Jim Shockey on Border Closure

[roadrunner]

If these nonperforming, Canadian outfitters appear personally at some of the upcoming shows like DSC or SCI on US soil then serve them with a federal or state lawsuit and summons for unjust enrichment, non-performance, civil theft, breach of contract, and other possible claims, filed in a US federal trial court. Possibly enjoin any property they have here in the US (including future hunt revenues) until the case is concluded or settled.At a minimum, they would have to defend. Would cost the offended, hunting client more money in legal fees and attorney fees but they are already out big money from the above posts.

Disclosure: Not legal advice and I do not have any skin or money in the Canadian hunt “scam”.

I'd be surprised if a US fed court would even entertain something like this.

The only bite would be to place a judgement lein on US held property, but the AG of that state would have to agree...

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Likely a 120 day limit on credit card stuff like that?

No limit other than the amount you paid. Covid falls under an Act of God rather than a legal closing of the border (as some outfitters claim) so you are 100% covered and entitled to full reimbursement. The CC companies usually side with the card holder, especially when the cardholder suffered but was entirely blameless for the loss.

 

[wind gypsy]

What happens when it is "officially" determined it leaked from a CHINESE lab and is not an act of god?

Most of the contracts I've worked with also include epidemic, pandemic, terrorism or threat of terrorism, sabotage, etc as Force Majeure events.

 

[Broomd]

The article is a hypothetical case. Maybe Shockey knows a specific outfitter the article is based on, but it's likely an average scenario that has no actual and definitive substance.

Shockey's message for full refunds is don't hold your breath and here's why.

The instant gratification attitude we have adopted as an American society is stifling...

Man, I get that society is ridiculously spoiled overall, but I'm trying to see where you're going here as it relates to guided hunters.
There is a helluva big difference between 'instant gratification' and a hopeful hunter who saved and counted pennies for (sometimes many) years to try to get somewhat close to the guided situation he originally bargained for pre-Covid.

I gotta say, that last sentence in this context reads like something Shockey would write!

 

[roadrunner]

Man, I get that society is ridiculously spoiled overall, but I'm trying to see where you're going here as it relates to guided hunters.
There is a helluva big difference between 'instant gratification' and a hopeful hunter who saved and counted pennies for (sometimes many) years to try to get somewhat close to the guided situation he originally bargained for pre-Covid.

I gotta say, that last sentence in this context reads like something Shockey would write!

Sue them and sue them now. Crush them in court, they lied, cheated, and stole unearned money. I would submit that only in America you will hear those words.

That's the instant gratification I'm talking about. People forget, they hired the outfitter to provide a service. Part of that service is making arrangements. Those arrangements have a cost...

 

[Mtnboy]

I don't have skin in this game and don't claim to know how any Outfitter operates their business or the financials of that but.....

Shockey could not have been more one-sided in that article.

He is so quick to dismiss the financial commitment made by so many, probably because he himself goes on many hunts that cost as much as he claims his peers who are outfitters in Canada make in a year. He even says at the end "Would the loss of one year’s worth of your discretionary holiday dollars affect your financial future?" Talk about out of touch with reality....I'd venture a guess that well over half those who book these dream hunts in Canada do so after multiple/many years of saving.

Not everyone has the pocket book to galavant the glove on guided hunts every year like Shockey and his buddies.

 

[Broomd]

Sue them and sue them now. Crush them in court, they lied, cheated, and stole unearned money. I would submit that only in America you will hear those words.

That's the instant gratification I'm talking about. People forget, they hired the outfitter to provide a service. Part of that service is making arrangements. Those arrangements have a cost...

RR, I think you mean *indemnification*....sorry to seem all grammar police, but the devil is in the details especially with $30-40K hunts...

I don't think anybody (American or otherwise) wants to say or hear those "cheated and stole" words, they just want a fair shake going forward.
Shockey is completely aloof as it relates to the average Joe who's doing his 'hunt of a lifetime.'

 

[Reburn]

Sue them and sue them now. Crush them in court, they lied, cheated, and stole unearned money. I would submit that only in America you will hear those words.

That's the instant gratification I'm talking about. People forget, they hired the outfitter to provide a service. Part of that service is making arrangements. Those arrangements have a cost...

I'll just say this. Being broke is temporary if your any good at running a business. A bad reputation is tar baby and you will never shake it. Covid was a shit show and continues to be so.

The people that hold up there responsibilities I would bet a dollar end up smelling like roses and will have clients booked out as far as they like. The ones that want to act like covid only affected them and they are owed will crash in a spectactular fashion. If it was shockeys 30-65k that was hanging out there he would feel a bit differently. This was the nail in the shockey coffin for me.

 

[Fatcamp]

It's not fraud. That's going a touch far.

Wait, you take someone's money for a good or service and provide nothing. What would you call that?

 

[MattB]

Wait, you take someone's money for a good or service and provide nothing. What would you call that?

If an outfitter's intent at the time was to take deposit money for personal enrichment and to never provide the service, that would be fraud. I highly doubt what we are talking about would meet the legal threshold.

 

[Fatcamp]

If an outfitter's intent at the time was to take deposit money for personal enrichment and to never provide the service, that would be fraud. I highly doubt what we are talking about would meet the legal threshold.

Hmmm.... So what would this be called in a legal sense?

 

[wind gypsy]

I read it. It was pretty one sided on who shockey sympathizes with but it doesn't stir up any negative feelings towards Shockey for me even though I already wasn't a huge fan. I buy the fact that outfitters spent considerable $ preparing for hunts last year not knowing if they were going to open the border. They cant just recover those losses in a year because in most cases they can't book additional hunts to make up for it either because they cant exceed a quota or they need to be stewards of the resource. Sucks for everyone involved and the sad part of it is it's government caused.

 

[roadrunner]

RR, I think you mean *indemnification*....sorry to seem all grammar police, but the devil is in the details especially with $30-40K hunts...

No, instant gratification is the proper word usage. "I want it, and I want it now, and I want it my way!" When someone cries "boycott!" or figuratively drawing and quartering a service provider, that is the trait they are exhibiting. I'm speaking about the behavior, not a solution which is what most involved are probably doing but not those without a dog in the fight...

Wait, you take someone's money for a good or service and provide nothing. What would you call that?

They were providing the same service and process as the year before, and the year before that. It wasn't fraud then only because the hunter showed up and paid the balance for the remainder of the hunt.

Fraud would be saying they were an outfitter and charging you money when they were nothing of the sort.

 

[Fatcamp]

No, instant gratification is the proper word usage. "I want it, and I want it now, and I want it my way!" When someone cries "boycott!" or figuratively drawing and quartering a service provider, that is the trait they are exhibiting. I'm speaking about the behavior, not a solution which is what most involved are probably doing but not those without a dog in the fight...



They were providing the same service and process as the year before, and the year before that. It wasn't fraud then only because the hunter showed up and paid the balance for the remainder of the hunt.

Fraud would be saying they were an outfitter and charging you money when they were nothing of the sort.

So same question to you: If not fraud what would this be called in legal terms? They took money, provided nothing. Technically they did provide opportunity, I suppose, not their fault and all that, but maaaan, I would not sleep well playing that game.

 

[MattB]

Hmmm.... So what would this be called in a legal sense?

I am no lawyer but best guess is it would be treated as an unpaid debt, essentially the same as being an unsecured creditor in a bankruptcy.

 

[MattB]

I am no lawyer but best guess is it would be treated as an unpaid debt, essentially the same as being an unsecured creditor in a bankruptcy.

And I have been there, was 2 days from leaving on a caribou hunt at Tuttulik when they announced they were ceasing operations. The hunt was fully paid for and, to add insult to injury, they requested an additional fuel surcharge of $150/hunter.

 

[Broomd]

No, instant gratification is the proper word usage. "I want it, and I want it now, and I want it my way!" ...

No chance.

I don't read that at all. I read from guys that have patiently waited a year of their lives for some sort of financial relief or reinstatement of a service promised. And obviously we're not talking a few hundred bucks, we're talking many tens of thousands.
To add insult to injury, they read an article like this JS crap. Pretty shocking really.

I'd be far less patient than I have read here.

 

[Marbles]

If you paid for a hunt you cannot reschedule then simply submit a chargeback request with your credit card issuer. They will immediately credit you any funds paid for a hunt you were unable to take due to Covid-19. Sucks but that's all you can do.

Depending on the terms of any contract, that would be actual fraud.

If the policy or contract at booking allowed for refunds, then was changed, this is a valid option. If the contract did not, this is fraud.

 

[Billy Goat]

I'll just say this. Being broke is temporary if your any good at running a business. A bad reputation is tar baby and you will never shake it. Covid was a shit show and continues to be so.

The people that hold up there responsibilities I would bet a dollar end up smelling like roses and will have clients booked out as far as they like. The ones that want to act like covid only affected them and they are owed will crash in a spectactular fashion. If it was shockeys 30-65k that was hanging out there he would feel a bit differently. This was the nail in the shockey coffin for me.

I got donuts against your dollar.

 

[tdot]

Wait, you take someone's money for a good or service and provide nothing. What would you call that?

As I mentioned earlier. The Outfitters and Guides were there, ready and willing to provide a service. The client didn't show up. That is Breach of Contract.

If the client didn't pay in full, the Outfitter could sue based on that Breach of Contract. Even if the client was fully paid and the Outfitter was able to prove certain losses then they could still sue. However these hypothetical lawsuits would likely fail due to Force Majeur.

Even if the Contract makes allowances for unsuccessful hunt refunds, rights to delay or postpone the hunt, or other clauses that should result in the Outfitter refunding a portion or all of the funds to a client. The Outfitter then does not fulfill their obligations under the contract, it is Breach of Contract, not Fraud.

If the clients paid in full, arrived at the hunting lodge, only to find the lodge was a Yuppie Fat Farm and the "Outfitter" was actually the town drunk, that would be considered Fraud.