in tornado alley...

This is an excellent analogy. You can't blame the taxidermist for the tornado and you can't blame the outfitter for Covid.

On a side note regarding Jim Shockey, I think he's dramatizing his end of this. Jim doesn't even run his operation. His partner does. He just flies in for the television scenes and the guys who personally paid to hunt with him. So Jim speaking about this like he knows all about it, is a little misleading.

If Jim has been making ends meet his whole life then how do you make ends meet and have an entire hands of man museum which cost a pretty penny. He sounds like a total jackass. I like him otherwise, but just learn to STFU every now and again.

 

[Billy Goat]

The thing about the taxidermy analogy is the costs are blown out of the water. Materials are pretty cheap, if you send your capes to get tanned you have some higher costs, but it's not near what many want you to believe.


I doubt the outfitters are running on the thin margins they want you to believe either.

 

[go4thegusto]

Our 2021 SK bear hunt was pushed to 2022 by the outfitter. When we talked to him about how he was weathering it all he said he wasn't harmed at all. The Canadian government had taken care of him nicely. Sound like the CA version of our PPP/PPE was pretty darn lucrative. Shockey must be pissed about the fat cat tips!

 

[roadrunner]

The thing about the taxidermy analogy is the costs are blown out of the water. Materials are pretty cheap, if you send your capes to get tanned you have some higher costs, but it's not near what many want you to believe.


I doubt the outfitters are running on the thin margins they want you to believe either.

So missed the point, hence the words hypothetical situation. I can rewrite it and use $200 and $300 respectively if you wish...

And no, a taxidermist WILL NOT do a shoulder mount for cost.