Is there anyone who prefers MOA vs MIls for hunting purposes?

It doesn't really matter if the reticle is true if you're using the reticle as the ruler. As long as you don't change the magnification between spotting your shot and your follow up.

Edit to add: as long as you hold your correction vs dialing

He mentioned it assuming the lines on the reticle/"ruler" need to be true to function. I.e. running it at max magnification. They don't. They can be used as reference lines at any magnification.
True, but not if you’re trying to move poi a specified called amount. And assuming the mag isn’t cranked back down to reacquire the target as is often the case with SFP and then ripped back up to a different X to shoot.
 
True, but not if you’re trying to move poi a specified called amount. And assuming the mag isn’t cranked back down to reacquire the target as is often the case with SFP and then ripped back up to a different X to shoot.
Guys zooming in and out like Jack Sparrow trying to look through his spyglass is just painful to watch in matches and comps, and even more painful to watch when hunting.
 
He mentioned it assuming the lines on the reticle/"ruler" need to be true to function. I.e. running it at max magnification. They don't. They can be used as reference lines at any magnification.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. That's true, but without subtension calibration it doesn't work if the shooter is trying to speak the same language as a spotter.
 
It is simple. Use what you want and own the outcome.

Starting from scratch? Look at the current RS soups of the day, 22 CM or 6 CM, with a drop-test passed scope that is in MILs. Go forth and kill stuff legally.

Already have everything established? See if it makes sense financially and emotionally for you to convert everything to MILs.
 
It is simple. Use what you want and own the outcome.

Starting from scratch? Look at the current RS soups of the day, 22 CM or 6 CM, with a drop-test passed scope that is in MILs. Go forth and kill stuff legally.

Already have everything established? See if it makes sense financially and emotionally for you to convert everything to MILs.
Sticky this comment and close it up folks.
 
The yardage is still the yardage. The range finder is already giving you a corrected yardage, factoring in the angle compensation (if it's a properly functioning unit with that feature set).
Horizontal Component of Distance or HCD yardage run through a non-angle compensated solution will work for lower angles of fire, say 15deg or less. Above that threshold, the small angle approximation is no longer valid, and the trajectory solutions done this way will start to develop error. How big that error is will depend on angle and range, and you may not notice it in practice for most reasonable shots. The proper solution for shots at extreme angles and ranges (assuming the solver is set up to handle it correctly and isn't just doing it's own internal HCD calculation) would involve Line of Sight (LOS) distance and angle.
 
Horizontal Component of Distance or HCD yardage run through a non-angle compensated solution will work for lower angles of fire, say 15deg or less. Above that threshold, the small angle approximation is no longer valid, and the trajectory solutions done this way will start to develop error. How big that error is will depend on angle and range, and you may not notice it in practice for most reasonable shots. The proper solution for shots at extreme angles and ranges (assuming the solver is set up to handle it correctly and isn't just doing it's own internal HCD calculation) would involve Line of Sight (LOS) distance and angle.
Correct. You should do some math on what angle and range it takes to cause discrepancy versus standard angle compensated distance measurement (we do this with surveying total stations every week). It's usually so far outside of shooter and gun ability that it's meaningless.
 
Correct. You should do some math on what angle and range it takes to cause discrepancy versus standard angle compensated distance measurement (we do this with surveying total stations every week). It's usually so far outside of shooter and gun ability that it's meaningless.
Yeah I've looked at it in the past but that's about what I'd expect. In any discussions I've seen on the topic it's really only relevant to ELR/artillery type trajectories.
 
I can see how MILs are probably one of those things that are better to try than just pass judgement based on mental gymnastics, so I’ll pick up a scope in MILs sometime this year and play around with it. I can even round up another loaner rifle to put it on. If it’s obviously better it shouldn’t be long and I’ll be swapping out a pile of scopes. Worst case I won’t care for it and there will be a loaner rifle for the kids to play with.

Who has a better description of using correction factors for flat shooting rifles - the Sniper’s Hide dude made my eyes cross trying to follow his math. Maybe he’s refined his delivery since that old video. Idk
 
I can see how MILs are probably one of those things that are better to try than just pass judgement based on mental gymnastics, so I’ll pick up a scope in MILs sometime this year and play around with it. I can even round up another loaner rifle to put it on. If it’s obviously better it shouldn’t be long and I’ll be swapping out a pile of scopes. Worst case I won’t care for it and there will be a loaner rifle for the kids to play with.

Who has a better description of using correction factors for flat shooting rifles - the Sniper’s Hide dude made my eyes cross trying to follow his math. Maybe he’s refined his delivery since that old video. Idk
Here's my simple description of how to use Quickdrop:
  • For a "normal" gun, for all ranges between 200 and 800yds, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2
    • Below 200, just hold dead on
    • Using this rule, you will be within ~4" from 0-800yds in about 1 second with no phone/app/dope card. For most of this distance you are actually much closer.
  • For a "better" gun, same as above, except beyond 400yds, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2 - correction factor
  • For a "worse" gun, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2 + correction
  • What's also cool is you can pick up any gun/cartridge, estimate what level of performance it is on this simple scale, and get really close really fast.
Simple rule of thumb for correction is +/-0.5, but you can tailor it to your gun to reduce error if you want to.
 
I can see how MILs are probably one of those things that are better to try than just pass judgement based on mental gymnastics, so I’ll pick up a scope in MILs sometime this year and play around with it. I can even round up another loaner rifle to put it on. If it’s obviously better it shouldn’t be long and I’ll be swapping out a pile of scopes. Worst case I won’t care for it and there will be a loaner rifle for the kids to play with.

Who has a better description of using correction factors for flat shooting rifles - the Sniper’s Hide dude made my eyes cross trying to follow his math. Maybe he’s refined his delivery since that old video. Idk
I think you’ve said that you don’t currently dial now, but that you zero at 200/300 yards and use holdovers.

If that’s the case, you’re going to see no benefit from mils.

The benefit of mils is for folks who want more precision than Kentucky windage — folks who zero at 100 and dial from there.
 
Here's my simple description of how to use Quickdrop:
  • For a "normal" gun, for all ranges between 200 and 800yds, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2
    • Below 200, just hold dead on
    • Using this rule, you will be within ~4" from 0-800yds in about 1 second with no phone/app/dope card. For most of this distance you are actually much closer.
  • For a "better" gun, same as above, except beyond 400yds, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2 - correction factor
  • For a "worse" gun, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2 + correction
  • What's also cool is you can pick up any gun/cartridge, estimate what level of performance it is on this simple scale, and get really close really fast.
Simple rule of thumb for correction is +/-0.5, but you can tailor it to your gun to reduce error if you want to.
To clarify, this assumes a 100yd zero.

Here is an example of how this plays out:
1752250971028.png

1752250994037.png
 
Horizontal Component of Distance or HCD yardage run through a non-angle compensated solution will work for lower angles of fire, say 15deg or less. Above that threshold, the small angle approximation is no longer valid, and the trajectory solutions done this way will start to develop error. How big that error is will depend on angle and range, and you may not notice it in practice for most reasonable shots. The proper solution for shots at extreme angles and ranges (assuming the solver is set up to handle it correctly and isn't just doing it's own internal HCD calculation) would involve Line of Sight (LOS) distance and angle.
It's not primarily due to the small angle approximation, but to the fact that simple trig only accounts for the effective gravitational distance of the bullet's travel and not the additional drag causing divergence between the trajectory profile of a bullet fired parallel with the Earth's surface and one fired over an equivalent horizontal distance but at a large angle with respect to the Earth's surface (and therefore, a longer LOS distance).

The effect of the small angle approximation is relevant for extreme trajectory corrections, not so much for the angle of fire.
 
Here's my simple description of how to use Quickdrop:
  • For a "normal" gun, for all ranges between 200 and 800yds, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2
    • Below 200, just hold dead on
    • Using this rule, you will be within ~4" from 0-800yds in about 1 second with no phone/app/dope card. For most of this distance you are actually much closer.
  • For a "better" gun, same as above, except beyond 400yds, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2 - correction factor
  • For a "worse" gun, Quickdrop = yards/100 - 2 + correction
  • What's also cool is you can pick up any gun/cartridge, estimate what level of performance it is on this simple scale, and get really close really fast.
Simple rule of thumb for correction is +/-0.5, but you can tailor it to your gun to reduce error if you want to.
GoodGun, average gun and Bad gun are better describers with less subjective overlap for good, avg, bad brackets.

Good gun:
.3-.6 G1 BC, 2800-3000 fps

Average gun:
.3-.6 G1 BC, 2600-2800 fps

Bad gun:
.3-.6G1 BC, 2400-2600 fps

Quick drop use Average Gun as BASE GUN, which is range-2.

450yds -2= 2.5 Mils dial up
800yds -2= 6Mils dial up
279yds -2= .8 Mils dial up

Beyond 7-800 QD starts to diverge depending on your rifle and conditions.

From there, a rifle is BASE(-2) + or - .5

Good Gun, range -2 -.5Mil
Bad Gun, range -2 +.5Mil

This sounds like extra mental math but in function it's not.

Good gun:
450yds -2 =2.5 Mils -.5
Dial 2.5 and back .5 to 2Mils or straight to 2 Mils once you've mastered it.

Bad gun:
450yds -2 =2.5 Mils +.5
Dial 2.5 Mils, dial up another .5 to 3 Mils.

The reason it's taught that way is so Average Gun is the BASE you operate from, the system. Then you add or subtract from the base figure.

It sounds hard until you do it, it's easy once you adjust to operating this way. like anything. it becomes automatic.
 
Posted this in the wrong thread a second ago, darn it...

Well , Ive been convinced. Purchased a mil version of the scope I hunt with and I'm going to try swapping over from MOA to MIL. Sorry to keep beating a dead horse but it's just starting to click how it all works, I feel like Im on the precipise of fully "getting it" and you've all been very helpful getting me there.

Hopefully I'm thinking of this correctly with the quick drop stuff. Im shooting factory 7RM Federal Premium loaded with 168gr Berger Hybrid. Velocity on the box is 2870fps. I have a 20" barrel, so if I plug in 2700fps (thinking box velocity is from a 24", subtracting 40ish fps per inch, plus a suspected fairly slow Tikka barrel) and a .566 G1 BC at my current DA I get the following corrections:

200: -0.50
250: -0.85
300: -1.22
350: -1.62
400: -2.05
450: -2.50
500: -2.96
550: -3.45
600: -3.97
650: -4.50
700: -5.07

So subtracting 2 from the first number in the yardage and using the remaining numbers following the decimal seems to be pretty much dead on, at least from 350yds out to 700yds. That excites me, it can't really be that easy right? I would just need to remember the variances at those lower ranges or likely just hold over using the reticle to measure.
 
Posted this in the wrong thread a second ago, darn it...

Well , Ive been convinced. Purchased a mil version of the scope I hunt with and I'm going to try swapping over from MOA to MIL. Sorry to keep beating a dead horse but it's just starting to click how it all works, I feel like Im on the precipise of fully "getting it" and you've all been very helpful getting me there.

Hopefully I'm thinking of this correctly with the quick drop stuff. Im shooting factory 7RM Federal Premium loaded with 168gr Berger Hybrid. Velocity on the box is 2870fps. I have a 20" barrel, so if I plug in 2700fps (thinking box velocity is from a 24", subtracting 40ish fps per inch, plus a suspected fairly slow Tikka barrel) and a .566 G1 BC at my current DA I get the following corrections:

200: -0.50
250: -0.85
300: -1.22
350: -1.62
400: -2.05
450: -2.50
500: -2.96
550: -3.45
600: -3.97
650: -4.50
700: -5.07

So subtracting 2 from the first number in the yardage and using the remaining numbers following the decimal seems to be pretty much dead on, at least from 350yds out to 700yds. That excites me, it can't really be that easy right? I would just need to remember the variances at those lower ranges or likely just hold over using the reticle to measure.
Not only is it that easy, you're dead on at all those ranges AND all the intermediate ranges down to 10yd resolution! And you're within an acceptable margin of error from 0 to 700+ (within your ability to shoot). And once you figure out your dope and dial in your correction, if the animal moves towards/away from you, you can hold over/under by 0.1mil per 10 yds of movement. I've personally used this trick before, dialed on an animal, got all set, then they started slowly walking, and I slowly corrected as I estimated every 10yds they moved closer to me without having to come out of the scope or fiddle with RF/dials.

But you should measure your actual MV and look up the BC from Berger, or confirm/true your drops at known ranges.
 
Posted this in the wrong thread a second ago, darn it...

Well , Ive been convinced. Purchased a mil version of the scope I hunt with and I'm going to try swapping over from MOA to MIL. Sorry to keep beating a dead horse but it's just starting to click how it all works, I feel like Im on the precipise of fully "getting it" and you've all been very helpful getting me there.

Hopefully I'm thinking of this correctly with the quick drop stuff. Im shooting factory 7RM Federal Premium loaded with 168gr Berger Hybrid. Velocity on the box is 2870fps. I have a 20" barrel, so if I plug in 2700fps (thinking box velocity is from a 24", subtracting 40ish fps per inch, plus a suspected fairly slow Tikka barrel) and a .566 G1 BC at my current DA I get the following corrections:

200: -0.50
250: -0.85
300: -1.22
350: -1.62
400: -2.05
450: -2.50
500: -2.96
550: -3.45
600: -3.97
650: -4.50
700: -5.07

So subtracting 2 from the first number in the yardage and using the remaining numbers following the decimal seems to be pretty much dead on, at least from 350yds out to 700yds. That excites me, it can't really be that easy right? I would just need to remember the variances at those lower ranges or likely just hold over using the reticle to measure.
it IS that easy! Validate zero and drop and go shoot!
 
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