Is there an advantage to mil over MOA?

[ams30gts]

Both are perfectly fine and work the same. I would just stick to what you know.

 

[03machstock]

Either one is fine. If being used properly, the argument of meters vs yards is out the window. They are simply tape measures in different scales. You shouldn’t be saying an inch high at 400 yards, you should be saying .25 min high because you measured it with your scope, and then adjusted with your turrets that are in the same units. F class tends to shoot moa, prs tends to shoot mils, a lot of hunters tend to use moa. If being used improperly ie im 2” high at 100 yards so that means ect. , which is how the vast majority of people do it, Then go with however you think. I have both and use both, but the majority of my zero at 100 and leave it scopes are moa.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

Question: If your bullet drops 38 inches at 400 yards what is the math you do in your head to come up with the mil adjustment quickly.

I've researched online but I can't find a great example.

 

[JakeM51]

Question: If your bullet drops 38 inches at 400 yards what is the math you do in your head to come up with the mil adjustment quickly.

I've researched online but I can't find a great example.

You shoot one shot and then see where it hit with your reticle, and adjust up.
Or change the settings in your app to Mils.

Those same exact things apply to MOA, inches are not MOA.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

You shoot one shot and then see where it hit with your reticle, and adjust up.
Or change the settings in your app to Mils.

Those same exact things apply to MOA, inches are not MOA.

Copy. BUT...if you're hunting and you need to adjust on the fly. What is the math in your head? I hear it's quick to run the math in your head. I honestly haven't used mil and I'm interested. Online references go into detailed history of the angles, arc, etc. I just need Math examples in the field.

**Assuming you have an accurate rifle and already did testing in the off seasoning meaning 1st shot should hit POA with said adjustment.

Thanks

 

[03machstock]

Copy. BUT...if you're hunting and you need to adjust on the fly. What is the math in your head? I hear it's quick to run the math in your head. I honestly haven't used mil and I'm interested. Online references go into detailed history of the angles, arc, etc. I just need Math examples in the field.

**Assuming you have an accurate rifle and already did testing in the off seasoning meaning 1st shot should hit POA with said adjustment.

Thanks

If I were shooting that far at an animal I wouldn’t depend on math, I would depend on DOPE and already know my adjustments out the distance I’d be comfortable shooting.

 

[MHWASH]

Have you thought about getting a custom etched turret?
Then the only thing you'd have to worry about is whether you like to hold off with whole numbers or decimals for wind.

I won't go that route. I tinker with loads too much to be held hostage with a etched turret. Learned that when i used CDS dials.

 

[Rob5589]

Question: If your bullet drops 38 inches at 400 yards what is the math you do in your head to come up with the mil adjustment quickly.

I've researched online but I can't find a great example.

Perfect reason to know your drops before heading afield. One mil at 100 yds is 3.6". So 4 x 3.6 is 14.4. 38 ÷ 14.4 is 2.63 mils.

 

[Matt Cashell]

Both are perfectly fine and work the same. I would just stick to what you know.

Right?

This has to be one of the most overblown arguments ever.

I use both. I don’t have an issue. Is one faster to learn? Maybe. I can’t think of a single shot opportunity while hunting where it would have made a lick of difference.

They are angular measurements. Think of them as such. One is a little coarser than the other. Verify your dope.

I mostly shoot for fun and hunting though.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Question: If your bullet drops 38 inches at 400 yards what is the math you do in your head to come up with the mil adjustment quickly.

I've researched online but I can't find a great example.

Tweak your solver to tell you the drop in a useful way. By and large scopes adjust in moa or mils, that's the only thing you need to know to adjust and shoot

 

[Marbles]

This has to be one of the most overblown arguments ever.

Even as one who has been part of overblowing it, I have to agree. It is the minute differences that are just enough to be real, but not enough to really matter and/or give a clear outcome that lead to the most heated debates.

I also have to eat a little crow, from a shooting only purspective, as long as one has a graduated reticle and can see the impacts, the difference between the two is very minimal. From that shooting purspective, even if someone prefers base 10, MOA can be bastardized sufficiently.

If, one uses angles for other things (cutting trees, etc) or if one wants to understand the math behind the solution, duplex reticles, etc, then it matters more.

 

[Formidilosus]

It also begs another question, if it is too inaccurate to estimate size, why is it accurate enough to call and correct shot placement? If

I’m not sure if that’s an actual question, or if you actually believe they are the same thing?

Finding 1.3 mils for instance in a reticle is very easy- that is a known point. Using a known point (reticle) to find an unknown size (range or inches of antler) is completely different.

Using a reticle and a known target size to find a range; and using a reticle and a known range to find a target size, are functionally the same. Both are fraught with large enough errors in the field on real animals, that consistently using either for more than an emergency is not a winning plan.

How do you determine that the animal is looking at you 90° perfectly? What happens when it’s off a few degree? From above? From the side? In any case, it isn’t a “fast” task and there is nothing lost by using a chart, app, or calculator and getting an answer.

 

[JakeM51]

Copy. BUT...if you're hunting and you need to adjust on the fly. What is the math in your head? I hear it's quick to run the math in your head. I honestly haven't used mil and I'm interested. Online references go into detailed history of the angles, arc, etc. I just need Math examples in the field.

**Assuming you have an accurate rifle and already did testing in the off seasoning meaning 1st shot should hit POA with said adjustment.

Thanks

I have my dope memorized for my home range.
Carry a dope card for every 10-25 yards, or get within a 100 yard line with the dope you have in your head.
There are also mil drops that you can use for different rounds.
Off the top of my head 300 yards is 1.1 mil, 600 yards is 4.0 mils.

 

[Rob5589]

Even as one who has been part of overblowing it, I have to agree. It is the minute differences that are just enough to be real, but not enough to really matter and/or give a clear outcome that lead to the most heated debates.

I also have to eat a little crow, from a shooting only perspective, as long as one has a graduated reticle and can see the impacts, the difference between the two is very minimal. From that shooting perspective, even if someone prefers base 10, MOA can be bastardized sufficiently.

If, one uses angles for other things (cutting trees, etc) or if one wants to understand the math behind the solution, duplex reticles, etc, then it matters more.

I would guess the vast majority of hunters are ranging, dialing, shooting. Very few are using the reticle to actually measure the distance to an animal. That's where I believe people get all twisted up; is it inches or centimeters? Doesn't matter, you are simply dialing to your known distance. If you have someone calling out a miss then you either have to do some math and or have that person knowledgeable with your set up to call out the miss in moa or mil. Familiarity with your system is the important part.

 

[Flyjunky]

I would guess the vast majority of hunters are ranging, dialing, shooting. Very few are using the reticle to actually measure the distance to an animal. That's where I believe people get all twisted up; is it inches or centimeters? Doesn't matter, you are simply dialing to your known distance. If you have someone calling out a miss then you either have to do some math and or have that person knowledgeable with your set up to call out the miss in moa or mil. Familiarity with your system is the important part.

Exactly what I said a few pages ago. Knowing ranges off the top of your head in a hunting situation is meaningless if you’re shooting a distance that requires dialing. Ranging, checking wind, dialing, getting into shooting position…all that takes time. MOA vs Mil makes no difference.

 

[Marbles]

I would guess the vast majority of hunters are ranging, dialing, shooting. Very few are using the reticle to actually measure the distance to an animal. That's where I believe people get all twisted up; is it inches or centimeters? Doesn't matter, you are simply dialing to your known distance. If you have someone calling out a miss then you either have to do some math and or have that person knowledgeable with your set up to call out the miss in moa or mil. Familiarity with your system is the important part.

Well, my idiot brain, before yesterday, would record dope in cm and then try to convert it. It made sense then, now it feels retarded to add that extra step in the field. I'll blame duplex reticles.

 

[MidGAHunter]

Exactly what I said a few pages ago. Knowing ranges off the top of your head in a hunting situation is meaningless if you’re shooting a distance that requires dialing. Ranging, checking wind, dialing, getting into shooting position…all that takes time. MOA vs Mil makes no difference.

Knowing what to dial for a given range rather than checking a dope chart knocks a few seconds off getting your shot off. That can mean the difference in getting a shot and not getting a shot. That's not meaningless.

Knowing what to hold for wind rather than checking a dope chart can knock a few more seconds off. That's not meaningless. Whether Mil or MOA is faster is up to the individual. I will say that I switched from MOA to MILs because I couldn't get a shot off as quick in MOA as I could in MILs. For me, in a pinch the MIL system is faster once i took the time to understand it. That's anything but meaningless.

If you actually practice doing so, the process of going from walking with a pack on to getting into shooting position while gauging wind, checking distance, dialing elevation and holding wind can all be done fairly quickly, especially if not having to check a dope chart for both wind and elevation. To each their own, but I have missed shot opportunities because it took too long to get set up and fully ready. Anything I can do to speed up that process is not meaningless.

 

[Flyjunky]

Knowing what to dial for a given range rather than checking a dope chart knocks a few seconds off getting your shot off. That can mean the difference in getting a shot and not getting a shot. That's not meaningless.

Knowing what to hold for wind rather than checking a dope chart can knock a few more seconds off. That's not meaningless. Whether Mil or MOA is faster is up to the individual. I will say that I switched from MOA to MILs because I couldn't get a shot off as quick in MOA as I could in MILs. For me, in a pinch the MIL system is faster once i took the time to understand it. That's anything but meaningless.

If you actually practice doing so, the process of going from walking with a pack on to getting into shooting position while gauging wind, checking distance, dialing elevation and holding wind can all be done fairly quickly, especially if not having to check a dope chart for both wind and elevation. To each their own, but I have missed shot opportunities because it took too long to get set up and fully ready. Anything I can do to speed up that process is not meaningless.

I guess I just don't understand or been in a situation where if I'm shooting 400+ yards that 1-2 seconds makes a difference. If an animal is moving time might be a factor but I'm not shooting at moving animals at those distances.

With both my 6.5-284 and 300wm the bc's for each are in the .35's. With my muzzle velocity it equates for .4 moa per 100 yards in a full value 10mph wind. Super easy to calculate that I can do in my head without hesitation. Like you, I'm always paying attention to the wind when I'm out in the field. Honestly though, out to 700 yards my br4 gives me all the info I need under most circumstances so it's super fast and I don't need to do any calculations most times but I have it in my head if I need it.

Do you use a rangefinder?

 

[MidGAHunter]

I guess I just don't understand or been in a situation where if I'm shooting 400+ yards that 1-2 seconds makes a difference. If an animal is moving time might be a factor but I'm not shooting at moving animals at those distances.

With both my 6.5-284 and 300wm the bc's for each are in the .35's. With my muzzle velocity it equates for .4 moa per 100 yards in a full value 10mph wind. Super easy to calculate that I can do in my head without hesitation. Like you, I'm always paying attention to the wind when I'm out in the field. Honestly though, out to 700 yards my br4 gives me all the info I need under most circumstances so it's super fast and I don't need to do any calculations most times but I have it in my head if I need it.

Do you use a rangefinder?

@Flyjunky yes i use a rangefinder and i have incorporated that into my practice such that it is very quick and allows me (without checking a dope chart) to dial elevation as im getting set up. A few seconds (looking at a dope chart) can be the difference in getting a shot off on that big bull that pauses briefly in a break in the thick oak brush vs watching him disappear, never to be seen again. That happens to you (it did me) you will do everything you can to get faster while still being accurate/precise. Switching to MILs, learning my dope, and practice have helped me with that.

 

[Flyjunky]

@Flyjunky yes i use a rangefinder and i have incorporated that into my practice such that it is very quick and allows me (without checking a dope chart) to dial elevation as im getting set up. A few seconds (looking at a dope chart) can be the difference in getting a shot off on that big bull that pauses briefly in a break in the thick oak brush vs watching him disappear, never to be seen again. That happens to you (it did me) you will do everything you can to get faster while still being accurate/precise. Switching to MILs, learning my dope, and practice have helped me with that.

I get what you're saying but I don't use a dope card my drop/wind calc is done in my br4 most times, or I can do it in my head as I'm getting set (no different than you using mils in your head). So, how is it that mils would be faster for me? We get our drop via rangefinder and once I know the range I will have my wind calculated by my .4 method if I don't have my rangefinder preset to wind direction.

Either system can be fast as we need it to be, it just comes down to getting familiar with it. For some people it might be faster for them to go mils, for others such as myself, I don't know how mils could be any faster.

To each their own and that's why these debates will never end.