Is training forced fetch ethical?

[Chuckybmd]

Looking to discuss The ethics of training a bird dog using the forced fetch method.

I have a dog in training now and I guess I didn’t quite realize that one of the methods to train the dog to fetch is referred to as the forced fetch technique. It basically involves twisting the dogs ear until it complies with fetching or holding.

Seeing this and not expecting it gave me a bit of a gut wrench.

I’ve been rather successful in starting my dogs to sit stay and heel with basic rewards and have had fairly good success.

That being said I realize I have absolutely no experience with advanced hunting training which is why I am paying for a trainer.

Honestly, I feel guilty that I have allowed this to happen to my dog. But is it for the best?

I’ve heard others say that “It teaches a dog to do its job, and if a dog does it’s job, it is happy.”

Thoughts?

 

[id_jon]

No different than an e collar. It can be done wrong, but if done right, I see no issues.

 

[Superdoo]

Yes it’s ethical and yes, you can make it into an awful experience.

 

[Superdoo]

Yes it’s ethical and yes, you can make it into an awful experience.

 

[Chuckybmd]

No different than an e collar. It can be done wrong, but if done right, I see no issues.

What is the right way to do it?

 

[id_jon]

What is the right way to do it?

I'm not qualified enough to say definitively
That said, I trained both my dogs, and they fetch just about anything I tell them to. A lot of that will be bred into a well bred dog. Some pups will respond with a super slight pinch, not even close to enough to cause pain. Others will need more persuasion. Either way, using the discomfort will be pretty brief in the overall training of the dog.

 

[KurtR]

Force fetch is about teaching them pressure on pressure off. It’s the precursor to collar conditioning them. You don’t just twist a ear and make them do it there is a lot more to it. If it was the wrong way it wouldn’t be used by every top trainer in the country. It’s no different than a healing stick or just yelling at the dog it’s all pressure and can be used right or abused. This is my third lab and the first one fully force fetch and I did a disservice to the other 2 they could have been so much better. Your paying a trainer let him do his job and you will have a dog better than you could have ever believed. Training humans is harder than the dog.

 

[huntnful]

There is WAY MORE to it. Don't even think about doing it if that's as much as you've researched. It is not difficult or "unethical". Learn to do it right and be patient with small wins along the way. You don't twist their ear either. Don't do that. Freddy King on youtube has a couple good videos on it.

 

[Renojxd]

I feel like a small amount of discomfort to remind of proper techniques/rules could prove invaluable.

 

[Chuckybmd]

There is WAY MORE to it. Don't even think about doing it if that's as much as you've researched. It is not difficult or "unethical". Learn to do it right and be patient with small wins along the way. You don't twist their ear either. Don't do that. Freddy King on youtube has a couple good videos on it.

Im not sure that you picked up, that my trainer is using this method, not me. I may have misinterpreted the ear pinch vs twist but the principle is the same.

Im simply questioning it. Like any good technique, it should stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Rokbar]

The way it was explained to me was, the instinct to fetch is bred into the dog. That particular dog knows what it is supposed to do. The trainer, when done correctly is just reminding that dog. Remember, you are the master that breed aims to please. I have been around setters that needed reminding and some that didn't.

 

[Clovis]

To the OP, how much trust do you have that you have selected a good trainer? That would be the key question to me if it were my dog. "Force Fetch" may mean different things to different trainers and it is not a fair summation of the process as I learned it. I would suggest that you talk with your trainer about how it is being done, why and the whole training sequence, do your research and then decide.

 

[2buffalo]

I have trained retreivers for hunting and hunt tests and I don't know another way to accomplish what force fetch teaches a dog. I personally don't think it is unethical. It is basically an ear pinch with the dog on a platform at eye level with a short leash so they can't get away. It teaches them to open their mouth and grab the bumper out of your hand when commanded to. It also teaches them to hold the bumper until you give the drop command. Most dogs pick up on this pretty quick under pressure but some dogs are just stubborn and it takes a little longer. The best retreiver I ever had was a Chesapeake and she was extremely stubborn but had alot of drive and could find a duck in the thickest of cover or several feet underwater if they dove.

 

[Salmonchaser]

My older shorthair was a PIA as a retriever. The summer she was 1 1/2 one of my clients was a professional trainer. He offered to take her on when we got back to America. Molly sat there and listened while we had dinner in the lodge. Got home for only one day and they had me guiding a group from Leupold. One of the first roosters took one pellet in the lungs. Locked wings and finally crashed down by the river. Later measured at 900 yards. Molly jumped two fences en route, was gone about 15 minutes, dropped the bird at my feet. Had a remarkable career after that.
Yes force fetching is ethical and yes Molly could be better, but I won't hesitate to do so in the future.
Good luck, keep it fun

 

[eamyrick]

Not specifically force fetch but I spent a year dojng Cornerstone’s positive method for my lab. We got 90% the way there but the amount of frustration caused by the dogs strong will was gonna be unpleasant for both of us. I got an E Collar and all issues were resolved in 2 weeks. He may have got less than 5 decent applications and in the last 4 years I’m not sure I recall using it even though he wears it in the field.

I’ve been around working dogs at work who get years of training prior to being deployed and at the end of the day you can’t forget a domesticated hunting dog really isn’t that far from a wild wolf, and you have to be comfortable inducing some pain now and then to establish who is in charge.

This is my two cents and personal experience, there are others who know much more than me and may have the magic touch but that hasn’t worked for me.

 

[cacklercrazy]

What is the right way to do it?

Get a trainer program to follow. I used duck dog training DVD series. Chris went over it well. A rough run down. Is tie dog to table, sxs, back of pick up. Then put leather glove on your hand. Place your hand in dogs mouth and say the word hold while holding down on dogs jaw .work up to a paint roller. Give plenty of praise while doing it. It's a slow but need process.

 

[NB7]

That being said I realize I have absolutely no experience with advanced hunting training which is why I am paying for a trainer.

If you're already paying a trainer, I wouldn't sweat it especially since he's doing it and not you. If he's good and reputable he's already familiar with a good technique and the best way to apply it. All dog training is very nuanced and much also depends on the breed and individual dog's personality. I've had one that hated it and one that loved it like a game. First dog I ever force-fetched, the end result wasn't the greatest, but those after that were a breeze and that foundation made all further training much easier. A good trainer will be able to read the dog and maximize the process. Force fetch is really a form of obedience training and much of the training program and ongoing maintenance relies on basic obedience.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Force fetching is awesome if done correctly. There are severe and mild versions of the training technique. I used a mild version with my GSP and it was fine.

 

[KurtR]

Im not sure that you picked up, that my trainer is using this method, not me. I may have misinterpreted the ear pinch vs twist but the principle is the same.

Im simply questioning it. Like any good technique, it should stand up to scrutiny.

Thats the thing it has stood up. Almost Every NFC, NAFC, GRHRC , MHN dog has been ff. If there was a better way the top guys in the field trial game would have found it. With the invent of ecollars the training has gotten so mush more pleasant. Back in the day shotguns with rock salt and heavy hands were the norm.

 

[2ski]

I mean it's up to you. How rock solid do you want your dog's retrieve? If you're good having it drop it a few feet away and you go get it or other not perfect retrieves, you're the only one that can decide that. I may or may not FF my dog. I'm probably not going to UT him. If I was going to UT him then yes for sure probably. But if i ever decided to force fetch him, I'm paying someone else to do it. I don't think I can take doing it.

My biggest thing right now is my dog destroys birds. That's going to be my challenge and decider on force fetch.